Anonymous wrote:Chicks dig assholes. Nice guys finish last. It's an old story.

No, we simply aren't into spineless guys who are too afraid to state their intentions and who think we owe them a shot at a relationship simply because they are "nice". And its funny how those guys always think anybody else, especially guys that aren't cowards, are assholes. That's how conceited they are.

Here's a tip...if you like a girl, be assertive, ask her out. Don't pretend to be her friend hoping one day she will realize you are exactly the type of guy she needs because you are so nice. Then when it never happens don't start complaining you were friend-zoned or whatever other bullshit term "nice guys" use these days. If you really want to be her friend, then don't get all annoyed when she sees you as exactly what you have been telling her you are, a friend, and only that.

Sorry for the long rant, I've known several of these nice guys who think everybody else is an asshole and pretend to be your friends while hoping you will go out with them one day and I just can't stand it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Or her mother treated her this way. A lot of issues are connected to how your mom treated you from the time you were a baby. It's your most important, intimate relationship, and sets the tone for what is normal to you.

My mom was distant and never liked me. My father was loving and doted on me. Yet I found myself drawn to men I had to win over. (It didn't help that men typically chased me, so a challenging guy seemed more attractive.) And even when I thought I'd figured it all out, and told myself to go for men who'd treat me as my dad had, I still found myself with a man who had a tendency to distance himself and who didn't appreciate me. And I thought that was normal and what I deserved, since my NPD mom hadn't liked me. My saving grace was probably having a loving dad. I don't trust myself to

Wow, I could have written this. I essentially married my mom and didn't realize any of this crap until I was in my 40s (!!!) and had a child. However, I no longer look back on dad in such a positive light. While his love and affection maybe saved me from becoming a sociopath or psychopath, he knew what she was doing to me and he let it happen.

Ugh, I married my critical and controlling mom. Was there any hope to work it out in your marriage or did you have to get divorced?

I don't think critical and controlling people are likely to change. That's how they cope. You can only change yourself and how you react and how you do things. And if you divorce, you may end up with new version of the same person, unless you do a huge amount of work on yourself, to learn to recognize the traits and dynamic before you get emotionally involved.

Maybe the sex is good with him and nothing else.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Or her mother treated her this way. A lot of issues are connected to how your mom treated you from the time you were a baby. It's your most important, intimate relationship, and sets the tone for what is normal to you.

My mom was distant and never liked me. My father was loving and doted on me. Yet I found myself drawn to men I had to win over. (It didn't help that men typically chased me, so a challenging guy seemed more attractive.) And even when I thought I'd figured it all out, and told myself to go for men who'd treat me as my dad had, I still found myself with a man who had a tendency to distance himself and who didn't appreciate me. And I thought that was normal and what I deserved, since my NPD mom hadn't liked me. My saving grace was probably having a loving dad. I don't trust myself to

Wow, I could have written this. I essentially married my mom and didn't realize any of this crap until I was in my 40s (!!!) and had a child. However, I no longer look back on dad in such a positive light. While his love and affection maybe saved me from becoming a sociopath or psychopath, he knew what she was doing to me and he let it happen.

Ugh, I married my critical and controlling mom. Was there any hope to work it out in your marriage or did you have to get divorced?

I am the kind of woman OP described. It sucks. Irrational optimism, low self-esteem, high tolerance for crap behaviour that one can try to justify. Funny, I can't tell if OP is a female friend, would-be suitor of his cute but misguided friend, or the a-hole who is just trying to understand why his formula works (or how to dump the lingerers). I am pretty cynical now. Unfortunately, i am still putting up with that kind of bad behaviour and just thinking it will get better once the guy lets down his guard a bit. Sigh.

Anonymous wrote:Or her mother treated her this way. A lot of issues are connected to how your mom treated you from the time you were a baby. It's your most important, intimate relationship, and sets the tone for what is normal to you.

My mom was distant and never liked me. My father was loving and doted on me. Yet I found myself drawn to men I had to win over. (It didn't help that men typically chased me, so a challenging guy seemed more attractive.) And even when I thought I'd figured it all out, and told myself to go for men who'd treat me as my dad had, I still found myself with a man who had a tendency to distance himself and who didn't appreciate me. And I thought that was normal and what I deserved, since my NPD mom hadn't liked me. My saving grace was probably having a loving dad. I don't trust myself to

Wow, I could have written this. I essentially married my mom and didn't realize any of this crap until I was in my 40s (!!!) and had a child. However, I no longer look back on dad in such a positive light. While his love and affection maybe saved me from becoming a sociopath or psychopath, he knew what she was doing to me and he let it happen.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a good friend who is cute as a button and has a quirky but endearing to all personality. She is gorgeous and I think could have her pick of men. But she is dating someone who refused to call her his girlfriend for MONTHS (she loves to tell this story as if it's adorable), and is generally rude to her and acts like she's a nuisance. The man is not traditionally attractive by most societal ideas of beauty- and not wealthy, etc- so it seems utterly baffling to me as to why she is with him. He seems to be annoyed by her very presence.

My question is- WHY does this happen? And if you were a woman in this kind of relationship what happened with it (i.e. still together, broke up, you realized you could do better, he ended it, etc) and why, psychologically, were you in it?

What about her relationship with her father, or long term father figure such as a step father? Also, what about her mother's relationship with a man/men while she grew up?

This. Most often, it's this. People, even without realizing it, gravitate toward what is familiar to them, what was their "normal" growing up. Either her father treated her that way or her father treated her mother that way, and it normalized that kind of relationship dynamic for her. It's comfortable to her.

The other possibility is that she was abused, neglected, had some sort of trauma growing up and has a deep down feeling of inadequacy, low self-worth.

I can testify to this. My divorced parents constantly put me down as far back as elementary school. I was handed to my grandmother as an infant and my parents just didn't like the way I turned out. I was blamed for the divorce, for not being attractive, for not maturing physically at the same rate as my friends, for being quiet/stupid. I am now a single parent and I either date men who don't want me or the feel unworthy of those who show interest. Every break up kills me. Every achievement I have had in adulthood is still played down by my dad. Think.....you should have bought a SFH instead of a townhome. You look better now because the last time I saw you was a disaster.
Most women attracted to jerks have deep deep deep seated issues.

How old are you now? Is your child's father a good role model?

PP mentioned looking up Louise Hay. She is amazing. A former friend gave me one of her books to read years ago and it was transformative for me.

I am 40 and my child's father loves to play with his kid but doesn't pay child support and shies away from playing the proper role of a father.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a good friend who is cute as a button and has a quirky but endearing to all personality. She is gorgeous and I think could have her pick of men. But she is dating someone who refused to call her his girlfriend for MONTHS (she loves to tell this story as if it's adorable), and is generally rude to her and acts like she's a nuisance. The man is not traditionally attractive by most societal ideas of beauty- and not wealthy, etc- so it seems utterly baffling to me as to why she is with him. He seems to be annoyed by her very presence.

My question is- WHY does this happen? And if you were a woman in this kind of relationship what happened with it (i.e. still together, broke up, you realized you could do better, he ended it, etc) and why, psychologically, were you in it?

What about her relationship with her father, or long term father figure such as a step father? Also, what about her mother's relationship with a man/men while she grew up?

This. Most often, it's this. People, even without realizing it, gravitate toward what is familiar to them, what was their "normal" growing up. Either her father treated her that way or her father treated her mother that way, and it normalized that kind of relationship dynamic for her. It's comfortable to her.

The other possibility is that she was abused, neglected, had some sort of trauma growing up and has a deep down feeling of inadequacy, low self-worth.

I can testify to this. My divorced parents constantly put me down as far back as elementary school. I was handed to my grandmother as an infant and my parents just didn't like the way I turned out. I was blamed for the divorce, for not being attractive, for not maturing physically at the same rate as my friends, for being quiet/stupid. I am now a single parent and I either date men who don't want me or the feel unworthy of those who show interest. Every break up kills me. Every achievement I have had in adulthood is still played down by my dad. Think.....you should have bought a SFH instead of a townhome. You look better now because the last time I saw you was a disaster.
Most women attracted to jerks have deep deep deep seated issues.

How old are you now? Is your child's father a good role model?

PP mentioned looking up Louise Hay. She is amazing. A former friend gave me one of her books to read years ago and it was transformative for me.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
This happened because I called myself trying to be patient, and was maybe also in a bit of denial. The red flags of this guy's modus operandi was there from day one, showing how flaky and distant he could be, as he didn't return calls, stood me up, cancelled dates at the last minute. The only reason I hung in there is because when he did f*ck up, he'd come on really strong, which made me think he cared. But then he would go right back to his old ways rather quickly. These guys are very charming, and know all the right things to say and do to make a women feel emotionally secure. It's quite scary actually, because you find out they don't mean any of it.

We also get along really well, and I liked the attention, when I got it. This made it harder to walk away.

...

They can play the nice guy really well, but be an undercover low key type of asshole. I find it hard to tell the difference.

Once again, as the old saying goes: treat 'em like shit, and they'll love you forever.

"Treat a whore like a lady, and a lady like a whore."

But seriously, some of these guys sound like undercover narcissists.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I did this with my now fiance.

For the first year and a half we were dating he was not really into me and was still in love with his ex-girlfriend. I was lonely had seriously low self esteem issues and did not believe I could do better or that it was possible I deserved a guy's undivided attention. It sucked. Thankfully he had a major change of heart and is now crazy in love with me.

This seems... sad and depressing.

Very sad.

Why does this seem sad to people when the fiancé is now crazy in love with the PP?

NP, but it's likely he's not crazy in love with her and this is exactly the kind of a situation after thte ends in divorce and starts with the phrase " in hindsight"

This is PP. This is not true at all. My fiance aand I are crazy in love. He was 23 when all of the above happened. We have both grown up a lot.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a good friend who is cute as a button and has a quirky but endearing to all personality. She is gorgeous and I think could have her pick of men. But she is dating someone who refused to call her his girlfriend for MONTHS (she loves to tell this story as if it's adorable), and is generally rude to her and acts like she's a nuisance. The man is not traditionally attractive by most societal ideas of beauty- and not wealthy, etc- so it seems utterly baffling to me as to why she is with him. He seems to be annoyed by her very presence.

My question is- WHY does this happen? And if you were a woman in this kind of relationship what happened with it (i.e. still together, broke up, you realized you could do better, he ended it, etc) and why, psychologically, were you in it?

What about her relationship with her father, or long term father figure such as a step father? Also, what about her mother's relationship with a man/men while she grew up?

This. Most often, it's this. People, even without realizing it, gravitate toward what is familiar to them, what was their "normal" growing up. Either her father treated her that way or her father treated her mother that way, and it normalized that kind of relationship dynamic for her. It's comfortable to her.

The other possibility is that she was abused, neglected, had some sort of trauma growing up and has a deep down feeling of inadequacy, low self-worth.

I can testify to this. My divorced parents constantly put me down as far back as elementary school. I was handed to my grandmother as an infant and my parents just didn't like the way I turned out. I was blamed for the divorce, for not being attractive, for not maturing physically at the same rate as my friends, for being quiet/stupid. I am now a single parent and I either date men who don't want me or the feel unworthy of those who show interest. Every break up kills me. Every achievement I have had in adulthood is still played down by my dad. Think.....you should have bought a SFH instead of a townhome. You look better now because the last time I saw you was a disaster.
Most women attracted to jerks have deep deep deep seated issues.

You need to cut your jerk father out of your life and work on building self esteem! It sounds corny but honestly try looking in the mirror and saying "Larla, (it's important to say your name) I love you." And repeat that. Louise Hay suggested this exercise (She's great and look her up) and it has worked so well for me. I used to be very unsure of myself and now I'm the most confident woman you will ever meet! We CAN relearn our patterns and fix our lives!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a good friend who is cute as a button and has a quirky but endearing to all personality. She is gorgeous and I think could have her pick of men. But she is dating someone who refused to call her his girlfriend for MONTHS (she loves to tell this story as if it's adorable), and is generally rude to her and acts like she's a nuisance. The man is not traditionally attractive by most societal ideas of beauty- and not wealthy, etc- so it seems utterly baffling to me as to why she is with him. He seems to be annoyed by her very presence.

My question is- WHY does this happen? And if you were a woman in this kind of relationship what happened with it (i.e. still together, broke up, you realized you could do better, he ended it, etc) and why, psychologically, were you in it?

What about her relationship with her father, or long term father figure such as a step father? Also, what about her mother's relationship with a man/men while she grew up?

This. Most often, it's this. People, even without realizing it, gravitate toward what is familiar to them, what was their "normal" growing up. Either her father treated her that way or her father treated her mother that way, and it normalized that kind of relationship dynamic for her. It's comfortable to her.

The other possibility is that she was abused, neglected, had some sort of trauma growing up and has a deep down feeling of inadequacy, low self-worth.

I can testify to this. My divorced parents constantly put me down as far back as elementary school. I was handed to my grandmother as an infant and my parents just didn't like the way I turned out. I was blamed for the divorce, for not being attractive, for not maturing physically at the same rate as my friends, for being quiet/stupid. I am now a single parent and I either date men who don't want me or the feel unworthy of those who show interest. Every break up kills me. Every achievement I have had in adulthood is still played down by my dad. Think.....you should have bought a SFH instead of a townhome. You look better now because the last time I saw you was a disaster.
Most women attracted to jerks have deep deep deep seated issues.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
This happened because I called myself trying to be patient, and was maybe also in a bit of denial. The red flags of this guy's modus operandi was there from day one, showing how flaky and distant he could be, as he didn't return calls, stood me up, cancelled dates at the last minute. The only reason I hung in there is because when he did f*ck up, he'd come on really strong, which made me think he cared. But then he would go right back to his old ways rather quickly. These guys are very charming, and know all the right things to say and do to make a women feel emotionally secure. It's quite scary actually, because you find out they don't mean any of it.

We also get along really well, and I liked the attention, when I got it. This made it harder to walk away.

...

They can play the nice guy really well, but be an undercover low key type of asshole. I find it hard to tell the difference.

Once again, as the old saying goes: treat 'em like shit, and they'll love you forever.

That's my motto when it comes to men. It works like a charm.

Anonymous wrote:

The day I became a jerk, my dating life skyrocketed.

How do you define being "a jerk?"

Anonymous wrote:
This happened because I called myself trying to be patient, and was maybe also in a bit of denial. The red flags of this guy's modus operandi was there from day one, showing how flaky and distant he could be, as he didn't return calls, stood me up, cancelled dates at the last minute. The only reason I hung in there is because when he did f*ck up, he'd come on really strong, which made me think he cared. But then he would go right back to his old ways rather quickly. These guys are very charming, and know all the right things to say and do to make a women feel emotionally secure. It's quite scary actually, because you find out they don't mean any of it.

We also get along really well, and I liked the attention, when I got it. This made it harder to walk away.

...

They can play the nice guy really well, but be an undercover low key type of asshole. I find it hard to tell the difference.

Once again, as the old saying goes: treat 'em like shit, and they'll love you forever.