How do you know spanking causes harm?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's have an honest discussion. I think spanking is wrong. I think it can damage kids and cause distrust. More broadly, i believe (and i think some studies have shown) that demonstrating the resolution of problems, or enforcement of boundaries / one's wishes greatly contributes to a world where our impulses are to shove, punch, bully, murder, execute, and nuke one another into submission. At the same time, I can't even with these people who say EVERY child will respond well to positive reinforcement only and that anyone whose child doesn't respond isn't doing it right. i know spanking is wrong, and yet i don't have a foolproof substitute!

Why would it damage kids and cause distrust any more than any other punishment? I'm up for a civil discussion. My assessment is that it all depends on how it's explained and implemented.

+1
My kid thinks I'm mean when I punish him by taking away his electronic time. I think he'd rather I just spank him than take away his electronic time. He's 11. I don't think he remembers being spanked when he was 5, but he does probably remember when I spanked him when he was 8.

What did he do in those cases to get a spanking, and are you in the same camp as the previous poster in terms of how you do it?

He was very disrespectful to me when I asked him to do something. He was given warnings about this previously. I turned him around where he stood and gave him a quick whack on the backside fully clothed. Now, when he starts to speak disrespectfully to me, I just give him a look, and he knows better because he knows he'll get electronic time taken away. That's the atomic bomb for him. When he was 5, he didn't have much electronic time, and he certainly didn't cherish it like he does now.

So he's scared you will hit him. He's frightened of you.

Yea, that's why he gives me a hug every night at bed time ...because he's afraid of me. He's told me about his latest crush. I don't think he'd do that if he was afraid of me. Nice try though. Do you honestly think every person who was ever spanked is afraid of their parents? No. You have some issues.

But I agree with a PP... a kid should be somewhat afraid of getting into trouble from their parents. That doesn't mean they will grow up to be mortally afraid of their parents or do crazy things when they leave their parents house. There are thousands, millions of people over hundreds/thousands of years who were spanked by their parents but don't fear them, and go on to live very normal, law abiding lives. You are strange to think otherwise.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's have an honest discussion. I think spanking is wrong. I think it can damage kids and cause distrust. More broadly, i believe (and i think some studies have shown) that demonstrating the resolution of problems, or enforcement of boundaries / one's wishes greatly contributes to a world where our impulses are to shove, punch, bully, murder, execute, and nuke one another into submission. At the same time, I can't even with these people who say EVERY child will respond well to positive reinforcement only and that anyone whose child doesn't respond isn't doing it right. i know spanking is wrong, and yet i don't have a foolproof substitute!

Why would it damage kids and cause distrust any more than any other punishment? I'm up for a civil discussion. My assessment is that it all depends on how it's explained and implemented.

Yay for civility!

I don't think that every spanking causes lasting, irreversable, major damage to children but i'd be willing to bet that the way most people are doing it does some damage, the way most people are doing it and the way they THINK they are doing it is probably a good deal different, and also that even the most benign instance is still carrying the capability to cause some damage. Why? Well, there are probably numerous studies that lay out why it does damage, but to me the duty of a parent to protect child from harm, and the need for the child to 100 percent feel physically safe with the parent is sacrosanct. Every time you spank, you're eroding that trust just a little bit, even temporarily. While there are certainly lots of ways to undo trust that do not involve parents striking and intentionally inflicting physical pain on the child, I don't think these are okay, either. I think there is probably a continuum where on one end you get the parent fluttering around trying to lovingly redirect where there is minimal harm done in the immediate sense (but depending on the circumstance if the kid isn't really getting any discipline and boundaries some lifelong consequences there too) to severe emotional abuse or physical abuse being on the other side of the continuum. I'm talking about child abuse there. Spanking, to me, has more in common with the abuse because at the end of the day, no matter how well intentioned, it is the trusted parent figure that is intentionally causing physical pain, there is a great risk of a breach opening up.

But why is moderate and controlled physical pain somehow more detrimental than the emotional pain that you cause by any other punishment, such as putting a child in timeout (which can be physical in itself) and denying the opportunity for interaction with others?

PP here so I'll just reply to these replies separately.

I wouldn't necessarily say that spanking is the only or worst way to cause damage. I only said that I think it causes damage, and it does. And again I think there are studies that back this up, but if you're spanking you probably don't believe in the studies anyway so I'll save that argument for someone who it would appeal to more. Since we're talking person to person, my personal feeling again is that there is a continuum for the potential to damage a child. Calling a child "fatso" perpetually is WAY worse, to my mind, than a one time slap in the face, but both are awful things to do to a child. So, take spanking (physical pain) vs. banishment (time out) and I think both are probably sub-optimal but in terms of breaking trust, the parent hurting the child intentionally (even if it's "controlled and moderate") is more damaging in most cases. But i'll be honest that I also do not really like time outs. I'm up front about the fact that I don't see a really perfect alternative. I think most of us are probably doing a little unintentional damage to our children, but to me, eliminating spanking, which I *know* causes harm, is something I know better than to do, so I do not do it and don't like to see others do it.

civil poster - what were the demographics of the dad and the mom who mentioned spanking?

THUNDERDOME thread alert

the story with the dad, substitute yelling at her, and it's not a whole lot different. It can even be damaging in a context in which a spanking would not be; it all depends.

Like I said, I'll discuss it if it comes up, but it doesn't come up that often. It might depend on your circle of friends, too. We know a lot of people who do spank, and are fine mentioning it.

Civil discussion poster here again. I also wonder and this is completely sincere, do spankers discuss spanking publicly. Because I get the impression from living in DC and being on DCUM (though not that often) that it's just basically known that it is really disapproved of (even if most people secretly admit to doing it once or more than once). I grew up in a neighborhood where EVERYONE spanked - not one kid I know was not spanked, and most of us lived in fear of it. Nobody had super abusive parents, but it was not a good thing or a positive thing and it didn't have all good outcomes. Kids just learned to hide their crimes, or redirect them, it was about being afraid and "minding," rather than about learning a lesson. I do think my kids are learning a lot about life through discussions, but i will admit that sometimes i would not mind them simply "minding" more. But my gut will not let me spank. Anyway back to my question, i have only had two real life people mention spanking to me. what was curious was they were both extremely blase about it as if everyone spanked. One said her daughter sassed her and she got a good spanking that morning. The other was telling me a story about his daughter acting up at bedtime and kind of mentioned it in passing saying so I went in and gave her a spanking and after she was crying and said she just wanted some time with me and i felt so bad for spanking her. I felt like when i heard about that, but although that makes him sound awful he is a pretty loving and involved dad and I get the impression that this is just how he knows how to parent, and it's not even apparent to him that people would disapprove of spanking. So i wonder if there is this whole culture of folks who do spank openly and it's just not known to the rest of us? Or if they only admit to fellow spankers?

Anonymous wrote:If those of you who spank are totally ok with it - do you let your friends know that you spank?

For example, when my child does something wrong and I have to put her in a time out, or remove her from playdate or party, the discipline is handled in public.

For the spankers, do you do it in public?

If not...why?

No, I don't spank my child in public. I also don't agree with putting a child in time out in public (it is both silly and needlessly humiliating). A stern talking to, a reminder of the rules of behavior and the consequences of misbehavior, or leaving. That's all I tihnk is appropriate for a young or older child in public.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's have an honest discussion. I think spanking is wrong. I think it can damage kids and cause distrust. More broadly, i believe (and i think some studies have shown) that demonstrating the resolution of problems, or enforcement of boundaries / one's wishes greatly contributes to a world where our impulses are to shove, punch, bully, murder, execute, and nuke one another into submission. At the same time, I can't even with these people who say EVERY child will respond well to positive reinforcement only and that anyone whose child doesn't respond isn't doing it right. i know spanking is wrong, and yet i don't have a foolproof substitute!

Why would it damage kids and cause distrust any more than any other punishment? I'm up for a civil discussion. My assessment is that it all depends on how it's explained and implemented.

Yay for civility!

I don't think that every spanking causes lasting, irreversable, major damage to children but i'd be willing to bet that the way most people are doing it does some damage, the way most people are doing it and the way they THINK they are doing it is probably a good deal different, and also that even the most benign instance is still carrying the capability to cause some damage. Why? Well, there are probably numerous studies that lay out why it does damage, but to me the duty of a parent to protect child from harm, and the need for the child to 100 percent feel physically safe with the parent is sacrosanct. Every time you spank, you're eroding that trust just a little bit, even temporarily. While there are certainly lots of ways to undo trust that do not involve parents striking and intentionally inflicting physical pain on the child, I don't think these are okay, either. I think there is probably a continuum where on one end you get the parent fluttering around trying to lovingly redirect where there is minimal harm done in the immediate sense (but depending on the circumstance if the kid isn't really getting any discipline and boundaries some lifelong consequences there too) to severe emotional abuse or physical abuse being on the other side of the continuum. I'm talking about child abuse there. Spanking, to me, has more in common with the abuse because at the end of the day, no matter how well intentioned, it is the trusted parent figure that is intentionally causing physical pain, there is a great risk of a breach opening up.

Even the Japanese admit that amae is problematic.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's have an honest discussion. I think spanking is wrong. I think it can damage kids and cause distrust. More broadly, i believe (and i think some studies have shown) that demonstrating the resolution of problems, or enforcement of boundaries / one's wishes greatly contributes to a world where our impulses are to shove, punch, bully, murder, execute, and nuke one another into submission. At the same time, I can't even with these people who say EVERY child will respond well to positive reinforcement only and that anyone whose child doesn't respond isn't doing it right. i know spanking is wrong, and yet i don't have a foolproof substitute!

Why would it damage kids and cause distrust any more than any other punishment? I'm up for a civil discussion. My assessment is that it all depends on how it's explained and implemented.

Yay for civility!

I don't think that every spanking causes lasting, irreversable, major damage to children but i'd be willing to bet that the way most people are doing it does some damage, the way most people are doing it and the way they THINK they are doing it is probably a good deal different, and also that even the most benign instance is still carrying the capability to cause some damage. Why? Well, there are probably numerous studies that lay out why it does damage, but to me the duty of a parent to protect child from harm, and the need for the child to 100 percent feel physically safe with the parent is sacrosanct. Every time you spank, you're eroding that trust just a little bit, even temporarily. While there are certainly lots of ways to undo trust that do not involve parents striking and intentionally inflicting physical pain on the child, I don't think these are okay, either. I think there is probably a continuum where on one end you get the parent fluttering around trying to lovingly redirect where there is minimal harm done in the immediate sense (but depending on the circumstance if the kid isn't really getting any discipline and boundaries some lifelong consequences there too) to severe emotional abuse or physical abuse being on the other side of the continuum. I'm talking about child abuse there. Spanking, to me, has more in common with the abuse because at the end of the day, no matter how well intentioned, it is the trusted parent figure that is intentionally causing physical pain, there is a great risk of a breach opening up.

But why is moderate and controlled physical pain somehow more detrimental than the emotional pain that you cause by any other punishment, such as putting a child in timeout (which can be physical in itself) and denying the opportunity for interaction with others?

Anonymous wrote:I've got 4 kids - oldest is 24. In general, I don't know of any of my kids friends who get spanked.

I think it's more common in the South, and among less educated people since so many studies have come out in the last decade or so saying that it doesn't work as a discipline technique (otherwise you'd only ever do it once).

I've never spanked. I've grabbed arms, and I've clenched my own fists to keep from hitting because I know I have a temper.

That explains some of it for me. My kids are older. Oldest is 25 and I know he was spanked and so were a number of his friends. IIRC the no spanking was just starting..? We aren't from the South or "less educated." I'm not sure the younger one ever was. Two totally different kids. We rarely had to discipline the younger one. He would send himself to his room, lol.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's have an honest discussion. I think spanking is wrong. I think it can damage kids and cause distrust. More broadly, i believe (and i think some studies have shown) that demonstrating the resolution of problems, or enforcement of boundaries / one's wishes greatly contributes to a world where our impulses are to shove, punch, bully, murder, execute, and nuke one another into submission. At the same time, I can't even with these people who say EVERY child will respond well to positive reinforcement only and that anyone whose child doesn't respond isn't doing it right. i know spanking is wrong, and yet i don't have a foolproof substitute!

Why would it damage kids and cause distrust any more than any other punishment? I'm up for a civil discussion. My assessment is that it all depends on how it's explained and implemented.

+1
My kid thinks I'm mean when I punish him by taking away his electronic time. I think he'd rather I just spank him than take away his electronic time. He's 11. I don't think he remembers being spanked when he was 5, but he does probably remember when I spanked him when he was 8.

What did he do in those cases to get a spanking, and are you in the same camp as the previous poster in terms of how you do it?

He was very disrespectful to me when I asked him to do something. He was given warnings about this previously. I turned him around where he stood and gave him a quick whack on the backside fully clothed. Now, when he starts to speak disrespectfully to me, I just give him a look, and he knows better because he knows he'll get electronic time taken away. That's the atomic bomb for him. When he was 5, he didn't have much electronic time, and he certainly didn't cherish it like he does now.

So he's scared you will hit him. He's frightened of you.

I'm not someone who's spanked in the past, but I think that kids ought to be a little bit afraid of the consequences of speaking so disrespectfully to their parents. That's a feature, not a bug, of any good discipline plan.

Anonymous wrote:If those of you who spank are totally ok with it - do you let your friends know that you spank?

For example, when my child does something wrong and I have to put her in a time out, or remove her from playdate or party, the discipline is handled in public.

For the spankers, do you do it in public?

If not...why?

If it comes up in conversation about kids, I have no problem mentioning it. I don't issue a press release.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's have an honest discussion. I think spanking is wrong. I think it can damage kids and cause distrust. More broadly, i believe (and i think some studies have shown) that demonstrating the resolution of problems, or enforcement of boundaries / one's wishes greatly contributes to a world where our impulses are to shove, punch, bully, murder, execute, and nuke one another into submission. At the same time, I can't even with these people who say EVERY child will respond well to positive reinforcement only and that anyone whose child doesn't respond isn't doing it right. i know spanking is wrong, and yet i don't have a foolproof substitute!

Why would it damage kids and cause distrust any more than any other punishment? I'm up for a civil discussion. My assessment is that it all depends on how it's explained and implemented.

Yay for civility!

I don't think that every spanking causes lasting, irreversable, major damage to children but i'd be willing to bet that the way most people are doing it does some damage, the way most people are doing it and the way they THINK they are doing it is probably a good deal different, and also that even the most benign instance is still carrying the capability to cause some damage. Why? Well, there are probably numerous studies that lay out why it does damage, but to me the duty of a parent to protect child from harm, and the need for the child to 100 percent feel physically safe with the parent is sacrosanct. Every time you spank, you're eroding that trust just a little bit, even temporarily. While there are certainly lots of ways to undo trust that do not involve parents striking and intentionally inflicting physical pain on the child, I don't think these are okay, either. I think there is probably a continuum where on one end you get the parent fluttering around trying to lovingly redirect where there is minimal harm done in the immediate sense (but depending on the circumstance if the kid isn't really getting any discipline and boundaries some lifelong consequences there too) to severe emotional abuse or physical abuse being on the other side of the continuum. I'm talking about child abuse there. Spanking, to me, has more in common with the abuse because at the end of the day, no matter how well intentioned, it is the trusted parent figure that is intentionally causing physical pain, there is a great risk of a breach opening up.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's have an honest discussion. I think spanking is wrong. I think it can damage kids and cause distrust. More broadly, i believe (and i think some studies have shown) that demonstrating the resolution of problems, or enforcement of boundaries / one's wishes greatly contributes to a world where our impulses are to shove, punch, bully, murder, execute, and nuke one another into submission. At the same time, I can't even with these people who say EVERY child will respond well to positive reinforcement only and that anyone whose child doesn't respond isn't doing it right. i know spanking is wrong, and yet i don't have a foolproof substitute!

Why would it damage kids and cause distrust any more than any other punishment? I'm up for a civil discussion. My assessment is that it all depends on how it's explained and implemented.

+1
My kid thinks I'm mean when I punish him by taking away his electronic time. I think he'd rather I just spank him than take away his electronic time. He's 11. I don't think he remembers being spanked when he was 5, but he does probably remember when I spanked him when he was 8.

What did he do in those cases to get a spanking, and are you in the same camp as the previous poster in terms of how you do it?

He was very disrespectful to me when I asked him to do something. He was given warnings about this previously. I turned him around where he stood and gave him a quick whack on the backside fully clothed. Now, when he starts to speak disrespectfully to me, I just give him a look, and he knows better because he knows he'll get electronic time taken away. That's the atomic bomb for him. When he was 5, he didn't have much electronic time, and he certainly didn't cherish it like he does now.

So he's scared you will hit him. He's frightened of you.