Anonymous
Post 10/22/2017 21:36     Subject: Junior associate at Big Law -- help!
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Harsh question: Why did you think your experience in Big Law would be different than those you've read about in Above the Law, etc.? Nothing that you've described is remotely outside the norm of expectations. It was foolish for you to try to attempt the impossible with young children. You need to get out now - or wait until you are given the boot with 3 months severance to find something more realistic for your stage in life.

I know this sounds mean, but I get so tired of my associates thinking the rules/expectations don't apply to them. I guarantee your partners feel the same about you.


+10000

What, Op, did you really think you could "have it all?" Guess the jokes on you.


Law firms are dishonest in this regard, and law students are naive. I worked for a firm that billed itself as the top family-friendly firm in the area, even to having a day care on site. Wasn't family friendly in the least. Day care closed at 6, and woe to the attorney who was working on a filing at 6 and had to stop to get her kids. Having it on site made it worse because then pickup was inconvenient for the spouse. All the young female attorneys I knew who had kids at the firm either didn't come back -- despite very generous maternity leave -- or left after a year or two. I knew only one female partner with kids; the rest didn't have kids and most weren't even married. The male partners all had stay at home wives. I saw the writing on the wall and left after 3 years (plus prior clerkship) to take a GS-13 job at a dinky government agency, making less than half my law firm salary. Had 2 kids in government and worked my way to GS-15 supervisory attorney in 7 years. The job isn't sexy but it's about as family-friendly as a litigating position can get.

Over the years I've served as a summer mentor to women from my law school. Without exception, they all think they will be different and will make law firms work for them and their family goals. They don't believe me when I suggest that it might be more difficult than they think. Law schools and law firms tell them they can do it. (Just like law school, at least when I was in school in the mid-aughts, said don't worry about your loans because you will easily pay them back. Hahaha.) I'm sure some women manage to do it, but it's pretty rare that they do it well and happily. Some do, but most don't.

And that goes for men too. My husband got out of biglaw a year before I did, for the same reasons, and also went to government. We are both very busy and feel like every moment is scheduled, between 2 jobs, 45 minute-1 hour commutes, day care for 4 year old and 6 month old, making dinner, housework, etc. And we both agree there is no way in hell we could have done this and stayed afloat if either of us -- much less both of us -- were still at a firm.

So, OP, my advice for you is to get out. It's unlikely you'll be fired this year for 1800 hours, but you're not making an impression as a top dog either, nor does it sound like it's working for you on a personal level. Do your best over the next year and do some serious job searching.


But how can law students remain so naive when the information is readily available? There are cautionary tales of big law washouts everywhere these days. I truly don't understand why people don't believe that a job paying $180k to start will be difficult. Of COURSE you are going to have to work long hours and NO it's not family friendly.
Anonymous
Post 10/22/2017 21:34     Subject: Re:Junior associate at Big Law -- help!
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Op don't be so quick to assume you can't make major changes in your life. You're in control of your life. I realize you have law school debt but as long as you can make the payments, that shouldn't stop you from changing careers. You sound miserable and should do something about it. Even if it means selling your house and moving into a rental. Selling cars. Do whatever it takes. You only live one life and this is no way to live it. I'd even apply for jobs in other cities. Do NOT have your spouse quit his job. No way.


You are so naive. I have a family member who sells cars and he works six days a week for ten to twelve hours a day for a pittance. And a lawyer can't just pick up and move to another city. It doesn't work like that. Not only is there the issue of being admitted to the bar, but law firms have a very strong preference for hiring people with local ties. Unless you have some in demand specialized expertise, no one will be interested in some random lawyer from another city. Plus the DC market is as good as it gets right now.


Naive to think you're in control over your life? That you don't HAVE to work in big law?

I've made a nice life for myself. I make over 200k and don't even have a masters. It's not that much I realize but I have a family friendly job. I can assure you that there's no way I would be sticking around a job like OP has. I wouldn't sit around telling myself I can't move to another city and I can't find another job.

It's simply not true that lawyers can't move to other cities. It may be hard to work out, but it's something that can be done.

Anonymous
Post 10/22/2017 21:09     Subject: Junior associate at Big Law -- help!
Anonymous wrote:OP, you’ve GOT to stop all the non billable stuff other than mandatory training. Seriously, I’m not doing JACK that’s not billable. Fuck that. Push back for your own sake.
She might be able to avoid some of the non-billable stuff she's doing now by flying under the radar when volunteers are sought. But she can't refuse direct requests from partners for non-billable help, at least not repeatedly.
Anonymous
Post 10/22/2017 21:05     Subject: Re:Junior associate at Big Law -- help!
Anonymous wrote:Op don't be so quick to assume you can't make major changes in your life. You're in control of your life. I realize you have law school debt but as long as you can make the payments, that shouldn't stop you from changing careers. You sound miserable and should do something about it. Even if it means selling your house and moving into a rental. Selling cars. Do whatever it takes. You only live one life and this is no way to live it. I'd even apply for jobs in other cities. Do NOT have your spouse quit his job. No way.


You are so naive. I have a family member who sells cars and he works six days a week for ten to twelve hours a day for a pittance. And a lawyer can't just pick up and move to another city. It doesn't work like that. Not only is there the issue of being admitted to the bar, but law firms have a very strong preference for hiring people with local ties. Unless you have some in demand specialized expertise, no one will be interested in some random lawyer from another city. Plus the DC market is as good as it gets right now.
Anonymous
Post 10/22/2017 21:03     Subject: Junior associate at Big Law -- help!
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Harsh question: Why did you think your experience in Big Law would be different than those you've read about in Above the Law, etc.? Nothing that you've described is remotely outside the norm of expectations. It was foolish for you to try to attempt the impossible with young children. You need to get out now - or wait until you are given the boot with 3 months severance to find something more realistic for your stage in life.

I know this sounds mean, but I get so tired of my associates thinking the rules/expectations don't apply to them. I guarantee your partners feel the same about you.


+10000

What, Op, did you really think you could "have it all?" Guess the jokes on you.


Law firms are dishonest in this regard, and law students are naive. I worked for a firm that billed itself as the top family-friendly firm in the area, even to having a day care on site. Wasn't family friendly in the least. Day care closed at 6, and woe to the attorney who was working on a filing at 6 and had to stop to get her kids. Having it on site made it worse because then pickup was inconvenient for the spouse. All the young female attorneys I knew who had kids at the firm either didn't come back -- despite very generous maternity leave -- or left after a year or two. I knew only one female partner with kids; the rest didn't have kids and most weren't even married. The male partners all had stay at home wives. I saw the writing on the wall and left after 3 years (plus prior clerkship) to take a GS-13 job at a dinky government agency, making less than half my law firm salary. Had 2 kids in government and worked my way to GS-15 supervisory attorney in 7 years. The job isn't sexy but it's about as family-friendly as a litigating position can get.

Over the years I've served as a summer mentor to women from my law school. Without exception, they all think they will be different and will make law firms work for them and their family goals. They don't believe me when I suggest that it might be more difficult than they think. Law schools and law firms tell them they can do it. (Just like law school, at least when I was in school in the mid-aughts, said don't worry about your loans because you will easily pay them back. Hahaha.) I'm sure some women manage to do it, but it's pretty rare that they do it well and happily. Some do, but most don't.

And that goes for men too. My husband got out of biglaw a year before I did, for the same reasons, and also went to government. We are both very busy and feel like every moment is scheduled, between 2 jobs, 45 minute-1 hour commutes, day care for 4 year old and 6 month old, making dinner, housework, etc. And we both agree there is no way in hell we could have done this and stayed afloat if either of us -- much less both of us -- were still at a firm.

So, OP, my advice for you is to get out. It's unlikely you'll be fired this year for 1800 hours, but you're not making an impression as a top dog either, nor does it sound like it's working for you on a personal level. Do your best over the next year and do some serious job searching.
Anonymous
Post 10/22/2017 21:00     Subject: Junior associate at Big Law -- help!
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:The problem, OP, is that these are really your prime years for your career development. If you can put in 3-5 years at your firm you will have so many more options. Right now you aren't very valuable to any employer because you don't know much. If you leave now you risk stunting your career growth long term. If you can stick it out, you can lay the foundation for longer term career growth. Can your husband lean out for a few years?


These are also her prime years to be a mother.


Yup, but that ship has already sailed. She's got a lot of debt, and if she wants to be able to pay it down and ensure the financial security of the kids going forward, this is the time to double down professionally. The alternative is crippling debt, still working full time at a job that pays a lot less, and long term lower earning potential. That's just how it is. There are no better options. I've been a big firm attorney, I'm married to one, and I've worked as a legal recruiter and am now in a position where I hire experienced lawyers. I know this world, and there is no good scenario here. Best she can do is to put her head down and work her butt off for the next few years and right the ship.
Anonymous
Post 10/22/2017 20:49     Subject: Junior associate at Big Law -- help!
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Op, others are overcharging ... all those "Billable Hours" aren't happening, not as reported. Either act as others do and make peace with it, or get out.


I always wondered how prevalent this was when I was at the law firm. I never did it but I was working all the time and would barely hit 2000 hours per year.


Out of curiosity, why is this? Were you doing a ton of non-billable stuff? Or were there stretches where you'd be at the office but just didn't have billable projects to work on?


I was a securities lawyer and for the most part December and January were dead months and they would stick us on business development projects that didn't count. These projects required a fair amount of hours but it was all non-billable. I had another required large project where I had to compile all of the deals in our sector for the past year and list out certain information in a spreadsheet. Not hard or anything but time consuming.

Otherwise, there were times where I would be waiting around during the day for work to become available and sometimes a company would decide on Friday that they wanted to launch a deal on Monday so I was working all night on the weekend. So, dead months in January and February combined with ups and downs for deal flow made it seem like I was working a lot.
Anonymous
Post 10/22/2017 20:45     Subject: Junior associate at Big Law -- help!
Head on over to the DOJ (assuming that you went to a good law school)!
Anonymous
Post 10/22/2017 20:41     Subject: Junior associate at Big Law -- help!
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Op back. I don't think I can go.to government. Opportunities are sparse on usajobs and I've applied for 6 months without a bite.

I also can't hire another nanny -- as a 3rd year with a lot of debt, we are barely making ends meet with one full time nanny.

Yes, I did think my firm would be more family friendly. I chose this firm because during the interview, every single MALE partner told me that he either did drop off or pick up every single day and that I'd be fine with two young children. I now see that they were less than honest -- they do drop off or pick-up WHEN they have time which is not the normal.
I did BigLaw with kids. I billed at least three hours every night after bedtime (9 PM - midnight), including all weekends. I was up at 6 AM every morning and left for work by 7 AM. During those years I had a 4 month - 3 year old and was also up with the baby 2-3 times a night. I also tried to bill at least 4 hours over weekend naptimes and got up early on weekend mornings to bill until the kids woke up. You have to give up sleeping to make it work. I billed about 2200 hours a year with a 45 hour a week nanny and a supportive, but working FT, spouse.
The other way I used to get stuff done when things were busy was to have a really nice Sunday morning with the family and then head to the office at the start of naptime. I would stay at the office working until midnight or 1 AM. With no one around I could often bill almost 10 hours in one shot. It was a super efficient way to bang out hours and quality work at the same time. It also left my husband with only one solo dinner/bedtime. To get those same hours during the week would cost many stressful nights.
Anonymous
Post 10/22/2017 20:41     Subject: Junior associate at Big Law -- help!
*should say “really long time”
Anonymous
Post 10/22/2017 20:40     Subject: Junior associate at Big Law -- help!
OP, you’ve GOT to stop all the non billable stuff other than mandatory training. Seriously, I’m not doing JACK that’s not billable. Fuck that. Push back for your own sake. My rule of thumb was to bill at least 180 a month. That’s 9 billable hours a day without counting weekends. Do whatever you need to do to get there. That’s over 2000 a year and will give you some cushion if you miss that target one month. It doesn’t work out perfectly every month, but that’s my measuring stick.

I agree with another PP that it’s ok to miss your hours the first year, but next year people will not be so understanding. If you truly believe that you cannot sustain a life in big law, keep looking hard for a job. It takes a really little by time to find something (6 months to a year), so it seems like you need to dedicate some serious time to this now.

Also, don’t have your husband stop working, particularly if you’re already strapped for cash.
Anonymous
Post 10/22/2017 20:32     Subject: Junior associate at Big Law -- help!
OP, can you get a babysitter/housekeeper on top of the nanny? It's hard when the kids are so little to be in a junior role. Can you take some of the work home so you're there to relieve the nanny and maybe have dinner, and then have a babysitter (or husband) play with the kids while you work?
Anonymous
Post 10/22/2017 20:02     Subject: Junior associate at Big Law -- help!
Anonymous wrote:Op, others are overcharging ... all those "Billable Hours" aren't happening, not as reported. Either act as others do and make peace with it, or get out.


Uh, this was absolutely not done at the firms at which I worked. You have to enter a narrative for each time entry, and some clients will push back if they think the time billed is unreasonable. So no one bills for "thinking in the shower" or whatever. I didn't stop my clock for every trip to get a glass of water, but I certainly stopped it for anything non-work related that took more than a minute or two. Most Biglaw attorneys are both ethical and risk-averse.
Anonymous
Post 10/22/2017 19:58     Subject: Junior associate at Big Law -- help!
Op, you'll get canned because you aren't playing the game, or don't know the game which is worse. It's certainly more worrisome to them.
Anonymous
Post 10/22/2017 19:56     Subject: Junior associate at Big Law -- help!
I used to be in Big Law, so I understand how demanding the job is. However, I strongly believe you need to stick this out for a couple more years to get some experience and pay off your debt. It will make you far more marketable. Getting into the government is not easy (contrary to what so many are suggesting here). You need some skills, so you need to figure out how to make this work.

First, get more help w/ childcare. I understand that you are stretched financially, so I'd consider getting an au pair, who will be less expensive than a nanny. You may then need to get someone part time to supplement the au pair. Or if your kids are in preschool, then school plus au pair hours (can't remember what the maximum per week is right now) should be enough. Also, do you have any family around? Can they help w/ the kids?

Second, can you get some work done in the morning before the kids are up and before you head to the office and at night after they go to bed? These years are tough, but I honestly think it's worth making the sacrifice for a few years rather than flaming out after your first year. I know that sounds harsh, but you need to prove yourself at your firm. Once you've proved yourself valuable, then perhaps you can move to a reduced schedule or perhaps you'll be able to move on.