Anonymous
Post 08/18/2017 14:52     Subject: Re:s/o Names you like but rarely hear
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I had an Enzo in my class last year and thought it was an awesome boy name.


My husband is Vinchenzo and we call him Enzo. Its nice because we were able to name our son Vinchenzo and call him Vinnie so they have the same name but different nick names making it the best of both worlds in the name sake category.


Did you really use the h? It's completely wrong in Italian. It's Vincenzo.


I was wondering the same thing! I wonder if the families are so far from the immigrant ancestors that they know the pronunciation but not the spelling, so at some point in the past, someone threw an h in there. That's what happens in the melting pot.
Anonymous
Post 08/18/2017 14:51     Subject: Re:s/o Names you like but rarely hear
Anonymous wrote:

If you didn't know how to pronounce the name growing up, it's not your culture. You're trying to put out that you have a connection to Ireland that is not there. There are Irish Americans that are still very closely connected to this culture -- they have living Irish people in their families, or they travel back and forth and keep close with relatives in Ireland. But those names aren't exotic to those people, they're just names. So again, if you didn't hear these names growing up, if you had to be taught how to pronounce them when you were thumbing through baby name books: then you are part of the diaspora, you are Irish American, you are not Irish. And it might hurt your feelings to learn this, but nobody hates Irish Americans who don't understand they're not actually Irish more than the Irish do. It's a pretense. That's why the Irish PP in this thread put an obligatory "Sully from Boston" dig in her response.

Sincerely, a Murphy


Or maybe you just like the name.

My background is Jewish. If I encountered a Goldie Chen, or a Goldie Vassilikos, or a Goldie Garcia, or a Goldie Tesfaye, or Goldie Bhattacharya, or ... I wouldn't think, "You don't get to use that name because you don't have a Jewish background."
Anonymous
Post 08/18/2017 14:50     Subject: Re:s/o Names you like but rarely hear
Anonymous wrote:Boy names I'd love to hear: David, Gideon, Daniel, Joseph

Girl names: Ruth, Elizabeth (in full), Marigold, Clementine

I have old-fashioned taste, I guess!

Seriously? These are all among the most common names given to children in this day and age.
Anonymous
Post 08/18/2017 14:45     Subject: Re:s/o Names you like but rarely hear
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:So, it's cultural appropriation. So, I side-eye people who appropriate culture that is not their own. So, you get defensive about that. So, you post a nonsensical question about "ownership."

That's what.


NP here. Hold the phone, so someone who's 100% Irish, though multiple generations American, is engaging in cultural appropriation if they name their daughter Aelish? Even if they have an Irish last name? And this is because they're now "American", not Irish? Then what names ARE American and acceptable under this reasoning?


If you didn't know how to pronounce the name growing up, it's not your culture. You're trying to put out that you have a connection to Ireland that is not there. There are Irish Americans that are still very closely connected to this culture -- they have living Irish people in their families, or they travel back and forth and keep close with relatives in Ireland. But those names aren't exotic to those people, they're just names. So again, if you didn't hear these names growing up, if you had to be taught how to pronounce them when you were thumbing through baby name books: then you are part of the diaspora, you are Irish American, you are not Irish. And it might hurt your feelings to learn this, but nobody hates Irish Americans who don't understand they're not actually Irish more than the Irish do. It's a pretense. That's why the Irish PP in this thread put an obligatory "Sully from Boston" dig in her response.

Sincerely, a Murphy


PP here - let me be clear, I have no dog in this fight. I'm a drop Irish along with half a dozen other nationalities and gave my kids family names. This is a thread about names, not about migration patterns and sociology. My point is, if "Irish Americans" aren't allowed to use certain names because of cultural appropriation, what names ARE they allowed to use? You're implying that for the vast majority of us generically "American" folks that have no remaining connection to the countries our ancestors came from, that there are names that are off limits and names that are permissible. Which names are which? Which names are permissible to you? Would you extend this rational to Italian Americans? African Americans?


If the name is so unique to a culture that not only do most people not know how to pronounce it upon seeing it spelled, but also the parents didn't know how to pronounce it upon seeing it spelled, then yes. Naming your kid that to stake out a connection to that culture is appropriation, and obnoxious.


DP. I really don't see how it can be appropriation when it's your own historical culture. Naming your kid Cohen when you are a Christian with no Jewish heritage is appropriation. Naming your kid Levi or Asher is not because those Old Testament names are part of shared heritage between Jews and Christians.

I am Jewish and no one in my family has used particularly Jewish names for several generations. But if I decide to name my kids Moshe or Simcha or Ruchel, that's not appropriation, it's just reaching back further in my own historical culture. Now, my family and peers would find those names silly because we aren't Orthodox, but that's different. I agree that naming your kid Saoirse when you have only a tentative connection with Ireland is silly, but it's not appropriation. It's just pretentious.


Sorry for messing up the quotes, all.

I agree with the immediate PP that it's pretentiousness, not appropriation. I'm probably 10% Irish, but could go way back into my family tree and find a Aelish or Saorirse type name. If it's literally a family name, I absolutely disagree that it's cultural appropriation to use it. Pretentious and obnoxious and I would never do it, but not appropriation when it's my own literal ancestor.

And again, nobody has answered my original question. If Irish Americans (or Italian Americans or Polish Americans) are not allowed to use those ethnic names because it's cultural appropriation, what names are they allowed to use? What are the generic "American" names?
Anonymous
Post 08/18/2017 14:44     Subject: s/o Names you like but rarely hear
Julie
Natalie
Lydia
Toby
Anonymous
Post 08/18/2017 14:37     Subject: Re:s/o Names you like but rarely hear
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Bridget is a classic name I dont hear too much. Mildred is my favorite "old person name" that I think should come back. Millie is adorable in my mind. Im done with all versions of Eleanor and Stella. Those old people names are DONE.


haha! The name Bridget is always interesting to me. Bridget is/was the stereotypical working/low class name in Ireland...it was THE name for Irish domestic maids/servants/the "help" so much so that for a really long time, many women would actually change their names to avoid that stereotype. I'm never sure if Irish American "never been to Ireland but my last name is Sullivan or O'Reilly!!!" crowd doesn't know this or doesn't care.


We know and don't care. Irish American naming conventions are distinct from Irish naming conventions, and this kind of class-nervousness doesn't mesh well with the large contingent of Irish Americans that take pride in the fact that we overcame discrimination.

That said, I have all the side-eye in the world for Irish Americans who've never been to Ireland buying into current bandwagon trend of naming their kids Aelish or Saorsie or Aoife. If someone had to teach you how to pronounce it after the age of 15, it's not your culture.


So what? Cultures don't own names.


So, it's cultural appropriation. So, I side-eye people who appropriate culture that is not their own. So, you get defensive about that. So, you post a nonsensical question about "ownership."

That's what.

Seriously? So by that logic, unless you're English, you shouldn't be naming your child Margaret or Anne? No one but the Scandinavian can do names like Ingrid? The Zhong family and the Kim family have to give their kids names like Mingmei and Soo-Wong?
Anonymous
Post 08/18/2017 14:33     Subject: Re:s/o Names you like but rarely hear
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:So, it's cultural appropriation. So, I side-eye people who appropriate culture that is not their own. So, you get defensive about that. So, you post a nonsensical question about "ownership."

That's what.


NP here. Hold the phone, so someone who's 100% Irish, though multiple generations American, is engaging in cultural appropriation if they name their daughter Aelish? Even if they have an Irish last name? And this is because they're now "American", not Irish? Then what names ARE American and acceptable under this reasoning?


If you didn't know how to pronounce the name growing up, it's not your culture. You're trying to put out that you have a connection to Ireland that is not there. There are Irish Americans that are still very closely connected to this culture -- they have living Irish people in their families, or they travel back and forth and keep close with relatives in Ireland. But those names aren't exotic to those people, they're just names. So again, if you didn't hear these names growing up, if you had to be taught how to pronounce them when you were thumbing through baby name books: then you are part of the diaspora, you are Irish American, you are not Irish. And it might hurt your feelings to learn this, but nobody hates Irish Americans who don't understand they're not actually Irish more than the Irish do. It's a pretense. That's why the Irish PP in this thread put an obligatory "Sully from Boston" dig in her response.

Sincerely, a Murphy


PP here - let me be clear, I have no dog in this fight. I'm a drop Irish along with half a dozen other nationalities and gave my kids family names. This is a thread about names, not about migration patterns and sociology. My point is, if "Irish Americans" aren't allowed to use certain names because of cultural appropriation, what names ARE they allowed to use? You're implying that for the vast majority of us generically "American" folks that have no remaining connection to the countries our ancestors came from, that there are names that are off limits and names that are permissible. Which names are which? Which names are permissible to you? Would you extend this rational to Italian Americans? African Americans?


If the name is so unique to a culture that not only do most people not know how to pronounce it upon seeing it spelled, but also the parents didn't know how to pronounce it upon seeing it spelled, then yes. Naming your kid that to stake out a connection to that culture is appropriation, and obnoxious.


DP. I really don't see how it can be appropriation when it's your own historical culture. Naming your kid Cohen when you are a Christian with no Jewish heritage is appropriation. Naming your kid Levi or Asher is not because those Old Testament names are part of shared heritage between Jews and Christians.

I am Jewish and no one in my family has used particularly Jewish names for several generations. But if I decide to name my kids Moshe or Simcha or Ruchel, that's not appropriation, it's just reaching back further in my own historical culture. Now, my family and peers would find those names silly because we aren't Orthodox, but that's different. I agree that naming your kid Saoirse when you have only a tentative connection with Ireland is silly, but it's not appropriation. It's just pretentious.
Anonymous
Post 08/18/2017 14:32     Subject: Re:s/o Names you like but rarely hear
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:So, it's cultural appropriation. So, I side-eye people who appropriate culture that is not their own. So, you get defensive about that. So, you post a nonsensical question about "ownership."

That's what.


NP here. Hold the phone, so someone who's 100% Irish, though multiple generations American, is engaging in cultural appropriation if they name their daughter Aelish? Even if they have an Irish last name? And this is because they're now "American", not Irish? Then what names ARE American and acceptable under this reasoning?


If you didn't know how to pronounce the name growing up, it's not your culture. You're trying to put out that you have a connection to Ireland that is not there. There are Irish Americans that are still very closely connected to this culture -- they have living Irish people in their families, or they travel back and forth and keep close with relatives in Ireland. But those names aren't exotic to those people, they're just names. So again, if you didn't hear these names growing up, if you had to be taught how to pronounce them when you were thumbing through baby name books: then you are part of the diaspora, you are Irish American, you are not Irish. And it might hurt your feelings to learn this, but nobody hates Irish Americans who don't understand they're not actually Irish more than the Irish do. It's a pretense. That's why the Irish PP in this thread put an obligatory "Sully from Boston" dig in her response.

Sincerely, a Murphy


PP here - let me be clear, I have no dog in this fight. I'm a drop Irish along with half a dozen other nationalities and gave my kids family names. This is a thread about names, not about migration patterns and sociology. My point is, if "Irish Americans" aren't allowed to use certain names because of cultural appropriation, what names ARE they allowed to use? You're implying that for the vast majority of us generically "American" folks that have no remaining connection to the countries our ancestors came from, that there are names that are off limits and names that are permissible. Which names are which? Which names are permissible to you? Would you extend this rational to Italian Americans? African Americans?


If the name is so unique to a culture that not only do most people not know how to pronounce it upon seeing it spelled, but also the parents didn't know how to pronounce it upon seeing it spelled, then yes. Naming your kid that to stake out a connection to that culture is appropriation, and obnoxious.


Agree, and also to the PP above - as I understand it, you're only "Irish" if you're from Ireland or otherwise have Irish nationality. Otherwise, you're Irish-American - and that is its own culture. I find nothing more obnoxious than meeting people who call themselves Irish when what they mean is that their long dead, never met, great-great-grandparents were from Ireland. You are not Irish! You are American, and if you want to be more specific, you are Irish-American. I am from Ireland, now I live here and have dual citizenship so I consider myself Irish and American.
Anonymous
Post 08/18/2017 14:28     Subject: Re:s/o Names you like but rarely hear
Boy names I'd love to hear: David, Gideon, Daniel, Joseph

Girl names: Ruth, Elizabeth (in full), Marigold, Clementine

I have old-fashioned taste, I guess!
Anonymous
Post 08/18/2017 14:26     Subject: Re:s/o Names you like but rarely hear
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:So, it's cultural appropriation. So, I side-eye people who appropriate culture that is not their own. So, you get defensive about that. So, you post a nonsensical question about "ownership."

That's what.


NP here. Hold the phone, so someone who's 100% Irish, though multiple generations American, is engaging in cultural appropriation if they name their daughter Aelish? Even if they have an Irish last name? And this is because they're now "American", not Irish? Then what names ARE American and acceptable under this reasoning?


If you didn't know how to pronounce the name growing up, it's not your culture. You're trying to put out that you have a connection to Ireland that is not there. There are Irish Americans that are still very closely connected to this culture -- they have living Irish people in their families, or they travel back and forth and keep close with relatives in Ireland. But those names aren't exotic to those people, they're just names. So again, if you didn't hear these names growing up, if you had to be taught how to pronounce them when you were thumbing through baby name books: then you are part of the diaspora, you are Irish American, you are not Irish. And it might hurt your feelings to learn this, but nobody hates Irish Americans who don't understand they're not actually Irish more than the Irish do. It's a pretense. That's why the Irish PP in this thread put an obligatory "Sully from Boston" dig in her response.

Sincerely, a Murphy


PP here - let me be clear, I have no dog in this fight. I'm a drop Irish along with half a dozen other nationalities and gave my kids family names. This is a thread about names, not about migration patterns and sociology. My point is, if "Irish Americans" aren't allowed to use certain names because of cultural appropriation, what names ARE they allowed to use? You're implying that for the vast majority of us generically "American" folks that have no remaining connection to the countries our ancestors came from, that there are names that are off limits and names that are permissible. Which names are which? Which names are permissible to you? Would you extend this rational to Italian Americans? African Americans?


If the name is so unique to a culture that not only do most people not know how to pronounce it upon seeing it spelled, but also the parents didn't know how to pronounce it upon seeing it spelled, then yes. Naming your kid that to stake out a connection to that culture is appropriation, and obnoxious.
Anonymous
Post 08/18/2017 14:21     Subject: Re:s/o Names you like but rarely hear
Anonymous wrote:So, it's cultural appropriation. So, I side-eye people who appropriate culture that is not their own. So, you get defensive about that. So, you post a nonsensical question about "ownership."

That's what.


NP here. Hold the phone, so someone who's 100% Irish, though multiple generations American, is engaging in cultural appropriation if they name their daughter Aelish? Even if they have an Irish last name? And this is because they're now "American", not Irish? Then what names ARE American and acceptable under this reasoning?


If you didn't know how to pronounce the name growing up, it's not your culture. You're trying to put out that you have a connection to Ireland that is not there. There are Irish Americans that are still very closely connected to this culture -- they have living Irish people in their families, or they travel back and forth and keep close with relatives in Ireland. But those names aren't exotic to those people, they're just names. So again, if you didn't hear these names growing up, if you had to be taught how to pronounce them when you were thumbing through baby name books: then you are part of the diaspora, you are Irish American, you are not Irish. And it might hurt your feelings to learn this, but nobody hates Irish Americans who don't understand they're not actually Irish more than the Irish do. It's a pretense. That's why the Irish PP in this thread put an obligatory "Sully from Boston" dig in her response.

Sincerely, a Murphy


PP here - let me be clear, I have no dog in this fight. I'm a drop Irish along with half a dozen other nationalities and gave my kids family names. This is a thread about names, not about migration patterns and sociology. My point is, if "Irish Americans" aren't allowed to use certain names because of cultural appropriation, what names ARE they allowed to use? You're implying that for the vast majority of us generically "American" folks that have no remaining connection to the countries our ancestors came from, that there are names that are off limits and names that are permissible. Which names are which? Which names are permissible to you? Would you extend this rational to Italian Americans? African Americans?
Anonymous
Post 08/18/2017 14:08     Subject: s/o Names you like but rarely hear
Anonymous wrote:I really like many 80s girl names: Amanda, Jessica, Heather, Kimberly, Amy, Nicole. Imagine meeting a baby named Amanda!


Right!?? Or Scott, or Eric. Seems insane now.
Anonymous
Post 08/18/2017 14:03     Subject: Re:s/o Names you like but rarely hear
Anonymous wrote:I really liked Naomi and Nina but DH vetoed both choices for our DD.

I also liked Nina but DH vetoed it because it would be "diminutive." We're Latino.
Anonymous
Post 08/18/2017 14:00     Subject: Re:s/o Names you like but rarely hear
I really liked Naomi and Nina but DH vetoed both choices for our DD.
Anonymous
Post 08/18/2017 13:55     Subject: Re:s/o Names you like but rarely hear
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Bridget is a classic name I dont hear too much. Mildred is my favorite "old person name" that I think should come back. Millie is adorable in my mind. Im done with all versions of Eleanor and Stella. Those old people names are DONE.


haha! The name Bridget is always interesting to me. Bridget is/was the stereotypical working/low class name in Ireland...it was THE name for Irish domestic maids/servants/the "help" so much so that for a really long time, many women would actually change their names to avoid that stereotype. I'm never sure if Irish American "never been to Ireland but my last name is Sullivan or O'Reilly!!!" crowd doesn't know this or doesn't care.


We know and don't care. Irish American naming conventions are distinct from Irish naming conventions, and this kind of class-nervousness doesn't mesh well with the large contingent of Irish Americans that take pride in the fact that we overcame discrimination.

That said, I have all the side-eye in the world for Irish Americans who've never been to Ireland buying into current bandwagon trend of naming their kids Aelish or Saorsie or Aoife. If someone had to teach you how to pronounce it after the age of 15, it's not your culture.


So what? Cultures don't own names.


So, it's cultural appropriation. So, I side-eye people who appropriate culture that is not their own. So, you get defensive about that. So, you post a nonsensical question about "ownership."

That's what.


NP here. Hold the phone, so someone who's 100% Irish, though multiple generations American, is engaging in cultural appropriation if they name their daughter Aelish? Even if they have an Irish last name? And this is because they're now "American", not Irish? Then what names ARE American and acceptable under this reasoning?


If you didn't know how to pronounce the name growing up, it's not your culture. You're trying to put out that you have a connection to Ireland that is not there. There are Irish Americans that are still very closely connected to this culture -- they have living Irish people in their families, or they travel back and forth and keep close with relatives in Ireland. But those names aren't exotic to those people, they're just names. So again, if you didn't hear these names growing up, if you had to be taught how to pronounce them when you were thumbing through baby name books: then you are part of the diaspora, you are Irish American, you are not Irish. And it might hurt your feelings to learn this, but nobody hates Irish Americans who don't understand they're not actually Irish more than the Irish do. It's a pretense. That's why the Irish PP in this thread put an obligatory "Sully from Boston" dig in her response.

Sincerely, a Murphy