Anonymous
03/06/2018 05:11
Subject: MCPS Middle School writing: do you think expectations are in line with state standards
Anonymous wrote:^ the plus side to catholic school is smaller class sizes that allow teachers to teach better bc they can fine tune their plans to suit their students. Grammar instruction in most schools and your obsession with it will lead your child to mediocre writing.
I'm not the poster you're responding to, but I am another grammar supporter.
I agree that good writing goes far beyond grammar. However, I think that good grammar is a vital foundation that the other skills build on and allow a writer's talents to be displayed for best effect. Errors can distract from the message the author is trying to convey. In extreme cases, such errors can make it difficult to even understand the author's intent.
Here's an essay written by a college professor, Tina Blue, about the importance of grammar and the modern student's general lack of proficiency. (MCPS is not alone in it's neglect of grammar.)
http://irascibleprofessor.com/comments-06-30-04.htm
Here's a link that gives some background about Tina Blue.
http://grammartips.homestead.com/whoami.html
Anonymous
03/06/2018 04:16
Subject: MCPS Middle School writing: do you think expectations are in line with state standards
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The curriculum has been dumbed down. Kids are given a ridiculous rubric. Nobody is actually teaching kids how to write. Plus, mcps abandoned grammar instruction.
Do you have a previous MCPS MS curriculum to compare it to?
Yes. My oldest child was pre 2.0. My second was a 2.0 Guinea pig. Third is full 2.0.
Three relatives and several close friends are mcps teachers with decades under their belts.
Plus, I've heard it straight from the mouths of my kids' teachers. When commenting on the lack of grammar and writing instruction,teachers immediately responded by saying that the curriculum does not include it. They try to supplement. Whatever.
My kids were pre-2.0. My oldest is now in college. I can tell you the problems with the curriculum are longstanding. I heard complaints from the experienced parents before DC started K.
I agree that the problem with grammar instruction (or lack thereof) is a curriculum problem. I was on a curriculum committee (elementary). I read curriculum. I talked to the creators of the curriculum. The lack of systematic instruction, the tendency to only correct a portion of mistakes on student essays, etc., are coming from the curriculum department. Book selection is largely left up to the teacher, but I was told that the curricular department thinks it's fine to teach the same book multiple times from different approaches.
As the previous poster said, some teachers supplement. If you're child has had good grammar instruction, you should thank the teacher. In fact, ask the good teachers what they think of the curriculum. Tell them you've heard all sorts of stories on inadequate grammar that you just can't understand because your child's experience has been so great. The teacher will probably be too diplomatic to criticize MCPS, but I'd be highly surprised if they lauded the curriculum. I know I've been told multiple times by teachers (elementary through high school) that even though the curriculum wasn't strong in grammar they felt it was important and covered it anyway. One teacher used her own child's private school grammar curriculum to teach her MCPS class.
Anonymous
03/05/2018 23:50
Subject: MCPS Middle School writing: do you think expectations are in line with state standards
Agree that MS curriculum in MCPS stinks. The literature Profiles (what I used to call a book report) are formulaic, and teaches kids to use the same paper, just change the name of the main character, the page number and a sentence or two and it's perfect. Add any new details and you get dinged for "not being concise."
I can tell you that in HS (so far, DD is a freshman in a magnet), it's better!
I can tell you that in HS (so far, DD is a freshman in a magnet), it's better!
Anonymous
03/05/2018 23:33
Subject: Re:MCPS Middle School writing: do you think expectations are in line with state standards
Anonymous wrote:Now though... Well, now we don't have any alternatives except leaving the system. MCPS has one point of entry for the magnets and only that. "Advanced English" and "advanced world studies" seem to focus on making the students regurgitate one page essays in a precise format for structure, but not for grammar. My kid had "could of" and "ment" on the last paper and they weren't marked wrong. But points were taken off putting the explanatory quotes after the points they were supporting and not before.
awful that a teacher wouldn’t correct those mistakes. how are the kids supposed to learn?
also, to another pp, i remember reading that rats of nimh book in 4th or 5th grade. it’s recommended for 5th grade. i would hope that 6th graders would be reading something more difficult.
Anonymous
03/05/2018 22:55
Subject: Re:MCPS Middle School writing: do you think expectations are in line with state standards
Now though... Well, now we don't have any alternatives except leaving the system. MCPS has one point of entry for the magnets and only that. "Advanced English" and "advanced world studies" seem to focus on making the students regurgitate one page essays in a precise format for structure, but not for grammar. My kid had "could of" and "ment" on the last paper and they weren't marked wrong. But points were taken off putting the explanatory quotes after the points they were supporting and not before.
Anonymous
03/05/2018 22:49
Subject: Re:MCPS Middle School writing: do you think expectations are in line with state standards
This may out me since I've mentioned it to everyone I know at least twice, but sixth grade, TPMS. They just spent three months reading the Rats of NIMH.
It's a book my child read before.
In third grade. At a DCPS.
I'm fairly furious. My DC read in it (again) in an hour and has been twiddling thumbs for the last three months in class as far as I can tell. Since English is their strongest and favorite subject and last year they were writing five page essays, it's even more outrageous.
Trying to push stuff at home, but I'm pissed about the rigor. TPMS manages to give them math every day (which doesn't seem to be helpful either) but English is a joke. We didn't try for the magnet because I thought TPMS was the better school.
It's a book my child read before.
In third grade. At a DCPS.
I'm fairly furious. My DC read in it (again) in an hour and has been twiddling thumbs for the last three months in class as far as I can tell. Since English is their strongest and favorite subject and last year they were writing five page essays, it's even more outrageous.
Trying to push stuff at home, but I'm pissed about the rigor. TPMS manages to give them math every day (which doesn't seem to be helpful either) but English is a joke. We didn't try for the magnet because I thought TPMS was the better school.
Anonymous
03/05/2018 22:02
Subject: MCPS Middle School writing: do you think expectations are in line with state standards
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
Then we'll keep our daughter in public school, but I'm doubtful he'll think it's fine. When I mentioned to him that MCPS doesn't include grammar in the curriculum, he was dumbstruck. He keeps thinking that maybe MCPS will change things in the next few years ... haha.
Given that your child hasn't even started school yet, you seem quite certain about what it's going to be like. Maybe consider keeping an open mind?
The kids are learning where to put periods and commas somehow. If it's not in the curriculum, how are they learning it?
learning where to put periods and commas is the bare minimum to ensure basic literacy. kids should be learning the full array of grammar rules.
Which grammar rules? I mean this sincerely. Which grammar rules do you think kids should learn, when should they learn them, and how should the teachers teach them?
They should learning the parts of speech (and not just nouns, adjectives, and verbs). They should be diagramming sentences, which is not only great for developing logic skills, but also for learning grammar. Too many people have no idea what a prepositional phrase is. They can barely identify an adverb.
More broadly, kids should be learning how to expand their vocabularies, in part by learning etymology. When I was in public middle school, I took Latin, which helped me expand my English vocabulary by teaching me the roots of many of our words. It also helped me learn English grammar in a much more disciplined, systemic manner.
If our children are to succeed in their adult lives, they need to develop an appreciation for precise and correct written and spoken language.
I believe the only schools in this area are Catholic schools. Would bet JDS does this too.
Most MS and HS don’t dwell long on grammar. It is taught in brief lessons or as needed. Public and private.
Anonymous
03/05/2018 22:00
Subject: MCPS Middle School writing: do you think expectations are in line with state standards
^ the plus side to catholic school is smaller class sizes that allow teachers to teach better bc they can fine tune their plans to suit their students. Grammar instruction in most schools and your obsession with it will lead your child to mediocre writing.
Anonymous
03/05/2018 21:58
Subject: MCPS Middle School writing: do you think expectations are in line with state standards
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
Then we'll keep our daughter in public school, but I'm doubtful he'll think it's fine. When I mentioned to him that MCPS doesn't include grammar in the curriculum, he was dumbstruck. He keeps thinking that maybe MCPS will change things in the next few years ... haha.
Given that your child hasn't even started school yet, you seem quite certain about what it's going to be like. Maybe consider keeping an open mind?
The kids are learning where to put periods and commas somehow. If it's not in the curriculum, how are they learning it?
learning where to put periods and commas is the bare minimum to ensure basic literacy. kids should be learning the full array of grammar rules.
Which grammar rules? I mean this sincerely. Which grammar rules do you think kids should learn, when should they learn them, and how should the teachers teach them?
They should learning the parts of speech (and not just nouns, adjectives, and verbs). They should be diagramming sentences, which is not only great for developing logic skills, but also for learning grammar. Too many people have no idea what a prepositional phrase is. They can barely identify an adverb.
More broadly, kids should be learning how to expand their vocabularies, in part by learning etymology. When I was in public middle school, I took Latin, which helped me expand my English vocabulary by teaching me the roots of many of our words. It also helped me learn English grammar in a much more disciplined, systemic manner.
If our children are to succeed in their adult lives, they need to develop an appreciation for precise and correct written and spoken language.
I believe the only schools in this area are Catholic schools. Would bet JDS does this too.
Anonymous
03/05/2018 21:57
Subject: MCPS Middle School writing: do you think expectations are in line with state standards
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
Then we'll keep our daughter in public school, but I'm doubtful he'll think it's fine. When I mentioned to him that MCPS doesn't include grammar in the curriculum, he was dumbstruck. He keeps thinking that maybe MCPS will change things in the next few years ... haha.
Given that your child hasn't even started school yet, you seem quite certain about what it's going to be like. Maybe consider keeping an open mind?
The kids are learning where to put periods and commas somehow. If it's not in the curriculum, how are they learning it?
Actually, they don’t learn this. MCPS moves quickly through curriculum, a mile wide and an inch deep. Moved to Catholic; they may go 4/4 mile or even 2/3, but they go a foot deep. Would rather that approach.
Anonymous
03/05/2018 12:31
Subject: MCPS Middle School writing: do you think expectations are in line with state standards
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The curriculum has been dumbed down. Kids are given a ridiculous rubric. Nobody is actually teaching kids how to write. Plus, mcps abandoned grammar instruction.
terrifying. how the hell are these kids supposed to compete in today's world without decent writing and grammar instruction?
this is a big reason why we're paying for K at our preschool program (which luckily offers a true K year). might as well delay the dumbed down curriculum until 1st grade. DH doesn't follow these debates as closely as I do, and thinks DD will be fine next year ... I keep telling him otherwise. it might take her going through 1st grade for him to realize how bad the situation actually is, and get on board with private school. I get that he doesn't want to pay for it, and wants to support public education--I do, too--but what are we supposed to do when MCPS won't even teach grammar? we can fight and fight with the administration, but ultimately they're going to make the boneheaded decisions they want to.
You’re basing a lot on some random anonymous poster’s comments.
these comments only provide more evidence to back up what I've read in MCPS's own curriculum materials and heard in person from parents with kids in the later ES and MS grades.
I’m an English teacher (not mcps) and have been impressed with the work dd has been doing in elementary in mcps. I can’t speak to how middle school will be.
Talk to some more parents, then.
What if your daughter goes to first grade, and your husband thinks it's fine?
Then we'll keep our daughter in public school, but I'm doubtful he'll think it's fine. When I mentioned to him that MCPS doesn't include grammar in the curriculum, he was dumbstruck. He keeps thinking that maybe MCPS will change things in the next few years ... haha.
I’m an English teacher (not mcps) and have been impressed with the work dd has been doing in elementary in mcps. I can’t speak to how middle school will be.
Anonymous
03/05/2018 12:30
Subject: MCPS Middle School writing: do you think expectations are in line with state standards
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The curriculum has been dumbed down. Kids are given a ridiculous rubric. Nobody is actually teaching kids how to write. Plus, mcps abandoned grammar instruction.
terrifying. how the hell are these kids supposed to compete in today's world without decent writing and grammar instruction?
this is a big reason why we're paying for K at our preschool program (which luckily offers a true K year). might as well delay the dumbed down curriculum until 1st grade. DH doesn't follow these debates as closely as I do, and thinks DD will be fine next year ... I keep telling him otherwise. it might take her going through 1st grade for him to realize how bad the situation actually is, and get on board with private school. I get that he doesn't want to pay for it, and wants to support public education--I do, too--but what are we supposed to do when MCPS won't even teach grammar? we can fight and fight with the administration, but ultimately they're going to make the boneheaded decisions they want to.
You’re basing a lot on some random anonymous poster’s comments.
these comments only provide more evidence to back up what I've read in MCPS's own curriculum materials and heard in person from parents with kids in the later ES and MS grades.
I’m an English teacher (not mcps) and have been impressed with the work dd has been doing in elementary in mcps. I can’t speak to how middle school will be.
Talk to some more parents, then.
What if your daughter goes to first grade, and your husband thinks it's fine?
Then we'll keep our daughter in public school, but I'm doubtful he'll think it's fine. When I mentioned to him that MCPS doesn't include grammar in the curriculum, he was dumbstruck. He keeps thinking that maybe MCPS will change things in the next few years ... haha.
Anonymous
03/05/2018 12:30
Subject: Re:MCPS Middle School writing: do you think expectations are in line with state standards
Anonymous wrote:This is why I sent my child to a Catholic middle school. The writing in public school leaves a lot to be desired. STEM is better at his Catholic school too.
Yeah, this is often not the case. Catholic schools often lack funds and so they don't have the resources that even publics have. I'm not saying this is true of your school, I'm just saying that it doesn't always work this way.
Anonymous
03/05/2018 12:18
Subject: MCPS Middle School writing: do you think expectations are in line with state standards
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
Then we'll keep our daughter in public school, but I'm doubtful he'll think it's fine. When I mentioned to him that MCPS doesn't include grammar in the curriculum, he was dumbstruck. He keeps thinking that maybe MCPS will change things in the next few years ... haha.
Given that your child hasn't even started school yet, you seem quite certain about what it's going to be like. Maybe consider keeping an open mind?
The kids are learning where to put periods and commas somehow. If it's not in the curriculum, how are they learning it?
learning where to put periods and commas is the bare minimum to ensure basic literacy. kids should be learning the full array of grammar rules.
Which grammar rules? I mean this sincerely. Which grammar rules do you think kids should learn, when should they learn them, and how should the teachers teach them?
NP, and I am also being sincere. I think kids should explicitly learn most, if not all, rules pertaining to their language. Parts of speech, types of verbs, subject-verb agreement, main and subordinate clauses, etc, etc. My child has always been an ES/P/A student with high MAP and PARCC scores but in 5th grade she still can't name all parts of speech and is having trouble with more complex punctuation. Yes, the school did tell them to put a period at the end of the sentence, but anything more complex than that?
They don't do that anymore and it shows in our kids' writing, or whatever passes for writing these days.
I'm the PP who was pushing grammar rules (and to whom the other PP's question was directed): thank you! It's astonishing to me how many people don't understand basic English grammar rules, including how to use a semi-colon, the difference between its and it's, how to use who and whom, etc. This isn't about sounded like a pretentious douche; it's about learning the rules of the primary language we all speak in this country. The first impression most people make in work and social settings is shaped significantly by how they speak and write. Our kids need to learn how to present themselves in their best light; learning to speak and write correctly is a huge part of that.
Anonymous
03/05/2018 12:14
Subject: MCPS Middle School writing: do you think expectations are in line with state standards
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
Then we'll keep our daughter in public school, but I'm doubtful he'll think it's fine. When I mentioned to him that MCPS doesn't include grammar in the curriculum, he was dumbstruck. He keeps thinking that maybe MCPS will change things in the next few years ... haha.
Given that your child hasn't even started school yet, you seem quite certain about what it's going to be like. Maybe consider keeping an open mind?
The kids are learning where to put periods and commas somehow. If it's not in the curriculum, how are they learning it?
learning where to put periods and commas is the bare minimum to ensure basic literacy. kids should be learning the full array of grammar rules.
Which grammar rules? I mean this sincerely. Which grammar rules do you think kids should learn, when should they learn them, and how should the teachers teach them?
NP, and I am also being sincere. I think kids should explicitly learn most, if not all, rules pertaining to their language. Parts of speech, types of verbs, subject-verb agreement, main and subordinate clauses, etc, etc. My child has always been an ES/P/A student with high MAP and PARCC scores but in 5th grade she still can't name all parts of speech and is having trouble with more complex punctuation. Yes, the school did tell them to put a period at the end of the sentence, but anything more complex than that?
They don't do that anymore and it shows in our kids' writing, or whatever passes for writing these days.