Anonymous wrote:OP, you are not a feminist. You can be an ally, but you are not female, and therefore cannot be a feminist.

However, a feminist ally would never speak the way you do. Never, ever ever and your flimsy attempts to couch your obvious misogyny behind feminism is a combination of amusing and just gross.

Only women can be feminist? Wtf? Do you know what feminist means?

Should men care about giving red flags (e.g. cheap ring) to women then?

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:OP sounds very very cheap. This is just a way of making excuses to not buy something expensive. Being cheap is really a red flag for other issues. If I was the girlfriend, I would not marry someone with this line of thinking. It's a preview of bigger issues to come.

Women can say that being cheap is a red flag for other issues, but really it's not. If you want another person to give you stuff, own it. If it were truly "a red flag for other issues," you'd see the concern about cheapness running both ways between the sexes in approximately equal measure. But you don't. Men don't expect much in the way of material things from women, and when women don't provide those material things, it's not "a red flag for other issues."

"men don't expect much in the way of material things from women."

This may be true in the sense that men don't expect expensive tangible gifts. BUT, over the course of a relationship, especially a lifelong one, generally, men expect a LOT of unpaid labor from women and, frequently, that women make choices that give up their own earning power in favor of their husband's or child's welfare. This IS actually a MATERIAL gift to men. Men just don't perceive it that way because they perceive a woman's time and energy as having no or less value than their own, male, time and energy. Frankly, it's a material gift that adds up to a hell of lot more value than an engagement ring.

Perhaps OP is the rare true feminist that his so completely aware of himself that he never makes these kinds of material demands on the women in his life, but IME, most men do this, and many of them don't ever realize they're doing it.

Assuming for the sake of argument that you're right -- what's a red flag for this expectation of labor that's equivalent to the red flag women see with respect to material support when a man won't fork out a bunch of money on a ring?

I don't think the red flags you're asking about are equivalent situations.

Anyway if I had an answer to "what is the red flag that signals that a man is going to expect unpaid labor from the woman, " none of those guys would ever be able to get married because no woman would voluntarily sign up for that deal when laid out in explicit terms in advance. ( Love you honey, but I expect in return for you to do for more unpaid and unvalued labor and support than I will do for you.).

I could become a very rich relationship speaker with a book and Oprah-like show if I could help women spot and stay away from these guys.

Of course, that would mean staying away from a very high percentage of men since basically our whole culture and governing structure reinforces these expectations as norms.

I think PP was asking what is the red flag that men should look for that indicates that a woman will not, in fact, provide all this free labor that you mentioned before that women provide in a marriage.

We dont care about giving red flags to men... at all.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP sounds very very cheap. This is just a way of making excuses to not buy something expensive. Being cheap is really a red flag for other issues. If I was the girlfriend, I would not marry someone with this line of thinking. It's a preview of bigger issues to come.

Women can say that being cheap is a red flag for other issues, but really it's not. If you want another person to give you stuff, own it. If it were truly "a red flag for other issues," you'd see the concern about cheapness running both ways between the sexes in approximately equal measure. But you don't. Men don't expect much in the way of material things from women, and when women don't provide those material things, it's not "a red flag for other issues."

"men don't expect much in the way of material things from women."

This may be true in the sense that men don't expect expensive tangible gifts. BUT, over the course of a relationship, especially a lifelong one, generally, men expect a LOT of unpaid labor from women and, frequently, that women make choices that give up their own earning power in favor of their husband's or child's welfare. This IS actually a MATERIAL gift to men. Men just don't perceive it that way because they perceive a woman's time and energy as having no or less value than their own, male, time and energy. Frankly, it's a material gift that adds up to a hell of lot more value than an engagement ring.

Perhaps OP is the rare true feminist that his so completely aware of himself that he never makes these kinds of material demands on the women in his life, but IME, most men do this, and many of them don't ever realize they're doing it.

Assuming for the sake of argument that you're right -- what's a red flag for this expectation of labor that's equivalent to the red flag women see with respect to material support when a man won't fork out a bunch of money on a ring?

I don't think the red flags you're asking about are equivalent situations.

Anyway if I had an answer to "what is the red flag that signals that a man is going to expect unpaid labor from the woman, " none of those guys would ever be able to get married because no woman would voluntarily sign up for that deal when laid out in explicit terms in advance. ( Love you honey, but I expect in return for you to do for more unpaid and unvalued labor and support than I will do for you.).

I could become a very rich relationship speaker with a book and Oprah-like show if I could help women spot and stay away from these guys.

Of course, that would mean staying away from a very high percentage of men since basically our whole culture and governing structure reinforces these expectations as norms.

I think PP was asking what is the red flag that men should look for that indicates that a woman will not, in fact, provide all this free labor that you mentioned before that women provide in a marriage.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP sounds very very cheap. This is just a way of making excuses to not buy something expensive. Being cheap is really a red flag for other issues. If I was the girlfriend, I would not marry someone with this line of thinking. It's a preview of bigger issues to come.

Women can say that being cheap is a red flag for other issues, but really it's not. If you want another person to give you stuff, own it. If it were truly "a red flag for other issues," you'd see the concern about cheapness running both ways between the sexes in approximately equal measure. But you don't. Men don't expect much in the way of material things from women, and when women don't provide those material things, it's not "a red flag for other issues."

"men don't expect much in the way of material things from women."

This may be true in the sense that men don't expect expensive tangible gifts. BUT, over the course of a relationship, especially a lifelong one, generally, men expect a LOT of unpaid labor from women and, frequently, that women make choices that give up their own earning power in favor of their husband's or child's welfare. This IS actually a MATERIAL gift to men. Men just don't perceive it that way because they perceive a woman's time and energy as having no or less value than their own, male, time and energy. Frankly, it's a material gift that adds up to a hell of lot more value than an engagement ring.

Perhaps OP is the rare true feminist that his so completely aware of himself that he never makes these kinds of material demands on the women in his life, but IME, most men do this, and many of them don't ever realize they're doing it.

Assuming for the sake of argument that you're right -- what's a red flag for this expectation of labor that's equivalent to the red flag women see with respect to material support when a man won't fork out a bunch of money on a ring?

I don't think the red flags you're asking about are equivalent situations.

Anyway if I had an answer to "what is the red flag that signals that a man is going to expect unpaid labor from the woman, " none of those guys would ever be able to get married because no woman would voluntarily sign up for that deal when laid out in explicit terms in advance. ( Love you honey, but I expect in return for you to do for more unpaid and unvalued labor and support than I will do for you.).

I could become a very rich relationship speaker with a book and Oprah-like show if I could help women spot and stay away from these guys.

Of course, that would mean staying away from a very high percentage of men since basically our whole culture and governing structure reinforces these expectations as norms.

Wow, I love everything about this comment.

Girl, you and me should team up. Cause seriously, the amount of bullshit women put up with from men boggles the mind. And most of the time it makes them completely miserable.

This would all be avoided if we didn't live in a culture that actively encouraged men to act like shits and women to put up with and, indeed, romanticize it.

Andrea Dworkin once said something to the effect of "Men are shits and they revel in it." So true.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP sounds very very cheap. This is just a way of making excuses to not buy something expensive. Being cheap is really a red flag for other issues. If I was the girlfriend, I would not marry someone with this line of thinking. It's a preview of bigger issues to come.

Women can say that being cheap is a red flag for other issues, but really it's not. If you want another person to give you stuff, own it. If it were truly "a red flag for other issues," you'd see the concern about cheapness running both ways between the sexes in approximately equal measure. But you don't. Men don't expect much in the way of material things from women, and when women don't provide those material things, it's not "a red flag for other issues."

"men don't expect much in the way of material things from women."

This may be true in the sense that men don't expect expensive tangible gifts. BUT, over the course of a relationship, especially a lifelong one, generally, men expect a LOT of unpaid labor from women and, frequently, that women make choices that give up their own earning power in favor of their husband's or child's welfare. This IS actually a MATERIAL gift to men. Men just don't perceive it that way because they perceive a woman's time and energy as having no or less value than their own, male, time and energy. Frankly, it's a material gift that adds up to a hell of lot more value than an engagement ring.

Perhaps OP is the rare true feminist that his so completely aware of himself that he never makes these kinds of material demands on the women in his life, but IME, most men do this, and many of them don't ever realize they're doing it.

Assuming for the sake of argument that you're right -- what's a red flag for this expectation of labor that's equivalent to the red flag women see with respect to material support when a man won't fork out a bunch of money on a ring?

I don't think the red flags you're asking about are equivalent situations.

Anyway if I had an answer to "what is the red flag that signals that a man is going to expect unpaid labor from the woman, " none of those guys would ever be able to get married because no woman would voluntarily sign up for that deal when laid out in explicit terms in advance. ( Love you honey, but I expect in return for you to do for more unpaid and unvalued labor and support than I will do for you.).

I could become a very rich relationship speaker with a book and Oprah-like show if I could help women spot and stay away from these guys.

Of course, that would mean staying away from a very high percentage of men since basically our whole culture and governing structure reinforces these expectations as norms.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a feminist guy, this is a deal-breaker for me and I feel pity and mystification for my guy friends when I hear about them doing it -- some of them are shelling out literally thousands of dollars for a ring that their partner isn't paying for half of. For these guys it's like the sexual revolution never happened.

If your answer is 'yes, I totally would', is it because you don't consider yourself a feminist, or what?

Marraige is a sexist institution so any engagement ring, regardless of who pays, is sexist.

So women who have said this guy should man up and buy a ring are not feminists? Make sense. It is strange seeing people attack and bully the OP b/c he does not want to buy a ring.

As a DW who explicitly did not want an engagement ring (but is fine with DH buying me jewelry in general), trying to tie this question to feminism is about as dumb a thing as anyone can do. My argument against the ring is simply that I don't see why I should have to present myself as "taken" before my DH did. I know couples that did "promise rings" before getting married, and that makes sense to me...but DH didn't want to do that. But I didn't tell many people that, since they did want a ring and would find the implication offensive.

Buy your GF a ring if you want to propose, and she wants one. Actually, don't...you don't sound very compatible.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP sounds very very cheap. This is just a way of making excuses to not buy something expensive. Being cheap is really a red flag for other issues. If I was the girlfriend, I would not marry someone with this line of thinking. It's a preview of bigger issues to come.

Women can say that being cheap is a red flag for other issues, but really it's not. If you want another person to give you stuff, own it. If it were truly "a red flag for other issues," you'd see the concern about cheapness running both ways between the sexes in approximately equal measure. But you don't. Men don't expect much in the way of material things from women, and when women don't provide those material things, it's not "a red flag for other issues."

"men don't expect much in the way of material things from women."

This may be true in the sense that men don't expect expensive tangible gifts. BUT, over the course of a relationship, especially a lifelong one, generally, men expect a LOT of unpaid labor from women and, frequently, that women make choices that give up their own earning power in favor of their husband's or child's welfare. This IS actually a MATERIAL gift to men. Men just don't perceive it that way because they perceive a woman's time and energy as having no or less value than their own, male, time and energy. Frankly, it's a material gift that adds up to a hell of lot more value than an engagement ring.

Perhaps OP is the rare true feminist that his so completely aware of himself that he never makes these kinds of material demands on the women in his life, but IME, most men do this, and many of them don't ever realize they're doing it.

Assuming for the sake of argument that you're right -- what's a red flag for this expectation of labor that's equivalent to the red flag women see with respect to material support when a man won't fork out a bunch of money on a ring?

My husband spent $10k on my ring and surely it was the best $10k investment he ever could have made.

Anonymous wrote:Lol feminism goes right out the window if the feminist thinks it means she won't be getting free jewelry any longer. A true feminist woman would insist on buying her own engagement ring And one for her man.

We all know that will never happen.

So for things to be "equal" (since that's your incredibly un-nuanced understanding of what feminism is), a woman would need to buy both rings? What's equal about that? I think it would be more equal for the partners to agree on what rings they want (if any), agree on a budget for those rings (again, if any), and then buy them. Period.

My feminist husband buys me jewelry fairly regularly. I buy him jewelry that I know he'll actually wear - thus far, that's only a really amazing watch (that matches the ring I bought him pretty well). If I thought he would wear other things, I would buy them for him. I wear earrings, necklace, bracelets and multiple rings every day, so he buys me those things. He has never, not even one time, bought me flowers. Not because he's not a feminist but because I don't care for them and he knows that because he asked me.

Which is what the OP should do with his girlfriend - ASK HER WHAT SHE WANTS and then FIGURE OUT HOW TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN TOGETHER. If the answer is "The ring is too expensive" but it's still important to her, then talk about saving for it together, prioritizing it over other things she enjoys, etc. If your girlfriend is not able to have those kinds of conversations and participate in those kinds of decisions, what the hell makes you think she's ready to marry you or participate in any of the bigger decisions involved in having a family together?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP sounds very very cheap. This is just a way of making excuses to not buy something expensive. Being cheap is really a red flag for other issues. If I was the girlfriend, I would not marry someone with this line of thinking. It's a preview of bigger issues to come.

Women can say that being cheap is a red flag for other issues, but really it's not. If you want another person to give you stuff, own it. If it were truly "a red flag for other issues," you'd see the concern about cheapness running both ways between the sexes in approximately equal measure. But you don't. Men don't expect much in the way of material things from women, and when women don't provide those material things, it's not "a red flag for other issues."

"men don't expect much in the way of material things from women."

This may be true in the sense that men don't expect expensive tangible gifts. BUT, over the course of a relationship, especially a lifelong one, generally, men expect a LOT of unpaid labor from women and, frequently, that women make choices that give up their own earning power in favor of their husband's or child's welfare. This IS actually a MATERIAL gift to men. Men just don't perceive it that way because they perceive a woman's time and energy as having no or less value than their own, male, time and energy. Frankly, it's a material gift that adds up to a hell of lot more value than an engagement ring.

Perhaps OP is the rare true feminist that his so completely aware of himself that he never makes these kinds of material demands on the women in his life, but IME, most men do this, and many of them don't ever realize they're doing it.

+1

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP sounds very very cheap. This is just a way of making excuses to not buy something expensive. Being cheap is really a red flag for other issues. If I was the girlfriend, I would not marry someone with this line of thinking. It's a preview of bigger issues to come.

Women can say that being cheap is a red flag for other issues, but really it's not. If you want another person to give you stuff, own it. If it were truly "a red flag for other issues," you'd see the concern about cheapness running both ways between the sexes in approximately equal measure. But you don't. Men don't expect much in the way of material things from women, and when women don't provide those material things, it's not "a red flag for other issues."

"men don't expect much in the way of material things from women."

This may be true in the sense that men don't expect expensive tangible gifts. BUT, over the course of a relationship, especially a lifelong one, generally, men expect a LOT of unpaid labor from women and, frequently, that women make choices that give up their own earning power in favor of their husband's or child's welfare. This IS actually a MATERIAL gift to men. Men just don't perceive it that way because they perceive a woman's time and energy as having no or less value than their own, male, time and energy. Frankly, it's a material gift that adds up to a hell of lot more value than an engagement ring.

Perhaps OP is the rare true feminist that his so completely aware of himself that he never makes these kinds of material demands on the women in his life, but IME, most men do this, and many of them don't ever realize they're doing it.

Very good point. Almost all the husbands of everyone I know, whether they be super conservative or super liberal, are like this. They expect their wives to do the majority of the labor at home, regardless if she has another job or not. Ideally it would be 50/50 across the board but generally it's not. Stats back this up.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you are not a feminist. You can be an ally, but you are not female, and therefore cannot be a feminist.

However, a feminist ally would never speak the way you do. Never, ever ever and your flimsy attempts to couch your obvious misogyny behind feminism is a combination of amusing and just gross.

Wrong. Men can be feminist.

I see OP's point. It's similar to whether men are expected to pay for all dates or not. And I'm personally not a fan of the expensive engagement ring or the idea that it's the man who asks the woman to marry him and then gives her this big honking gift if she says yes.

But OP, is this as far as your feminism takes you? Is this where you put your feminist energy? I'd hardly pick this as a starting point to focus on equaling things out.

Men paying for dates is not a feminist issue.

Feminists are concerned with the very serious issues that face women, not least of which is the wage gap. Making it so men don't have to open their wallets.... yeah, not exactly on the list.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP sounds very very cheap. This is just a way of making excuses to not buy something expensive. Being cheap is really a red flag for other issues. If I was the girlfriend, I would not marry someone with this line of thinking. It's a preview of bigger issues to come.

Women can say that being cheap is a red flag for other issues, but really it's not. If you want another person to give you stuff, own it. If it were truly "a red flag for other issues," you'd see the concern about cheapness running both ways between the sexes in approximately equal measure. But you don't. Men don't expect much in the way of material things from women, and when women don't provide those material things, it's not "a red flag for other issues."

"men don't expect much in the way of material things from women."

This may be true in the sense that men don't expect expensive tangible gifts. BUT, over the course of a relationship, especially a lifelong one, generally, men expect a LOT of unpaid labor from women and, frequently, that women make choices that give up their own earning power in favor of their husband's or child's welfare. This IS actually a MATERIAL gift to men. Men just don't perceive it that way because they perceive a woman's time and energy as having no or less value than their own, male, time and energy. Frankly, it's a material gift that adds up to a hell of lot more value than an engagement ring.

Perhaps OP is the rare true feminist that his so completely aware of himself that he never makes these kinds of material demands on the women in his life, but IME, most men do this, and many of them don't ever realize they're doing it.