Anonymous wrote:Thanks to the victims who took the time explaining the dynamic of abuse. It must be hard to be a victim and have most people around you question the fact that you were abused.

I have a friend that I am particularly worried about, but I am worried about her husband as well.

She thinks that he is abusive, and he thinks that she is the abusive one. They have some mutual friends who think that she is the abusive one and others who think that he is, depending on whose side of the story they hear

She wanted to go to therapy, and he doesn't, and I encouraged her to keep asking him to go with her. I told her to go by herself if he did not want to, but she refused.

Now she does not even want to see a therapist with him anymore. She claims that she is done with the marriage, but they still live in the same house and sleep on the same bed. They fight less often, but they still fight and make all kinds of horrible threats to each other.

I am very hesitant to ask her to leave because they have children who are very well taken care of emotionally and in every other way by both parents. I am concerned that if they divorced, the dynamics with the kids will change.

What would you tell her besides encouraging her to go see a therapist?

Divorce in environments of abuse is often better for children because it breaks up the dysfunction dynamic. Other stressors are introduced (adjusting to a family split), but there are resources that help families go through this to lessen the long term effects and help with short term adjustments. Given that it is clear that there is emotional or psychological abuse occurring, I don’t know that I would agree the kids are “very well taken care of emotionally and in every other way”. If she won’t see a therapist, perhaps the DH will. Or perhaps they could all see a family counselor for “parenting guidance” on how to lessen the impact of the heir fighting with their two kids. However you can get them to a chair, but a clinical psychologist would be great for picking up on all possible underlying implications and supporting all of the family.

You only have to read this board to know why some people don't take it seriously. To be certain, emotional abuse is a serious matter. But your fellow women who tend to overuse the "abuse" label have created a boy-who-cried-wolf syndrome.

I could ask, why isn't it taken seriously when a man claims any kind of abuse from his spouse? One reason is, a man in a similar situation will rarely cry abuse. His wife may be verbally abusing him every day but it's rare that a guy will claim he is being abused.

OTOH, simple arguments where a man raised his voice, or otherwise got upset are now labeled, by women, as emotional or verbal abuse far too often IMO.

Then their are all the other types of abuse that were listed in another thread from, financial abuse to technological abuse and perhaps you can see how a reader here may grow a little tired of the term being overused and applied to nearly any situation.

Emotional abuse is real and it is serious. I would say, from experience, that it is often worse than other forms of abuse. Physical wounds heal, but you never really forget the things that are said to you. Hurtful words can cause lingering pain, self-doubt, and fear. I know that things that have been said to me are replayed over and over in my mind, making me feel small or insignificant. I am a Christian, though, and knowing that I am significant in God's eyes has given me healing and hope. One thing that really has helped me is writing. I try to get by myself for a bit and I write down everything...the bad memories and the new thoughts. As I write it down, I'm able to process it better and move forward. I can't change what happened, but I know that I don't want it to continue to have power over me. That was the past. I want a different future.

Anonymous wrote:Thanks to the victims who took the time explaining the dynamic of abuse. It must be hard to be a victim and have most people around you question the fact that you were abused.

I have a friend that I am particularly worried about, but I am worried about her husband as well.

She thinks that he is abusive, and he thinks that she is the abusive one. They have some mutual friends who think that she is the abusive one and others who think that he is, depending on whose side of the story they hear

She wanted to go to therapy, and he doesn't, and I encouraged her to keep asking him to go with her. I told her to go by herself if he did not want to, but she refused.

Now she does not even want to see a therapist with him anymore. She claims that she is done with the marriage, but they still live in the same house and sleep on the same bed. They fight less often, but they still fight and make all kinds of horrible threats to each other.

I am very hesitant to ask her to leave because they have children who are very well taken care of emotionally and in every other way by both parents. I am concerned that if they divorced, the dynamics with the kids will change.

What would you tell her besides encouraging her to go see a therapist?

You are part of the problem if you are encouraging them to stay together for the sake of the kids. Witnessing verbal or emotional abuse is as damaging as witnessing physical abuse. kids are internalizing everything they see and hear parents do as a kind of model for their own behaviour, which then messes up the kids' social relationships. You are naive if you think this kind of abuse isn'also directed at the kids sometimes - it just probably doesn't come out when you are around. That is part of the nature of abuse; the abuser wants to be seen as a good guy to others.

My mom was verbally abusive to my Dad. It resulted in me being in several emotionally abusive relationships in my 20s and 30s. The second one, I had kids. I finally woke up and smelled the coffee, but not until after a lot of damage had been done to me and my life. I am still forced to interact w/ my kids' father, and it has taken over a decade for me to identify the abuse and understand it. I have consciously had to build better boundaries and be less accommodating and stop walking on eggshells. I live as a single Mom with full custody of two kids. This situation has wrecked my finances and my kids do not have fancy clothes and vacations or a big fancy house. And yet, they are far happier and healthier than if I had stayed. I am determined not to let them grow up with the burden of emotional abuse.

Thanks to the victims who took the time explaining the dynamic of abuse. It must be hard to be a victim and have most people around you question the fact that you were abused.

I have a friend that I am particularly worried about, but I am worried about her husband as well.

She thinks that he is abusive, and he thinks that she is the abusive one. They have some mutual friends who think that she is the abusive one and others who think that he is, depending on whose side of the story they hear

She wanted to go to therapy, and he doesn't, and I encouraged her to keep asking him to go with her. I told her to go by herself if he did not want to, but she refused.

Now she does not even want to see a therapist with him anymore. She claims that she is done with the marriage, but they still live in the same house and sleep on the same bed. They fight less often, but they still fight and make all kinds of horrible threats to each other.

I am very hesitant to ask her to leave because they have children who are very well taken care of emotionally and in every other way by both parents. I am concerned that if they divorced, the dynamics with the kids will change.

What would you tell her besides encouraging her to go see a therapist?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have to be honest that I may be guilty of this.

In my very limited and shallow experience, the people whom I know who have complained about emotional abuse usually say and do similar things to their spouses. And when you get down to it(in the cases that I know of) it is difficult to determine who is the victim and who is the abuser. Both spouses seem like victims and abusers to me, and I would usually suggest counselling.

Personally, I would leave an emotional abusive relationship fast, but I am not one to advise others to leave because in the cases that I know of, both spouses were emotionally abusive. So I figure maybe there is a way to teach them how to treat each other through therapy.

Physical abuse seems more dangerous, and usually it is clear that one spouse is doing most or all of the physical abuse and the other is taking the heat..

I'm a survivor of abuse, emotional abuse included.

I would vacillate between always agreeing with my abuser, apologizing, not standing up for myself, doing whatever I could do to "keep the peace." Other times, I would respond in kind - respond viciously, scream, rage etc. So yes, from time to time I also did what the abuser did, but I did not have the underlying pathology that drove me to see myself as "superior" to my partner, nor any desire to control his actions.

I can see what you're saying but I don't think it's common to have a situation in which both people are equally perpetuating abuse.

+1.

There is a cycle to abuse. But victims responding to that cycle don't make them abusers. This requires the detailed involvement of an expert in the field. It is very complicated. It's like punishing a child that is a 7 year old bully, who is being molested at home. Certainly, bullying is not okay. But certainly, punishing is not addressing the true problem here. The problem is the abuse. When that stops, the corresponding and problematic behavior usually follows soon after, with new learned principles and therapy.

There is another aspect of the cycle that far too many people aren't aware of where the victim may subconsciously use provocation as a way of getting the abusive episode over with. In physically abusive relationships, there is often a cycle where there's an episode of violence, then remorse on the part of the abuser where they try to make it up to the victim. After that honeymoon period, there usually come a phase of build-up to the next incident of violence, where the abuser isn't physically hurting their victim but is become kind of restless in their non-violence, they get meaner, short-tempered, threatening, etc., until it peaks with violence. That build-up phase can in some ways be worse for the victim because they know the punch is coming but then don't know when, and it's torturous. The victim in those cases will often do something during that build-up phase to make the violence come faster, such as yelling at their abuser, insulting him, maybe even shoving him (not in a way that will cause injury, just make him mad) so they can get the violence over with and get back to the peaceful, harmonious phase.

This same phenomenon happens in emotionally abusive relationships too but it's even harder to recognize when it happens. The emotional abuse victim who gets into an argument with their abuser and can tell it's not going anywhere constructive but won't end until their abuser has let loose (at which point they can have their make-up sex and he'll tell her how much he loves her) might make the subconscious decision to throw a gratuitous insult at their abuser so their abuser will let loose their verbal tirade and the fight will end. The victim knows there's no other way out of the fight except to let the tirade happen, because even if she were to walk away from the fight before it happens, the tirade will still be waiting for an excuse to come out.

This phenomenon is insidious in all abusive relationships because it gives opening for people to blame the victim for their role in the abuse. In physically abusive relationships, though, it's easier for the victim who has done this to recognize that they are still a victim and their abuser is still an abuser because calling someone an asshole doesn't warrant getting pushed down a flight of stairs. It's much worse for emotional abuse victims because an outsider (and even the victim herself) often can't distinguish between insults hurled for the purpose of harming the other person and the insults hurled only to get the abuse over with.

What if both partners are hurling the insults to get the abuse they perceive over with?

I am not blaming the victim here, but if anyone said some pretty abusive things to me, there is no way that I will retaliate to end the abuse. I do not get the logic.

For example, I have a friend who claims that her husband is emotionally abusive. I also know that she has told him on several occasions, during heated arguments, that she could have done much better than him and that she settled for him.

I think that you cannot make such statements to your spouse and then claim that your spouse is abusive and you are not. How am I even sure who started it? I don't have his side of the story.

When you are dealing with abuse, there is at least 1 person in the party who is unhealthy, unwell, and not using rationalization in the way that you are. You cannot understand this dynamic by simply putting yourself in an abusers shoes. You are not operating with the intent to control, suppress, demean, and lower someone to feel empowered. So first, consider looking through the lens of a dysfunctional person unconsciously programmed and/or motivated to do this. I would imagine it is very difficult to do with just an example of other "facts" around the story.

The PP describing elements of a classic cycle hit the nail on the head. Dead on.

Again, focusing on victim's singular act, removing it from the abuse cycle, asking for personal accountability individually, is unfair in this case. There is nothing that would change the cycle, and honestly it doesn't carry as much weight as it would in a normal interaction because it is occurring in a very different environment.

You can't take one thread out of a tire and ask why it wore down and caused a flat tire. You have to look at the entire picture of everything, all of the elements, to truly dissect areas of accountably for each person involved. Victims are victims, they are harmed and made to suffer by the conditions of abuse, and many victims respond in different ways.

Victims who employ tactics that work to help lessen their pain or risk of exposure in ways that "make rational sense in an irrational situation" are doing what they best know how to do.

Often the more powerful abuser is the one who began with the behaviors; the victim learned them as a response and sometimes uses them to defend themselves, and this is why the cycle gets worse and worse.

An abuser takes the golden rule (treat others how you want to be treated) and tarnishes it with their own dysfunction, because they never learned how to treat others without harm, for whatever deep seated reason. Most abusers don't go around wearing big red marks on their forehead. So at best, you look for flags.

If you haven't been trained to look for red flags to abuse, it is easy to get in the cycle of a relationship, allow small concessions with your "rational" thinking, not realizing that there is an irrational core that will rear its ugly head in time. No one gets punched in the face on the first date, or called a slut or horrible mother in a moment of anger or jealousy one week in. Part of the struggle is that when you are in love with an abuser, there is so much respect and love you have originally, and gradual changes from how the abuser treats you begins the process of deflecting. It creeps in subtly, then grows, and you don't even realize how behaviors become modified over time until you are stuck, crying, trapped, and the fear of harm is greater than the confidence and safety you used to feel.

People who say, I would never take it, have never been manipulated by it. They were either wise and empowered enough to leave before it truly started, or able to get the wisdom and empowerment to leave once it did start. But that process looks different for everyone.

Even this response takes so much energy to articulate without defensiveness as a former victim - it is tough to do. Sometimes, it is easier to just wait for the next wave of pain. Humans are dynamic, we learn to adjust and adapt in ways that prioritize whatever our most immediate needs are at that moment, sometimes it isn't rational and not the best choice immediate, short or mid term, but it is the choice we had the capability of making at that time with the tools and information that we had at hand.

This phenomenon is insidious in all abusive relationships because it gives opening for people to blame the victim for their role in the abuse. In physically abusive relationships, though, it's easier for the victim who has done this to recognize that they are still a victim and their abuser is still an abuser because calling someone an asshole doesn't warrant getting pushed down a flight of stairs.

There is nothing emotional about that. It's physical abuse. I don't think any kind of insults warrant physical reaction. You call each other names, nobody who sees it would believe that either party is a victim.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have to be honest that I may be guilty of this.

In my very limited and shallow experience, the people whom I know who have complained about emotional abuse usually say and do similar things to their spouses. And when you get down to it(in the cases that I know of) it is difficult to determine who is the victim and who is the abuser. Both spouses seem like victims and abusers to me, and I would usually suggest counselling.

Personally, I would leave an emotional abusive relationship fast, but I am not one to advise others to leave because in the cases that I know of, both spouses were emotionally abusive. So I figure maybe there is a way to teach them how to treat each other through therapy.

Physical abuse seems more dangerous, and usually it is clear that one spouse is doing most or all of the physical abuse and the other is taking the heat..

I'm a survivor of abuse, emotional abuse included.

I would vacillate between always agreeing with my abuser, apologizing, not standing up for myself, doing whatever I could do to "keep the peace." Other times, I would respond in kind - respond viciously, scream, rage etc. So yes, from time to time I also did what the abuser did, but I did not have the underlying pathology that drove me to see myself as "superior" to my partner, nor any desire to control his actions.

I can see what you're saying but I don't think it's common to have a situation in which both people are equally perpetuating abuse.

+1.

There is a cycle to abuse. But victims responding to that cycle don't make them abusers. This requires the detailed involvement of an expert in the field. It is very complicated. It's like punishing a child that is a 7 year old bully, who is being molested at home. Certainly, bullying is not okay. But certainly, punishing is not addressing the true problem here. The problem is the abuse. When that stops, the corresponding and problematic behavior usually follows soon after, with new learned principles and therapy.

There is another aspect of the cycle that far too many people aren't aware of where the victim may subconsciously use provocation as a way of getting the abusive episode over with. In physically abusive relationships, there is often a cycle where there's an episode of violence, then remorse on the part of the abuser where they try to make it up to the victim. After that honeymoon period, there usually come a phase of build-up to the next incident of violence, where the abuser isn't physically hurting their victim but is become kind of restless in their non-violence, they get meaner, short-tempered, threatening, etc., until it peaks with violence. That build-up phase can in some ways be worse for the victim because they know the punch is coming but then don't know when, and it's torturous. The victim in those cases will often do something during that build-up phase to make the violence come faster, such as yelling at their abuser, insulting him, maybe even shoving him (not in a way that will cause injury, just make him mad) so they can get the violence over with and get back to the peaceful, harmonious phase.

This same phenomenon happens in emotionally abusive relationships too but it's even harder to recognize when it happens. The emotional abuse victim who gets into an argument with their abuser and can tell it's not going anywhere constructive but won't end until their abuser has let loose (at which point they can have their make-up sex and he'll tell her how much he loves her) might make the subconscious decision to throw a gratuitous insult at their abuser so their abuser will let loose their verbal tirade and the fight will end. The victim knows there's no other way out of the fight except to let the tirade happen, because even if she were to walk away from the fight before it happens, the tirade will still be waiting for an excuse to come out.

This phenomenon is insidious in all abusive relationships because it gives opening for people to blame the victim for their role in the abuse. In physically abusive relationships, though, it's easier for the victim who has done this to recognize that they are still a victim and their abuser is still an abuser because calling someone an asshole doesn't warrant getting pushed down a flight of stairs. It's much worse for emotional abuse victims because an outsider (and even the victim herself) often can't distinguish between insults hurled for the purpose of harming the other person and the insults hurled only to get the abuse over with.

What if both partners are hurling the insults to get the abuse they perceive over with?

I am not blaming the victim here, but if anyone said some pretty abusive things to me, there is no way that I will retaliate to end the abuse. I do not get the logic.

For example, I have a friend who claims that her husband is emotionally abusive. I also know that she has told him on several occasions, during heated arguments, that she could have done much better than him and that she settled for him.

I think that you cannot make such statements to your spouse and then claim that your spouse is abusive and you are not. How am I even sure who started it? I don't have his side of the story.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have to be honest that I may be guilty of this.

In my very limited and shallow experience, the people whom I know who have complained about emotional abuse usually say and do similar things to their spouses. And when you get down to it(in the cases that I know of) it is difficult to determine who is the victim and who is the abuser. Both spouses seem like victims and abusers to me, and I would usually suggest counselling.

Personally, I would leave an emotional abusive relationship fast, but I am not one to advise others to leave because in the cases that I know of, both spouses were emotionally abusive. So I figure maybe there is a way to teach them how to treat each other through therapy.

Physical abuse seems more dangerous, and usually it is clear that one spouse is doing most or all of the physical abuse and the other is taking the heat..

I'm a survivor of abuse, emotional abuse included.

I would vacillate between always agreeing with my abuser, apologizing, not standing up for myself, doing whatever I could do to "keep the peace." Other times, I would respond in kind - respond viciously, scream, rage etc. So yes, from time to time I also did what the abuser did, but I did not have the underlying pathology that drove me to see myself as "superior" to my partner, nor any desire to control his actions.

I can see what you're saying but I don't think it's common to have a situation in which both people are equally perpetuating abuse.

+1.

There is a cycle to abuse. But victims responding to that cycle don't make them abusers. This requires the detailed involvement of an expert in the field. It is very complicated. It's like punishing a child that is a 7 year old bully, who is being molested at home. Certainly, bullying is not okay. But certainly, punishing is not addressing the true problem here. The problem is the abuse. When that stops, the corresponding and problematic behavior usually follows soon after, with new learned principles and therapy.

There is another aspect of the cycle that far too many people aren't aware of where the victim may subconsciously use provocation as a way of getting the abusive episode over with. In physically abusive relationships, there is often a cycle where there's an episode of violence, then remorse on the part of the abuser where they try to make it up to the victim. After that honeymoon period, there usually come a phase of build-up to the next incident of violence, where the abuser isn't physically hurting their victim but is become kind of restless in their non-violence, they get meaner, short-tempered, threatening, etc., until it peaks with violence. That build-up phase can in some ways be worse for the victim because they know the punch is coming but then don't know when, and it's torturous. The victim in those cases will often do something during that build-up phase to make the violence come faster, such as yelling at their abuser, insulting him, maybe even shoving him (not in a way that will cause injury, just make him mad) so they can get the violence over with and get back to the peaceful, harmonious phase.

This same phenomenon happens in emotionally abusive relationships too but it's even harder to recognize when it happens. The emotional abuse victim who gets into an argument with their abuser and can tell it's not going anywhere constructive but won't end until their abuser has let loose (at which point they can have their make-up sex and he'll tell her how much he loves her) might make the subconscious decision to throw a gratuitous insult at their abuser so their abuser will let loose their verbal tirade and the fight will end. The victim knows there's no other way out of the fight except to let the tirade happen, because even if she were to walk away from the fight before it happens, the tirade will still be waiting for an excuse to come out.

This phenomenon is insidious in all abusive relationships because it gives opening for people to blame the victim for their role in the abuse. In physically abusive relationships, though, it's easier for the victim who has done this to recognize that they are still a victim and their abuser is still an abuser because calling someone an asshole doesn't warrant getting pushed down a flight of stairs. It's much worse for emotional abuse victims because an outsider (and even the victim herself) often can't distinguish between insults hurled for the purpose of harming the other person and the insults hurled only to get the abuse over with.

I agree with most of what you are saying. I just wonder how a victim can get out of abusive relationships if they don't see their role in the abuse.

Anonymous wrote:Because unless you've been through it, you really don't get it.

+1

Plus, non supportive posters/naysayers want to think (as PP pointed out) that mental abuse is some sort of whacky liberal agenda; or that somehow the person being abused "asked for it". Wouldn't be surprised if they are abusers themselves.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have to be honest that I may be guilty of this.

In my very limited and shallow experience, the people whom I know who have complained about emotional abuse usually say and do similar things to their spouses. And when you get down to it(in the cases that I know of) it is difficult to determine who is the victim and who is the abuser. Both spouses seem like victims and abusers to me, and I would usually suggest counselling.

Personally, I would leave an emotional abusive relationship fast, but I am not one to advise others to leave because in the cases that I know of, both spouses were emotionally abusive. So I figure maybe there is a way to teach them how to treat each other through therapy.

Physical abuse seems more dangerous, and usually it is clear that one spouse is doing most or all of the physical abuse and the other is taking the heat..

I'm a survivor of abuse, emotional abuse included.

I would vacillate between always agreeing with my abuser, apologizing, not standing up for myself, doing whatever I could do to "keep the peace." Other times, I would respond in kind - respond viciously, scream, rage etc. So yes, from time to time I also did what the abuser did, but I did not have the underlying pathology that drove me to see myself as "superior" to my partner, nor any desire to control his actions.

I can see what you're saying but I don't think it's common to have a situation in which both people are equally perpetuating abuse.

Yes, I did too. I think it makes it really confusing because, when you respond in kind, you begin to wonder if you're actually causing the problem, which confirms what he has been telling you all along. The thing is, when I stepped back, I saw that what set my DH and I apart were his lies and manipulation. Sure, we both insulted each other, but he would also make up stuff that caused me to doubt myself and made me insecure. And while I might call him an asshole or tell him I thought he had let himself go , he could go on a rampage of insults towards me that attacked every facet of my being- my looks, my life choices, my character, you name it. There were times when I sat there sobbing and he wouldn't stop. There was never a time when it was the other way around.

If people witnessed any of those type exchanges or heard you talking like this about DH, then they simply think that you both deserve each other. What was causing you to fly off the handle or saying offensive stuff?

I can't say for sure, but it could have been the time that he went into a rant about how I didn't actually have PPD and instead was just selfish, that I wasn't fit to be a mom because I didn't quit my job to be with our child, that instead I should be staying home so I could work on getting my weight under control after having the baby, and that I wouldn't be so anxious all the time if I could set my priorities better. Or, maybe it was the time he called me fat (I weigh 112 btw), said my hair was falling out, and told me "go ahead leave, no one will want you anyway. I can't stand having sex with you."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I recognize you from your past posts. You really need to be working with a therapist, not posting on DCUM.

Thanks!

I am working with a therapist. I'm also wondering why people don't take emotional abuse seriously, which is why I posted here.

Maybe ask your therapist at your next session to help you work on your need for external validation.

This is a bit unfair and harsh PP. Abuse victims, like any victims, reach out to others for emotional, physical and financial support. What the abuser is doing -- emotional abuse -- is wrong and blaming the victim for taking it, not being strong enough to leave, or wanting other people to support her identification of behavior as abusive, well that's wrong too.

In fact, the failure of society to acknowledge and protect the true victim is what makes the abuse so traumatic. We have an idea in our heads that we are valuable and should be protected, especially by family (parents, spouse, etc.) or other parts of society (workplace, justice system, other institutions where we expect fairness). When we don't experience these structures as protective and respectful of us, the victim often experiences a betrayal trauma. If the victim is repeatedly abused, and that abuse is either ignored or justified by outsiders or other people the victim naturally expects to turn to for support instead blame the victim, then, over repeated episodes of abuse, the victim develops a kind of "learned helplessness". It's important not to interpret this kind of "learned helplessness" as a weakness on the victim's part. In fact, this learned helplessness has a kind of rational, protective value. It is a rational response to an irrational situation.

Yes, it is true that OP should work on developing her sense of autonomy and ability to act independently of what others think, but your delivery is a bit harsh and blame-casting.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have to be honest that I may be guilty of this.

In my very limited and shallow experience, the people whom I know who have complained about emotional abuse usually say and do similar things to their spouses. And when you get down to it(in the cases that I know of) it is difficult to determine who is the victim and who is the abuser. Both spouses seem like victims and abusers to me, and I would usually suggest counselling.

Personally, I would leave an emotional abusive relationship fast, but I am not one to advise others to leave because in the cases that I know of, both spouses were emotionally abusive. So I figure maybe there is a way to teach them how to treat each other through therapy.

Physical abuse seems more dangerous, and usually it is clear that one spouse is doing most or all of the physical abuse and the other is taking the heat..

I'm a survivor of abuse, emotional abuse included.

I would vacillate between always agreeing with my abuser, apologizing, not standing up for myself, doing whatever I could do to "keep the peace." Other times, I would respond in kind - respond viciously, scream, rage etc. So yes, from time to time I also did what the abuser did, but I did not have the underlying pathology that drove me to see myself as "superior" to my partner, nor any desire to control his actions.

I can see what you're saying but I don't think it's common to have a situation in which both people are equally perpetuating abuse.

+1.

There is a cycle to abuse. But victims responding to that cycle don't make them abusers. This requires the detailed involvement of an expert in the field. It is very complicated. It's like punishing a child that is a 7 year old bully, who is being molested at home. Certainly, bullying is not okay. But certainly, punishing is not addressing the true problem here. The problem is the abuse. When that stops, the corresponding and problematic behavior usually follows soon after, with new learned principles and therapy.

There is another aspect of the cycle that far too many people aren't aware of where the victim may subconsciously use provocation as a way of getting the abusive episode over with. In physically abusive relationships, there is often a cycle where there's an episode of violence, then remorse on the part of the abuser where they try to make it up to the victim. After that honeymoon period, there usually come a phase of build-up to the next incident of violence, where the abuser isn't physically hurting their victim but is become kind of restless in their non-violence, they get meaner, short-tempered, threatening, etc., until it peaks with violence. That build-up phase can in some ways be worse for the victim because they know the punch is coming but then don't know when, and it's torturous. The victim in those cases will often do something during that build-up phase to make the violence come faster, such as yelling at their abuser, insulting him, maybe even shoving him (not in a way that will cause injury, just make him mad) so they can get the violence over with and get back to the peaceful, harmonious phase.

This same phenomenon happens in emotionally abusive relationships too but it's even harder to recognize when it happens. The emotional abuse victim who gets into an argument with their abuser and can tell it's not going anywhere constructive but won't end until their abuser has let loose (at which point they can have their make-up sex and he'll tell her how much he loves her) might make the subconscious decision to throw a gratuitous insult at their abuser so their abuser will let loose their verbal tirade and the fight will end. The victim knows there's no other way out of the fight except to let the tirade happen, because even if she were to walk away from the fight before it happens, the tirade will still be waiting for an excuse to come out.

This phenomenon is insidious in all abusive relationships because it gives opening for people to blame the victim for their role in the abuse. In physically abusive relationships, though, it's easier for the victim who has done this to recognize that they are still a victim and their abuser is still an abuser because calling someone an asshole doesn't warrant getting pushed down a flight of stairs. It's much worse for emotional abuse victims because an outsider (and even the victim herself) often can't distinguish between insults hurled for the purpose of harming the other person and the insults hurled only to get the abuse over with.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have to be honest that I may be guilty of this.

In my very limited and shallow experience, the people whom I know who have complained about emotional abuse usually say and do similar things to their spouses. And when you get down to it(in the cases that I know of) it is difficult to determine who is the victim and who is the abuser. Both spouses seem like victims and abusers to me, and I would usually suggest counselling.

Personally, I would leave an emotional abusive relationship fast, but I am not one to advise others to leave because in the cases that I know of, both spouses were emotionally abusive. So I figure maybe there is a way to teach them how to treat each other through therapy.

Physical abuse seems more dangerous, and usually it is clear that one spouse is doing most or all of the physical abuse and the other is taking the heat..

I'm a survivor of abuse, emotional abuse included.

I would vacillate between always agreeing with my abuser, apologizing, not standing up for myself, doing whatever I could do to "keep the peace." Other times, I would respond in kind - respond viciously, scream, rage etc. So yes, from time to time I also did what the abuser did, but I did not have the underlying pathology that drove me to see myself as "superior" to my partner, nor any desire to control his actions.

I can see what you're saying but I don't think it's common to have a situation in which both people are equally perpetuating abuse.

Yes, I did too. I think it makes it really confusing because, when you respond in kind, you begin to wonder if you're actually causing the problem, which confirms what he has been telling you all along. The thing is, when I stepped back, I saw that what set my DH and I apart were his lies and manipulation. Sure, we both insulted each other, but he would also make up stuff that caused me to doubt myself and made me insecure. And while I might call him an asshole or tell him I thought he had let himself go , he could go on a rampage of insults towards me that attacked every facet of my being- my looks, my life choices, my character, you name it. There were times when I sat there sobbing and he wouldn't stop. There was never a time when it was the other way around.

If people witnessed any of those type exchanges or heard you talking like this about DH, then they simply think that you both deserve each other. What was causing you to fly off the handle or saying offensive stuff?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I recognize you from your past posts. You really need to be working with a therapist, not posting on DCUM.

Thanks!

I am working with a therapist. I'm also wondering why people don't take emotional abuse seriously, which is why I posted here.

Maybe ask your therapist at your next session to help you work on your need for external validation.