Anonymous
Post 04/27/2016 15:43     Subject: Re:Application Middle School
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:This is OP. I don't understand the argument that there aren't enough kids to fill an application MS. If there are a number of application HS and those seemed to be filled, why couldn't an application MS also fill up? Also, the argument that there aren't enough kids in Wards 7, 8, or 5 seems irrelevant. If it's an application MS that is city-wide, the kids would should come from all wards. That isn't stopping the application HS. Are there stats on where the kids are coming from in SWW, Banneker, etc? I can't believe that there are no kids from Wards 7, 8, or 5 going to application HSs.


PP suggested it should serve Wards 5, 7 & 8 and Ward 6 should pound sand, even though the only proposal to date is located in Ward 7 and just happens to be reasonably accessible to both Ward 6 and the rest of the city via public transit. If this hypothetical school mainly served Wards 5/7/8 it would struggle to have enough advanced students from the DCPS pool. It would have to draw on families enrolled in charters and again -- why would the modest number of advanced students from Wards 5, 7, 8 leave successful charters for DCPS MS when they can continue in the successful charter and opt for application HS if desired?

Yes, it should be citywide, but it wouldn't make much sense to park it next to Deal or within its boundary. It would also need to be located in a surplus building, thus Winston as a candidate. PP suggests it should be located as far from Ward 6 as possible because Stuart Hobson was modernized.


Why not Shaw MS or Center City MS or whatever it's called. It's a surplus building, and it's quite literally in the middle of the city, perfect for a city-wide school, and near several metro stops (Howard/Shaw, U Street) and bus lines. Why put it in the corner reaches of DC, whether in Ward 8 or Ward 4 when you have something that's smack in the middle.


As a Ward 6 parent I wouldn't object to it, but it somewhat defeats the purpose of making it accessible EOTR to park it in NW. PP suggested Ward 6 shouldn't benefit from proximity to EOTR which is nonsense. Wherever it would be located the school would depend on recruiting beyond 5/7/8
Anonymous
Post 04/27/2016 10:51     Subject: Re:Application Middle School
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:This is OP. I don't understand the argument that there aren't enough kids to fill an application MS. If there are a number of application HS and those seemed to be filled, why couldn't an application MS also fill up? Also, the argument that there aren't enough kids in Wards 7, 8, or 5 seems irrelevant. If it's an application MS that is city-wide, the kids would should come from all wards. That isn't stopping the application HS. Are there stats on where the kids are coming from in SWW, Banneker, etc? I can't believe that there are no kids from Wards 7, 8, or 5 going to application HSs.


PP suggested it should serve Wards 5, 7 & 8 and Ward 6 should pound sand, even though the only proposal to date is located in Ward 7 and just happens to be reasonably accessible to both Ward 6 and the rest of the city via public transit. If this hypothetical school mainly served Wards 5/7/8 it would struggle to have enough advanced students from the DCPS pool. It would have to draw on families enrolled in charters and again -- why would the modest number of advanced students from Wards 5, 7, 8 leave successful charters for DCPS MS when they can continue in the successful charter and opt for application HS if desired?

Yes, it should be citywide, but it wouldn't make much sense to park it next to Deal or within its boundary. It would also need to be located in a surplus building, thus Winston as a candidate. PP suggests it should be located as far from Ward 6 as possible because Stuart Hobson was modernized.


Why not Shaw MS or Center City MS or whatever it's called. It's a surplus building, and it's quite literally in the middle of the city, perfect for a city-wide school, and near several metro stops (Howard/Shaw, U Street) and bus lines. Why put it in the corner reaches of DC, whether in Ward 8 or Ward 4 when you have something that's smack in the middle.
Anonymous
Post 04/27/2016 10:45     Subject: Application Middle School
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Starting an application middle school looks a lot like tracking, which is legally suspect.

This is why DCPS doesn't want to do it before 9th grade:

http://usedulaw.com/333-hobson-v-hansen.html


This lawsuit is about tracking using testing, the issue here is an application MS (no testing). Not a good comparison. And it still doesn't answer the question, why is an application HS OK but not an application MS. Why is it acceptable to do at 9th grade and beyond but not 6th, 7th, and 8th? Still no explanation.


All the DC application high schools - OP's model - use tests as part of the admission criteria (either DC CAS or a special one, like SWW).

What criteria would you establish for your application MS? How would you choose who gets to attend or not?

The problem with introducing tracking early is that they erect barriers that students can never get around. The student who get in a track at 6th are going to always be ahead of others who don't. Foreclosing options when a student is only halfway through his/her school career is the issue.


So the flip side of that is that there can be no opportunities for those who are advanced. It is maddening-parents want their child to be met where there are and challenged to grow, DCPS wants the achievemnt gap to be eliminated- unfortunately those 2 ideals are mutually exclusive.
Anonymous
Post 04/27/2016 10:44     Subject: Re:Application Middle School
Anonymous wrote:This is OP. I don't understand the argument that there aren't enough kids to fill an application MS. If there are a number of application HS and those seemed to be filled, why couldn't an application MS also fill up? Also, the argument that there aren't enough kids in Wards 7, 8, or 5 seems irrelevant. If it's an application MS that is city-wide, the kids would should come from all wards. That isn't stopping the application HS. Are there stats on where the kids are coming from in SWW, Banneker, etc? I can't believe that there are no kids from Wards 7, 8, or 5 going to application HSs.


PP suggested it should serve Wards 5, 7 & 8 and Ward 6 should pound sand, even though the only proposal to date is located in Ward 7 and just happens to be reasonably accessible to both Ward 6 and the rest of the city via public transit. If this hypothetical school mainly served Wards 5/7/8 it would struggle to have enough advanced students from the DCPS pool. It would have to draw on families enrolled in charters and again -- why would the modest number of advanced students from Wards 5, 7, 8 leave successful charters for DCPS MS when they can continue in the successful charter and opt for application HS if desired?

Yes, it should be citywide, but it wouldn't make much sense to park it next to Deal or within its boundary. It would also need to be located in a surplus building, thus Winston as a candidate. PP suggests it should be located as far from Ward 6 as possible because Stuart Hobson was modernized.
Anonymous
Post 04/27/2016 10:35     Subject: Application Middle School
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Starting an application middle school looks a lot like tracking, which is legally suspect.

This is why DCPS doesn't want to do it before 9th grade:

http://usedulaw.com/333-hobson-v-hansen.html


This lawsuit is about tracking using testing, the issue here is an application MS (no testing). Not a good comparison. And it still doesn't answer the question, why is an application HS OK but not an application MS. Why is it acceptable to do at 9th grade and beyond but not 6th, 7th, and 8th? Still no explanation.


All the DC application high schools - OP's model - use tests as part of the admission criteria (either DC CAS or a special one, like SWW).

What criteria would you establish for your application MS? How would you choose who gets to attend or not?

The problem with introducing tracking early is that they erect barriers that students can never get around. The student who get in a track at 6th are going to always be ahead of others who don't. Foreclosing options when a student is only halfway through his/her school career is the issue.
Anonymous
Post 04/27/2016 10:11     Subject: Application Middle School
Anonymous wrote:Starting an application middle school looks a lot like tracking, which is legally suspect.

This is why DCPS doesn't want to do it before 9th grade:

http://usedulaw.com/333-hobson-v-hansen.html


This lawsuit is about tracking using testing, the issue here is an application MS (no testing). Not a good comparison. And it still doesn't answer the question, why is an application HS OK but not an application MS. Why is it acceptable to do at 9th grade and beyond but not 6th, 7th, and 8th? Still no explanation.
Anonymous
Post 04/27/2016 10:05     Subject: Re:Application Middle School
Anonymous wrote:This is OP. I don't understand the argument that there aren't enough kids to fill an application MS. If there are a number of application HS and those seemed to be filled, why couldn't an application MS also fill up? Also, the argument that there aren't enough kids in Wards 7, 8, or 5 seems irrelevant. If it's an application MS that is city-wide, the kids would should come from all wards. That isn't stopping the application HS. Are there stats on where the kids are coming from in SWW, Banneker, etc? I can't believe that there are no kids from Wards 7, 8, or 5 going to application HSs.


Interestingly, myschool DC seems to show multiple open spots at Banneker, McKinley Tech, and Ellington. So there is either a shortage of kids applying to those schools or a shortage of kids who meet the enrollment criteria.
Anonymous
Post 04/27/2016 10:04     Subject: Application Middle School
Starting an application middle school looks a lot like tracking, which is legally suspect.

This is why DCPS doesn't want to do it before 9th grade:

http://usedulaw.com/333-hobson-v-hansen.html
Anonymous
Post 04/27/2016 09:12     Subject: Application Middle School
Anonymous wrote:The point isn't that there aren't kids in application high schools from across the city - there are - and the application process is designed so that there will always be some discretion, and some would argue that discretion ensures a student body that reflects the city's geographic, racial and economic diversity.

But many here have argued for a test-in (not an application) middle school that admits students based on test scores and advanced academic skills. Application and test-in are not synonymous.

Re location -- it is one thing to send a 9th grader across the city alone on transit. Many are more reluctant to do that with a 6th grader.


This is OP, I'm asking for an application MS as the thread title shows. If it can be done for HS, and they seem to be doing well. Why can't it be done for MS. So far throughout this thread, no one has provided a good reason why this can't be replicated at the MS level. The only reason I see is that there is no political will, but why?
Anonymous
Post 04/27/2016 08:04     Subject: Application Middle School
The point isn't that there aren't kids in application high schools from across the city - there are - and the application process is designed so that there will always be some discretion, and some would argue that discretion ensures a student body that reflects the city's geographic, racial and economic diversity.

But many here have argued for a test-in (not an application) middle school that admits students based on test scores and advanced academic skills. Application and test-in are not synonymous.

Re location -- it is one thing to send a 9th grader across the city alone on transit. Many are more reluctant to do that with a 6th grader.
Anonymous
Post 04/27/2016 07:38     Subject: Re:Application Middle School
This is OP. I don't understand the argument that there aren't enough kids to fill an application MS. If there are a number of application HS and those seemed to be filled, why couldn't an application MS also fill up? Also, the argument that there aren't enough kids in Wards 7, 8, or 5 seems irrelevant. If it's an application MS that is city-wide, the kids would should come from all wards. That isn't stopping the application HS. Are there stats on where the kids are coming from in SWW, Banneker, etc? I can't believe that there are no kids from Wards 7, 8, or 5 going to application HSs.
Anonymous
Post 04/26/2016 20:06     Subject: Application Middle School
Anonymous wrote:



Btw there is no such thing as reverse racism. It's just racism, regardless of target.

DCPS is one lawsuit away from being blown up -- SWW anyone?


What does that mean?


It was in reference to the post above it, reposted here.

Exactly, PP. Thanks a lot for this clear-headed post. It's the reverse racism that's "gross." Urban school systems must decide if their overriding goal is to serve truly gifted kids or to promote affirmative action. Trying to do both in equal measure invariably leads to parent-initiated lawsuits and the eventual dismantling of affirmative action-based admissions regimes. This happened at Boston Latin in the mid 1990s and with NYC's famous magnet schools in the early 2000s. Until DC has moved beyond the current hopelessly political correct school system development trajectory, a firmly merit-based admission system at an accelerated middle school is pie in the sky. We would need a new mayor, mostly new faces on the city council, and around ten years to have a shot, far too late for our own children.


The not-at-all-transparent application process and the subjective nature of the interviews makes SWW very suspicious. A lawsuit would shine a lot of sunshine on the process. I don't think the current systems used by DCPS would hold up better than the systems did in Boston or NYC.

Anonymous
Post 04/26/2016 15:40     Subject: Application Middle School
How can you say that DC children are getting a 'good education?' That certainly isn't the case in my neighborhood.
Anonymous
Post 04/26/2016 15:30     Subject: Application Middle School
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Things like this should be in Wards 7,8,4 and/or 5 - which are underserved by DCPS to a far greater degree than Ward 6 - and proximity to transit should be a criteria for any city-wide option.



Which is why Winston is a good location for it--east of the river, half a mile from the metro, and on the 36 bus route.


Let's face it -- there aren't enough advanced DCPS students in Wards 5, 7, 8 to not be dependent on Ward 6 and beyond. Only 1/4 Ward 5, 7 & 8 DCPS MS students are proficient in ELA and half that for math. A statistically insignificant number are advanced in either and can be counted on a single hand.




Higher SES families in Wards 5 & 4 are like those in Ward 6 - go charter, go private or move.


That's what we did. But there's no reason trying to discuss that matter with Ward 6 parents, for they believe themselves to be special


oh please. First of all, Wards 4 and 5 are hardly interchangeable. Affluent Ward 4 = Chevy Chase and even less affluent areas to the east get a Deal feed. Last I checked Brookland has a brand new state of the art MS. The Hill has more established elementary schools across the board than Ward 5 and has historically higher levels of parent engagement. For some reason anyone NOT on the Hill thinks it deserves to get totally dumped on. There's a structural divide which prevents any MS from succeeding as a neighborhood school, even one gifted with a full modernization like Stuart Hobson.

The charter/private/move mantra is weak -- sounds like defeat conceded by families who haven't tried or been able to establish strong neighborhood schools at any level.



You are proving the PP's point. Why deal with the strife in DCPS just to get subpar schools? Spend the energy elsewhere and just make sure your children get a good education. Life is too short to be Sisyphus.


that's exactly the point -- it's not subpar schools and our children are getting a good education in their neighborhood schools until middle school where DCPS mostly throws up its hands. It's not an intractable situation despite a leadership void marked by lack of vision.
Anonymous
Post 04/26/2016 15:12     Subject: Application Middle School
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Things like this should be in Wards 7,8,4 and/or 5 - which are underserved by DCPS to a far greater degree than Ward 6 - and proximity to transit should be a criteria for any city-wide option.



Which is why Winston is a good location for it--east of the river, half a mile from the metro, and on the 36 bus route.


Let's face it -- there aren't enough advanced DCPS students in Wards 5, 7, 8 to not be dependent on Ward 6 and beyond. Only 1/4 Ward 5, 7 & 8 DCPS MS students are proficient in ELA and half that for math. A statistically insignificant number are advanced in either and can be counted on a single hand.




Higher SES families in Wards 5 & 4 are like those in Ward 6 - go charter, go private or move.


That's what we did. But there's no reason trying to discuss that matter with Ward 6 parents, for they believe themselves to be special


oh please. First of all, Wards 4 and 5 are hardly interchangeable. Affluent Ward 4 = Chevy Chase and even less affluent areas to the east get a Deal feed. Last I checked Brookland has a brand new state of the art MS. The Hill has more established elementary schools across the board than Ward 5 and has historically higher levels of parent engagement. For some reason anyone NOT on the Hill thinks it deserves to get totally dumped on. There's a structural divide which prevents any MS from succeeding as a neighborhood school, even one gifted with a full modernization like Stuart Hobson.

The charter/private/move mantra is weak -- sounds like defeat conceded by families who haven't tried or been able to establish strong neighborhood schools at any level.



You are proving the PP's point. Why deal with the strife in DCPS just to get subpar schools? Spend the energy elsewhere and just make sure your children get a good education. Life is too short to be Sisyphus.