Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:. Can I send them articles or is that too passive aggressive?

Not appropriate unless you're a lawyer too, and even then you're pushing it.

I would only recommend law school if:
1. She really wants to be a lawyer and has an understanding of what that means.
2. She gets into a top 15 school or a top 80 school with a free ride.
3. She has realistic ideas of career prospects -- no dreams of fancy international law career, no sports law, etc.

-- law school professor

I agree. Maybe encourage your niece to work a little in the field before going to law school. With a STEM background, maybe paralegal at a firm that does intellectual property work? Or an investigator at a public defender's office? Intern in the legal department of an environment related non-profit?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. You all confirmed my fears. I don't imagine her getting into a T10, maybe a T14, but probably somewhere in the 20s. She's a biology major at an okay public school so her grades are probably not up to par. Does it help that she's a STEM major? I feel like she's being too idealistic about this and her parents are being too encouraging. Can I send them articles or is that too passive aggressive?

If she can get into a T14, she might be able to get into a T50 with significant money/free ride (e.g., UMD, American, GMU). That would most likely lead to a better outcome than a school in the 8-14 range at sticker. Even if she "wins" (i.e., gets biglaw) the debt, thanks to continuing tuition hikes, will be so crushing that she will just be working to pay that off and stands a reasonable chance of getting "the talk" just as the loans are paid and going inhouse or government at an okay but not mind-blowing salary.

Going to a state flagship that has a decent ranking with a free ride, she would most likely get biglaw (if she got into a T14, as long as she works hard she should be in the top 10-15%, which should still be sufficient to land biglaw) and be able to bank serious money during her few high-earning years.

In sum, no - law school is generally not worth it.

Good advice here. This is what I did (almost 20 year ago). Free ride at a state flagship ranked in the 30s. I didn't pay for a thing other than living expenses (in a lower COL city) and the university's gym fee (the law school apologized profusely for not being able to waive it for me!). I didn't know this when I started, but my living expenses were essentially covered by the money I made as a summer associate my 1L and 2L summers. Graduated at the top of the class and went to biglaw. But even if I hadn't got a biglaw job (which is never a given, especially coming out of a non T14 law school), I had no student loan debt at all. I could have afforded to take a less lucrative job.

I'd tell your niece to seriously consider a full ride at a less prestigious school if that is an option for her. I could have gone to a "better" law school, and at the time I went, I did wonder if I was doing the right thing. But since then I have never had a doubt that I did the right thing. I got a terrific legal education, thoroughly enjoyed my three years of law school, and got my JD debt free. I'm sure that going to a lower ranked school foreclosed some options for me - being a law professor, getting a Supreme Court clerkship, etc. - but those things were never relatistically on the table for me anyway. I'm sure some attorneys (especially on a place like DCUM) feel superior to me because they attended better schools, but I know I'm just as intelligent as they are, and I know I did the right thing.

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]No, most things can be done with legal zoom and rocket lawyer[/quote]

You clearly have no idea what lawyers do. Our company spends millions a year for both its legal department and outside counsel who all perform work that can't be done by legal zoom or rocket lawyer.[/quote]

Yeh sure but a lot of work has been automated[/quote]

automation is hurting shitlawyers/solos who do wills and very low end work. it may ultimately have some impact on biglaw hiring, but probably not very much and may possibly have no real effect. while the type of bs doc review/basic research done by first year associates can be automated, biglaw still is going to have to hire classes of associates to move up the ranks to do the stuff that cannot be automated.

[/quote]

Lawyers end up in government as well

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, most things can be done with legal zoom and rocket lawyer

You clearly have no idea what lawyers do. Our company spends millions a year for both its legal department and outside counsel who all perform work that can't be done by legal zoom or rocket lawyer.

Yeh sure but a lot of work has been automated

automation is hurting shitlawyers/solos who do wills and very low end work. it may ultimately have some impact on biglaw hiring, but probably not very much and may possibly have no real effect. while the type of bs doc review/basic research done by first year associates can be automated, biglaw still is going to have to hire classes of associates to move up the ranks to do the stuff that cannot be automated.

Anonymous wrote:Look for schools that have a joint degree program maybe MBA/JD or MPH/JD. You can do it in 4 years. The answer to the question is as others say a financial calculus. If you must take on a big amount of debt you need to consider your job prospects. Health care is a growing field that is not actually over saturated yet at the large firm level because it is highly specialized etc. You said she doesn't want that but walking in-house with nothing other than a law school degree is tough because you have no practical experience. She should consider trying for big firm practice for 3-5 years and then look to move to a client. Like others, I would not advise anyone to take on 250k of debt unless they were at a top school. If parents have money and are willing to pay or she can get scholarships to lesser schools then that should factor in.

Agree that she really needs to run the numbers and give it some consideration. Six figures of debt at around 6% interest is a serious commitment.

Look for schools that have a joint degree program maybe MBA/JD or MPH/JD. You can do it in 4 years. The answer to the question is as others say a financial calculus. If you must take on a big amount of debt you need to consider your job prospects. Health care is a growing field that is not actually over saturated yet at the large firm level because it is highly specialized etc. You said she doesn't want that but walking in-house with nothing other than a law school degree is tough because you have no practical experience. She should consider trying for big firm practice for 3-5 years and then look to move to a client. Like others, I would not advise anyone to take on 250k of debt unless they were at a top school. If parents have money and are willing to pay or she can get scholarships to lesser schools then that should factor in.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most people doing policy work have a JD.

... Because they had to hustle to find a job after they realized they were not getting biglaw.

+1 This is true. But it seems like work that can be done without a JD, no?

It absolutely can. The only reason employers get away with paying a JD 60k to work in "policy" is because there is a huge glut of lawyers, especially in DC. There are so many struggling law school graduates that many non-legal openings on the Hill will "prefer" a JD degree. They realize that there is a difference between being overqualified and desperate.

Yes. This is exactly right

Anonymous wrote:OP here. You all confirmed my fears. I don't imagine her getting into a T10, maybe a T14, but probably somewhere in the 20s. She's a biology major at an okay public school so her grades are probably not up to par. Does it help that she's a STEM major? I feel like she's being too idealistic about this and her parents are being too encouraging. Can I send them articles or is that too passive aggressive?

If she can get into a T14, she might be able to get into a T50 with significant money/free ride (e.g., UMD, American, GMU). That would most likely lead to a better outcome than a school in the 8-14 range at sticker. Even if she "wins" (i.e., gets biglaw) the debt, thanks to continuing tuition hikes, will be so crushing that she will just be working to pay that off and stands a reasonable chance of getting "the talk" just as the loans are paid and going inhouse or government at an okay but not mind-blowing salary.

Going to a state flagship that has a decent ranking with a free ride, she would most likely get biglaw (if she got into a T14, as long as she works hard she should be in the top 10-15%, which should still be sufficient to land biglaw) and be able to bank serious money during her few high-earning years.

In sum, no - law school is generally not worth it.

Anonymous wrote:Ditto pp. Why is it your business OP? Law school is a great field of study and if she doesn't go into big debt, it is a good degree to have. I went to TIII law school and have done fine. No debt and always good jobs. It is hard to find a job in law these days, but she only needs one job..If she does well, she'll be fine.

Let me guess: you are over age 45

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, most things can be done with legal zoom and rocket lawyer

You clearly have no idea what lawyers do. Our company spends millions a year for both its legal department and outside counsel who all perform work that can't be done by legal zoom or rocket lawyer.

Yeh sure but a lot of work has been automated

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, most things can be done with legal zoom and rocket lawyer

You clearly have no idea what lawyers do. Our company spends millions a year for both its legal department and outside counsel who all perform work that can't be done by legal zoom or rocket lawyer.

Yeh sure but a lot of work has been automated

Anonymous wrote:Ditto pp. Why is it your business OP? Law school is a great field of study and if she doesn't go into big debt, it is a good degree to have. I went to TIII law school and have done fine. No debt and always good jobs. It is hard to find a job in law these days, but she only needs one job..If she does well, she'll be fine.

Lucky for OP's niece, there is an entire movement built around saving prospective law school students from people like yourself.

http://www.lawschooltransparency.com

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most people doing policy work have a JD.

... Because they had to hustle to find a job after they realized they were not getting biglaw.

+1 This is true. But it seems like work that can be done without a JD, no?

It absolutely can. The only reason employers get away with paying a JD 60k to work in "policy" is because there is a huge glut of lawyers, especially in DC. There are so many struggling law school graduates that many non-legal openings on the Hill will "prefer" a JD degree. They realize that there is a difference between being overqualified and desperate.

Ditto pp. Why is it your business OP? Law school is a great field of study and if she doesn't go into big debt, it is a good degree to have. I went to TIII law school and have done fine. No debt and always good jobs. It is hard to find a job in law these days, but she only needs one job..If she does well, she'll be fine.

OP, how is any of this your business?

You won't be paying for it. It's not your child.

I'm not a lawyer. I have friends who went to law school. For some, it has worked out (none of them are Biglaw). For others, they changed careers. None of them are unemployed or not doing well.

If you discourage her and she ends up regretting *not* going to law school, you will be blamed.

She's an adult. She can make her own decisions. Don't try to micromanage someone else's life.