Anonymous wrote:Because people are snobs. If one doesn't go to college, they are deemed as "uneducated" by those of the DCUM demographic, most parents don't want their kids to be viewed as uneducated so they push college, even if economically their child could be served just as well by pursuing vocation training.

But by definition, in comparison to people who are college-educated, you ARE "uneducated" if you did not get a higher education. ??? I don't understand how this can be a disputed fact.

I mean if it makes you feel insulted to have someone "think" that you are not educated, then maybe it is important for you to get an education. For some, that doesn't matter. So I think there is your answer. It sure makes a lot more sense to me than trying to force us all to pretend an uneducated population of people is educated just to spare their feelings.

Anonymous wrote:You can thank Obama for perpetuating that college is THE path to success. He saw it as equalizing but it really meant shaming those who want a different path.

I am certain I will get flamed for this comment, but Michelle Obama’s college signing day thing is really problematic. I really wish we’d start celebrating, encouraging, and making more known paths that are outside the traditional four year college route. Many of these paths are just as lucrative and rewarding, and more obtainable. They are just as worthy of celebration as those with a $100K or more price tag.

You can thank Obama for perpetuating that college is THE path to success. He saw it as equalizing but it really meant shaming those who want a different path.

If Op doesn't want to provide a college degree that's a personal decision. Don't understand why Op tries to be the champion for the cause of less education.

Because most leaders only push what they did and the overwhelmingly people in leadership today have at least a 4 year degree

You need a lower middle and upper class for a society to survive. There are millions of jobs in the US that still don't require a college degree.

Do we? Most developed countries have a steady state of 40% of population having GRADUATED with a college degree.

25 years ago England stated they wanted this to be higher, to be 60%. Back then university was 100% taxpayer funded. They got to their 60% figure 15 or so years later but the results have been a disaster:
* Tons of new Tier 3 universities sprung up
* Uni is now 33-50% taxpayer funded, rest student must pay (I actually agree with this alignment/ development)
* Tons of nonsense majors/ degrees that kids graduated with
* 15-20% unemployment rate amongst age 20-30 most of the last decade.

And now with brexit, the trade ppl from continental EU leaving you have all the nonsense left with no jobs and no marketable skills or academic knowledge. But boy, they got their 60% of UK citizen pop to graduate with some sort of degree. Puke.

At least they do a weed out for the Oxbridge by having A level tests at age 15. If you don't pass A levels you don't get access to an additional two, very rigorous "high school" grades. Only way to apply to Oxbridge college, or LSE, imperial, etc. (Tier 1 uni's), is to pass A-levels, do well on A-level classes, get good tests/grades and get in. Very merit-based by then, none of this social engineering stuff like here in the States. IIT, Oxbridge, RUssia, Germany - top uni's are merit-based to get in. You must have the mental horsepower and you must prove it, continuously. Even your uni interview is a maths test on the blackboard. You are not sitting there talking about why you want to go to Christ's College and study XYZ and save the world. You are being tested, again.

No college degree needed for my job. Many around me w/out a degree. I was making enough to support myself at 23, affording my own apt in DMV
But I -never- would have gotten the next job, without a Bachelors degree.

Because people are snobs. If one doesn't go to college, they are deemed as "uneducated" by those of the DCUM demographic, most parents don't want their kids to be viewed as uneducated so they push college, even if economically their child could be served just as well by pursuing vocation training.

As a C student in HS from very low income disfunctional family in America I still have a right to go to college. This is not Japan or Germany. Guess what a C plus student college as family still dead broke. From there I still have a right to go Grad school by then I was working and things were good home. Now I live in a 6,000 square foot home on a block full of doctors and lawyers. That is what makes America the best County . In Japan or Germany I would be a janitor as I would not been allowed to go to college.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We don't need to start tracking kids as young as middle school but by the high school, that fair. Trades needs to be presented as a real option. We also need more options for post secondary education. We should bring back AA/AS as a real degree not just as a stepping stone to a BA/BS. An Associates can be a kind of white collar vocational training degree for paralegals, residential real estate, small business/property management, etc. It would teach people what they need to know for a specific job. There should also be an option for European style 3 year undergrad degree in a specific field. Students can either choose that or traditional American undergrad format.

There are multiple avenues for success- higher education should reflect that.

Agreed. Tracking as early as middle school means that a kid's future ability to attend universiry is determined by his or her performance in elwmentary school which is absurd. A lot of kids who are not great students in elementary end up being great students later on (& vice versa).

there are plenty of possibilities between the german and american option. you don't need to start tracking in middle school to limit the number of people who go to college.

Anonymous wrote:Well, I didn't learn any real critical thinking skills until I went to college. Literature, philosophy, writing, foreign languages -- they all helped shape who I am today. That knowledge gives me context when I'm making decisions, both at work and in my personal life. I didn't get much of that in my K-12 education. So I've always thought of college as critical.

I agree with this. College not only provides the education necessary for many professional careers, but it also teaches critical thinking skills. The exposure to a wide variety of subjects and ways of thinking is so important for a well-rounded education. Community colleges and trade schools are great but they can't match what a 4 year college or university can offer in this regard. I will be forever grateful for the grants, work-study, and student loans (now paid off) which, along with my parents' support, allowed me to complete my degree and become successful in my career and in my personal life.

That said, not every student has the aptitude or the interest for the traditional 4-year college or university education so it is counterproductive to steer these kids toward college. Instead, they need to explore their interests and abilities and determine what career training to pursue, with a focus on those careers that are in demand. There are so many opportunities in healthcare, advanced manufacturing, and the trades that can lead to a well-paying and stable job. The bottom line is that some form of education, training, or credential beyond the high school level is absolutely essential - whether that's a 4-year degree, a trade school, a certificate program, apprenticing with a union, or joining the military. Just graduating high school is not enough.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I don't think people like the idea of someone's future being narrowed down for them while they are in their teens.

This. My kids are going to college, absolutely. We value higher education. After college they can become anything they want. They can become a welder, electrician, plumber, an entrepreneur ... anything. I'm paying for college. If you can do this as a parent, it would be foolish not to.

I don't understand this attitude/POV. If a kid is keen on welding (as an example), why not encourage a year or two of specialized training/apprenticeship and spend the money on tools and starting a business. What can you learn in college that is specific to welding? Unless your kid wants to study metallurgy and is willing to grapple with physical chemistry, material science, operations research, basic physics and statistics etc., in which case go to college.

The simple question that every student should ask every day is what am I learning and how can I use it to do what I want to do? If you can't answer that you don't belong in college. If your parents want you to attend college regardless, then enjoy the beer and co-eds, but it's a waste.

I'm not the PP you are responding to here, but I share PP's "attitude" on the value add of a college education. And the best answer I have to offer here is simply that a college education is not[i] a trade school. And that is where we differ, I think.
In my view, a college education it exposes you (at least in the US college system--first couple of years before you narrow in on courses that are designed to focus in on your degree field) to a whole world of theories, ideas, philosophers, how to think about a problem and consider various points of view, broad grasp of history, the poetry of writing/literature, art history/appreciation, basic psychology of human thought and evolution...all things that many people view as valuable to being an informed and enlightened person in the world. It's just cool to KNOW stuff and makes you a tad more interesting to talk to because when you have opinions, it is now based on something other than your own personal experience--whether or not you "use" what you learn in college to earn a living is irrelevant to why my family supports getting a college education. It just makes you a more well-rounded person with a greater depth of understanding about the world in which we live.
Plus...you'll totally beat your friends at Jeopardy.

That's all fine and dandy except you forget that college costs money. Going into thousands of dollars of debt just to beat your friends at jeopardy and become enlightened is just not something we should be supporting.

Agree; college used to be acknowledged to be a luxury good for the elite. I agree that we as a society are much better off if we educate all of our highly intellectual kids regardless of income, but it is a waste to think this is appropriate for everyone. And frankly, this makes education more expensive for everyone who can benefit from college as tuitions are raised to cover more financial aid, etc. for people who will not end up contributing the value of their education back to society.

Where is the data on what happens if you sign-up for college?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I don't think people like the idea of someone's future being narrowed down for them while they are in their teens.

This. My kids are going to college, absolutely. We value higher education. After college they can become anything they want. They can become a welder, electrician, plumber, an entrepreneur ... anything. I'm paying for college. If you can do this as a parent, it would be foolish not to.

I don't understand this attitude/POV. If a kid is keen on welding (as an example), why not encourage a year or two of specialized training/apprenticeship and spend the money on tools and starting a business. What can you learn in college that is specific to welding? Unless your kid wants to study metallurgy and is willing to grapple with physical chemistry, material science, operations research, basic physics and statistics etc., in which case go to college.

The simple question that every student should ask every day is what am I learning and how can I use it to do what I want to do? If you can't answer that you don't belong in college. If your parents want you to attend college regardless, then enjoy the beer and co-eds, but it's a waste.

I'm not the PP you are responding to here, but I share PP's "attitude" on the value add of a college education. And the best answer I have to offer here is simply that a college education is not[i] a trade school. And that is where we differ, I think.
In my view, a college education it exposes you (at least in the US college system--first couple of years before you narrow in on courses that are designed to focus in on your degree field) to a whole world of theories, ideas, philosophers, how to think about a problem and consider various points of view, broad grasp of history, the poetry of writing/literature, art history/appreciation, basic psychology of human thought and evolution...all things that many people view as valuable to being an informed and enlightened person in the world. It's just cool to KNOW stuff and makes you a tad more interesting to talk to because when you have opinions, it is now based on something other than your own personal experience--whether or not you "use" what you learn in college to earn a living is irrelevant to why my family supports getting a college education. It just makes you a more well-rounded person with a greater depth of understanding about the world in which we live.
Plus...you'll totally beat your friends at Jeopardy.

But how much is too much to pay for that luxury? Should people want that more buying a house, or getting married and having a child (before it's too late)?

The debt is crushing.

Well, I didn't learn any real critical thinking skills until I went to college. Literature, philosophy, writing, foreign languages -- they all helped shape who I am today. That knowledge gives me context when I'm making decisions, both at work and in my personal life. I didn't get much of that in my K-12 education. So I've always thought of college as critical. My son wants to be a police officer, which I think is fantastic. I still want him to get a four year degree.

However, he is getting much more of those skills and that type of knowledge while still in K-12. So perhaps it is no longer as important to go to college.

The debt is crippling. And I'm very sad that is such a barrier these days. Most of the middle class folks I know who have gone to college recently, did so on a part-time basis. It took them 8-9 years to finish, while working full-time, specifically to avoid that debt.