Anonymous
Post 08/31/2016 10:11     Subject: Confederate flag in cube
For all of the free speech posters, what if instead of a confederate flag, this employee had a calendar of girls in skimpy bikinis at his desk or nude women from playboy? This would clearly not be allowed, yet these things are legal and asking to remove them would be an infringement of free speech, so to say.
Anonymous
Post 08/31/2016 09:46     Subject: Confederate flag in cube
HR as other have stated. He may be dangerous and trying to provoke a fight. And, who knows, he may bring weapons to work.
Anonymous
Post 08/31/2016 09:46     Subject: Confederate flag in cube
Anonymous wrote:HR

This is a hostile work environment. Do not confront this guy.


When I was at Oxford, I had to pass a dorm with a HUGE Confederate flag in it on my way to lecture. The occupant was clearly using it as a curtain. The first time, I was so surprised at how vile it was, I ambled on and just felt sick. The next time, I didn't hesitate and went into the building (generally a no-no if you're not a member of that college) and informed the person on staff of what it meant as an American, the message of hate that it sent. It was gone the next time I walked past.

Go to HR. It's not your job to educate your co-worker. It IS HR's job to cleanse the environment of this sort of viciousness.
Anonymous
Post 08/31/2016 09:44     Subject: Confederate flag in cube
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Foreigner here. Why is this automatically offensive?
Isn't there a historical angle to this, and not a racist one?


Some make that argument. I don't buy it. While it might be that some do not intend to use it as a racist/hostile symbol, just imagine how you would feel if you were a descendant of slaves and had to see, in your workplace, the symbol of the secessionists who went to war to maintain slavery. Heck, I am not a descendant of slaves and the Confederate flag makes me uncomfortable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War


Wasn't the confederate flag not offensive in the 80s? I remember it on the car in Dukes of Hazard and it wasn't an issue. When did it become a symbol of slavery? (I'm just curious, I'm also a foreigner,moved here as a child)

There are two groups who use the confederate flag: those who use it as a symbol of southern pride, and those who use it as a symbol of white supremacy. Back in the '80s, it was a symbol of southern pride. The meanings have blurred considerably since then. This came to a head last year when Dylann Roof posted pictures of himself draped in a confederate flag and then walked into a church and shot nine African Americans during a prayer service. Now, it is very difficult to display that flag and declare that it's only southern pride. Now, it's racist.


Great logic.

Explains why, after the repeated cop killings in the name of BLM, it's pretty obvious than anyone displaying any kind of BLM sign is racist.
Anonymous
Post 08/31/2016 09:39     Subject: Confederate flag in cube
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Foreigner here. Why is this automatically offensive?
Isn't there a historical angle to this, and not a racist one?


Yes, the historical angle where a group of people believe you should be able to own other people the same way you own a tv or a tractor, and use them in pretty much the same manner. And that rights and liberties should be determined by skin color. So they may not consider themselves "racist", because they don't hate the people, the same way they don't hate their TVs or tractors.


Let's point the obvious, shall we? That's your version of events, not theirs -- they just wanted to gain independence, same as the colonies had gained independence from England.

Who's right or wrong doesn't matter in this case...free speech rules.


It might matter to the people that prefer not being treated like TVs or tractors. I don't have a version of the events - I wasn't there. Chances are this guy wasn't either, and I highly doubt that the flag brings back any strong feeling of his desire to gain independence from the federal government (aka his employer).
Anonymous
Post 08/31/2016 09:37     Subject: Confederate flag in cube
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

Wasn't the confederate flag not offensive in the 80s? I remember it on the car in Dukes of Hazard and it wasn't an issue. When did it become a symbol of slavery? (I'm just curious, I'm also a foreigner,moved here as a child)

There are two groups who use the confederate flag: those who use it as a symbol of southern pride, and those who use it as a symbol of white supremacy. Back in the '80s, it was a symbol of southern pride. The meanings have blurred considerably since then. This came to a head last year when Dylann Roof posted pictures of himself draped in a confederate flag and then walked into a church and shot nine African Americans during a prayer service. Now, it is very difficult to display that flag and declare that it's only southern pride. Now, it's racist.


That's your opinion/observation. No laws against it.

Which is why you can't be arrested for displaying it. There is no protection from losing your job over it.


He can't get fired in Fed Govt for displaying it


What if he displayed a swastika or an Isis flag? Really, he couldn't be fired for it? I think the fed offers a ridiculous amount of leniency but even they must have their limits on what people display over their desks. Now, I'm sure the confederate flag comes nowhere close to that limit.
Anonymous
Post 08/31/2016 09:34     Subject: Confederate flag in cube
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Foreigner here. Why is this automatically offensive?
Isn't there a historical angle to this, and not a racist one?


Some make that argument. I don't buy it. While it might be that some do not intend to use it as a racist/hostile symbol, just imagine how you would feel if you were a descendant of slaves and had to see, in your workplace, the symbol of the secessionists who went to war to maintain slavery. Heck, I am not a descendant of slaves and the Confederate flag makes me uncomfortable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War


Wasn't the confederate flag not offensive in the 80s? I remember it on the car in Dukes of Hazard and it wasn't an issue. When did it become a symbol of slavery? (I'm just curious, I'm also a foreigner,moved here as a child)

There are two groups who use the confederate flag: those who use it as a symbol of southern pride, and those who use it as a symbol of white supremacy. Back in the '80s, it was a symbol of southern pride. The meanings have blurred considerably since then. This came to a head last year when Dylann Roof posted pictures of himself draped in a confederate flag and then walked into a church and shot nine African Americans during a prayer service. Now, it is very difficult to display that flag and declare that it's only southern pride. Now, it's racist.


That's your opinion/observation. No laws against it.

Which is why you can't be arrested for displaying it. There is no protection from losing your job over it.


He can't get fired in Fed Govt for displaying it

Anonymous
Post 08/31/2016 09:32     Subject: Confederate flag in cube
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Foreigner here. Why is this automatically offensive?
Isn't there a historical angle to this, and not a racist one?


Some make that argument. I don't buy it. While it might be that some do not intend to use it as a racist/hostile symbol, just imagine how you would feel if you were a descendant of slaves and had to see, in your workplace, the symbol of the secessionists who went to war to maintain slavery. Heck, I am not a descendant of slaves and the Confederate flag makes me uncomfortable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War


Wasn't the confederate flag not offensive in the 80s? I remember it on the car in Dukes of Hazard and it wasn't an issue. When did it become a symbol of slavery? (I'm just curious, I'm also a foreigner,moved here as a child)

There are two groups who use the confederate flag: those who use it as a symbol of southern pride, and those who use it as a symbol of white supremacy. Back in the '80s, it was a symbol of southern pride. The meanings have blurred considerably since then. This came to a head last year when Dylann Roof posted pictures of himself draped in a confederate flag and then walked into a church and shot nine African Americans during a prayer service. Now, it is very difficult to display that flag and declare that it's only southern pride. Now, it's racist.


That's your opinion/observation. No laws against it.

Which is why you can't be arrested for displaying it. There is no protection from losing your job over it.
Anonymous
Post 08/31/2016 09:30     Subject: Confederate flag in cube
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Foreigner here. Why is this automatically offensive?
Isn't there a historical angle to this, and not a racist one?


Some make that argument. I don't buy it. While it might be that some do not intend to use it as a racist/hostile symbol, just imagine how you would feel if you were a descendant of slaves and had to see, in your workplace, the symbol of the secessionists who went to war to maintain slavery. Heck, I am not a descendant of slaves and the Confederate flag makes me uncomfortable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War


Wasn't the confederate flag not offensive in the 80s? I remember it on the car in Dukes of Hazard and it wasn't an issue. When did it become a symbol of slavery? (I'm just curious, I'm also a foreigner,moved here as a child)

There are two groups who use the confederate flag: those who use it as a symbol of southern pride, and those who use it as a symbol of white supremacy. Back in the '80s, it was a symbol of southern pride. The meanings have blurred considerably since then. This came to a head last year when Dylann Roof posted pictures of himself draped in a confederate flag and then walked into a church and shot nine African Americans during a prayer service. Now, it is very difficult to display that flag and declare that it's only southern pride. Now, it's racist.


That's your opinion/observation. No laws against it.
Anonymous
Post 08/31/2016 09:29     Subject: Confederate flag in cube
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Foreigner here. Why is this automatically offensive?
Isn't there a historical angle to this, and not a racist one?


Some make that argument. I don't buy it. While it might be that some do not intend to use it as a racist/hostile symbol, just imagine how you would feel if you were a descendant of slaves and had to see, in your workplace, the symbol of the secessionists who went to war to maintain slavery. Heck, I am not a descendant of slaves and the Confederate flag makes me uncomfortable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War


Wasn't the confederate flag not offensive in the 80s? I remember it on the car in Dukes of Hazard and it wasn't an issue. When did it become a symbol of slavery? (I'm just curious, I'm also a foreigner,moved here as a child)

There are two groups who use the confederate flag: those who use it as a symbol of southern pride, and those who use it as a symbol of white supremacy. Back in the '80s, it was a symbol of southern pride. The meanings have blurred considerably since then. This came to a head last year when Dylann Roof posted pictures of himself draped in a confederate flag and then walked into a church and shot nine African Americans during a prayer service. Now, it is very difficult to display that flag and declare that it's only southern pride. Now, it's racist.
Anonymous
Post 08/31/2016 09:27     Subject: Confederate flag in cube
Anonymous wrote:Federal employment counsel here.

HR would probably come to me for a legal opinion. Federal employees have First Amendment rights that the government (acting as their employer) cannot violate except in certain situations. While I haven't researched this issue and this post isn't a legal opinion, I don't believe that this employee could be instructed to put away his Confederate Flag cube and I also don't believe it's an EEO violation. It alone without more does not create a hostile work environment.

None of that means that other employees or his manager could not encourage him to be more thoughtful, inclusive, or considerate about his choices. But I suspect that is a non-starter. Federal employees are a diverse group and it is his choice to decorate his cubicle, within certain limitations. I don't believe that, legally, he has exceeded those limitations.


What are those certain limitations? There must be more than playboy calendars on the list?

But, I do agree that if BLM stuff is allowed, then his flag should be. Both are things I disagree with but I don't see them as fundamentally different.
Anonymous
Post 08/31/2016 09:24     Subject: Confederate flag in cube
Exactly what rules is he violating?
Anonymous
Post 08/31/2016 09:22     Subject: Confederate flag in cube
HR

This is a hostile work environment. Do not confront this guy.
Anonymous
Post 08/31/2016 09:21     Subject: Confederate flag in cube
Let's keep in mind that while free speech does allow us a lot of freedom at home and in the workplace, it simply states that you can't be arrested for what you say (or display). It doesn't say you can't be fired. If the guy displayed a swastika and refused to remove it, he'd be fired and the first amendment would not protect him from that.
Anonymous
Post 08/31/2016 09:19     Subject: Confederate flag in cube
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Foreigner here. Why is this automatically offensive?
Isn't there a historical angle to this, and not a racist one?


Some make that argument. I don't buy it. While it might be that some do not intend to use it as a racist/hostile symbol, just imagine how you would feel if you were a descendant of slaves and had to see, in your workplace, the symbol of the secessionists who went to war to maintain slavery. Heck, I am not a descendant of slaves and the Confederate flag makes me uncomfortable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War


Wasn't the confederate flag not offensive in the 80s? I remember it on the car in Dukes of Hazard and it wasn't an issue. When did it become a symbol of slavery? (I'm just curious, I'm also a foreigner,moved here as a child)