Anonymous wrote:We have a ten year old terrier mutt that we have had since 8 weeks old. He was a great dog pre kids. When we had our first child (4 now) he got more annoying(think jumping on counters for food, more barking, etc). Now our 1 year old is mobile and very interested in the dog. He has never hurt the dog but even if he goes to pet dog the dog snaps and growls. I don't want to take any chances. Frankly, I no longer trust the dog at all. Is there a shelter that would take such a dog? Advice please!

Your child is now 1. You also have a 4 year old. Are you saying you have kept them apart for 4 years? Has this dog been growling at both your kids for 4 years and now you're at the point where it is just intolerable keeping 2 kids away from an ill-tempered terrier.

^^^ PP again. Your advice is probably the best for the OP with the baby, but re my own dog I am 100% sure that my approach was a good one. He definately is not scared of me, he's a totally relaxed, happy dog. Growling is definately nit the only way he has to tell me he wants something or doesn't want to do something. If he wants food that I'm eating, for example, he will just stare at it or bark or whine. If he doesn't want to take a bath, he'll lie on his back or and kind of paw at me, telling me "get lost." The only times he gets "arngry" are when he sees the vacuum or ironing board, which he'll bark like hell at. Anyhow, your right that dogs have all kinds of different personalities, but for me e the whole "Cesar Milan" thing worked like a charm (except for the hissing or whatever that is). I think there's a lot of sense in the need to teach the dog that it isn't the master, so that the dog doesn't stress out and think that it needs to control everything and protect the household.

Anonymous wrote:I was the PP that responded to the trainer. Yeah my sample size is pretty small so I can't say whether it would work for most dogs. In my old, though, it makes sense to teach the dog that it's unacceptable to get angry about whatever was making him growl in the first place. When my dog was a puppy and I had guests over, he would occasionally growl at them when they were sitting on a chair in the living room because he wanted to sit on the chair instead. Obviously I wasn't going to make my guests sit on the floor and let the little prince sit on their chair just so he wouldn't growl. He got the message pretty quickly that he needed to just chill out and accept that he'd need to hang out on the floor when the chairs/couch were taken. Maybe he is just easy going for a dog, I don't know. He's never bitten anyone intentionally since he was a tiny puppy and didn't know any better. We just screamed like hell when he did that (he was too small to do any damage of course) and he learned quickly. Nowadays every once and a while he'll accidentally get a bit of my finger when we are playing tug of war or whatever and if that happens he'll immediately jump back and put his head down to indicate "oh shit sorry didn't mean to do that." My guess though is that this sort of approach might only work if you do it starting when the dog is a puppy. My parents' old dog was much more neurotic and I doubt whether this approach would have been fruitful. But anyhow, my opinion is that you want to make it clear to the dog that he is not the boss and isn't aloud to growl and bark when he wants to get his way.

Trainer again:
http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/why-growl-good

So what would happen in this same scenario if the dog had been taught not to growl? Someone would get bitten. The dog would have learned NOT to give a warning. Then you end up with a dog you cannot predict which can be very dangerous. Who would be to blame for that bite? The person that took away that dogs method to communicate of course. A dog can only respond like a dog

http://ferndogtraining.com/why-growling-is-good/

Growling is a warning. Your dog is telling you that he’s not cool with something and that is a good thing. If you keep correcting your dog for growling but do nothing to discover and treat the reason for the growl, you could be in for big trouble. If you successfully correct the dog into not growling but he’s still uncomfortable you will have no way of knowing and can push him into a situation where he may feel the need to bite to let you know.

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/12_10/features/Training-For-Growling-Behavior_16163-1.html

Growling is a valuable means of communication for a dog—something that dog owners should appreciate and respect rather than punish. Of course, we don’t want our dog to growl at us, but neither do we want him to fail to growl if something makes him uncomfortable; that’s very important information in a successful canine-human relationship.

There are 50000 more articles like this. Google, "Why is growling good?" and find hundreds of trainers who will tell you not to punish growling.

In the story you tell, about the dog who growled when someone sat in what he perceived to be "his space", I would have removed the dog from the situation. I would suggest crating him in another room until your guests left and you could have trained him. Then I would have taught him an appropriate space. I would have given him a bed, and rewarded him every time he went to the bed. If he tried to get onto the chair, I would have picked him up and removed him from the spot. Pretty soon, dog will realize that his bed is far more valuable than the chair.

Dogs are animals (duh, but it's important, because we often think that they should behave like people). To a dog, its resources are its most valuable possessions. That's why dogs growl sometimes when you try to take away their food, or their spot, or their toy. You have to teach them that it's okay for you to take their things. I like to play the trade game with young dogs. I take your food dish away, and give you a treat. I take your low value toy away, and give you one with squeakers. You are conditioning the dog that it's okay for their things to be taken away, because better things happen when it does.

Your solution didn't actually teach the dog to relax and "chill out". When you yelled at the dog for growling about the chair, you taught him he shouldn't growl. That didn't take away the desire to have the chair. It just made him frustrated/scared. You are exceedingly fortunate that your dog's choice of reactions was to shut down. The dog is now afraid of you in these situations, and chooses to be exceedingly submissive to avoid being yelled at. He still would want that chair if he thought you weren't going to yell at him.

In extreme situations, dogs who are repeatedly punished down stress so much to the point that they freeze. They are afraid to make decisions, because they don't know what is going to punish them. These dogs look like "good" dogs, but really they are scared dogs. They don't know if coming towards you while you eat will result in a dropped morsel of food, or being yelled at, so they just don't move. Not moving is "safe"--they can't get in trouble for that. I have had so many clients come through who had shut down dogs, and it's just heart breaking. Ideally we train the dog to make good choices, not to make no choice.

Then there is the super extreme situation. The dog who decides that chair is so valuable to them, they need the person out of it. They know they can't growl to make their desires known. They know that you are oblivious to their non verbal signals like tense body, ears flicked back, tail set, eye position, so there's no point in doing that. The only way they can show you what they want is to use their teeth. Hopefully it's an air snap. Maybe it's a nip. Or maybe it's a full on bite.

The problem is, you don't know what kind of a dog you have until it's too late. Why then, would anyone gamble that it's going to go south? Showing the dog there are better options is 100% safe. Punishing them is not 100% safe.

Back to the baby:
Option 1: KEEP BABY AWAY FROM DOG 100% of the time.
Benefits: 100% safe. Dog is secure, baby is safe, requires little to no effort on anyone's part
Negatives: Dog often ends up alone a lot

Option 2: Train baby to ignore the dog. Redirect baby when it approaches the dog. Give dog a safe retreat zone. Reward dog when baby is in the same room.
Benefits: Everyone can peacefully coexist.
Negatives: Some effort on parents' part

Option 3: Punish the dog for growling.
Benefits: Dog stops growling
Negatives: Someone gets bitten or the dog is miserable. THIS IS NOT A REALISTIC OPTION.

Please please please choose option 1 or option 2.

My dog growled at my kids once - dogs was about 7 or 8 and one of the kids surprised him and grabbed his tail. He did that quick turn around thing and growled at bit.

I made immediately told him no and held him down on his side and stared in his eyes until he broke eye contact. Dog needed to realize that he was still at the bottom of the totem pole. Never had an issue again. He figured out a strategy to escape the kids and the kids had were taught to be gentle. We've never had an issue since.


A few sessions with a trainer will be very helpful. They will also be able to tell you if it's best to re-home the dog. You should at least try.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Professional dog trainer here.

SO much misinformation in this thread. Please please please read this:

Never, EVER punish growling. Growling is a good thing! It is the dog trying to tell you that it is uncomfortable with the situation, and you need to remove the child. It is the only way the dog really has to tell you that it doesn't like what is going on.

If you choose to punish the dog (by yelling at it, grabbing the scruff, etc) when it growls, it will absolutely stop growling--which is when things get really dangerous. You have taken away its ability to communicate. Next time, when the dog is scared/cornered, it will not growl because it knows it will get punished for doing so. It will resort to snapping out of desperation.

I would do the following:
1) Give your dog a safe place to retreat to. A room, a crate, a fenced off portion of the living room. Some place that your children are not allowed to go anywhere near. When dog is feeling overwhelmed, it can go to its safe spot.

2) Teach your children to ignore the dog 100% of the time, unless the dog approaches them for attention. My son has been redirected from the time he began to crawl. Any time he crawled towards the dog, he was turned around and we engaged him with other toys or games.

3) When the dog came over and nuzzled him for pets, we taught him to gently pat her back, never her face. He is now 18 months, and he never approaches the dog or touches her face.

4) Read up on dog body language. People always say, "The dog snapped! I had no idea it was coming! Totally unprovoked!" Any decent trainer will tell you otherwise. Dogs show a wide range of signals when they are stressed. Yawning, panting, "whale eyes", ear set, etc are all cues that the dog is overwhelmed and needs you to help it out of the situation. Learn these signs, for the sake of everyone in your household. I cringe when I watch these youtube videos of children crawling all over the family dog who supposedly "loves" it. The dog is ALWAYS showing signs of stress. The people just don't realize it, because the dog isn't growling or moving away. It's why the advice "Always monitor the dog and child" is worthless--if you don't know what to look for, you can't stop it before it's too late.

A 10 year old dog is not going to find a home from either a shelter or a rescue. Both are inundated with young dogs. Dogs over 6 are generally referred to as seniors, and have reduced adoption fees to try to beg someone to take them home. If you really aren't willing to make simple changes to your life to protect both the dog and the child, then the only appropriate thing to do is try to rehome the dog yourself, or put it down.

I'm not knocking your training skills, but your advice is the opposite of what I've found works with dogs. My parents had a dog that would growl if he disn't want you to come near him and our response was, as you advised, to leave him alone. He never bit anyone but he continued growling for the rest of his life when he wanted to be left alone. Later I got a dog who would occasionally bark and growl at me when he was not happy, wanted my chair, etc, and I would always yell loudly at him, growl right back, and hold him on the ground on his side until he calmed down and stopped resisting. After a month or so of that he stopped growling and has been well behaved for years since. He's also never bitten anyone. If he is pissed odd now he just takes a passive resistance approach by lying on his back so you can't pick him up.

The first PP is absolutely correct here. Growling is an early warning system and an acceptable way for a dog to express displeasure. So many people think that the only way a dog can be good is to just walk away, that growling is aggression. So, so so wrong.

The second poster: sorry. The Cesar Milan, alpha style of training has been discredited because while YOU may have good results, this is not how it works for most dogs. It's bad news.

To a dog, a one year old "just petting it" is rarely just that. Kids/babies give off an unpredictable vibe and dynamic that dogs sense. Separating until the kid is older, and doing everything the first trainer above said, is a great solution. It is so exceedingly rare for dogs to attack unprovoked. If the baby is taught to just leave the dog alone and not provide unsolicited attention, things will work out.

I was the PP that responded to the trainer. Yeah my sample size is pretty small so I can't say whether it would work for most dogs. In my old, though, it makes sense to teach the dog that it's unacceptable to get angry about whatever was making him growl in the first place. When my dog was a puppy and I had guests over, he would occasionally growl at them when they were sitting on a chair in the living room because he wanted to sit on the chair instead. Obviously I wasn't going to make my guests sit on the floor and let the little prince sit on their chair just so he wouldn't growl. He got the message pretty quickly that he needed to just chill out and accept that he'd need to hang out on the floor when the chairs/couch were taken. Maybe he is just easy going for a dog, I don't know. He's never bitten anyone intentionally since he was a tiny puppy and didn't know any better. We just screamed like hell when he did that (he was too small to do any damage of course) and he learned quickly. Nowadays every once and a while he'll accidentally get a bit of my finger when we are playing tug of war or whatever and if that happens he'll immediately jump back and put his head down to indicate "oh shit sorry didn't mean to do that." My guess though is that this sort of approach might only work if you do it starting when the dog is a puppy. My parents' old dog was much more neurotic and I doubt whether this approach would have been fruitful. But anyhow, my opinion is that you want to make it clear to the dog that he is not the boss and isn't aloud to growl and bark when he wants to get his way.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Professional dog trainer here.

SO much misinformation in this thread. Please please please read this:

Never, EVER punish growling. Growling is a good thing! It is the dog trying to tell you that it is uncomfortable with the situation, and you need to remove the child. It is the only way the dog really has to tell you that it doesn't like what is going on.

If you choose to punish the dog (by yelling at it, grabbing the scruff, etc) when it growls, it will absolutely stop growling--which is when things get really dangerous. You have taken away its ability to communicate. Next time, when the dog is scared/cornered, it will not growl because it knows it will get punished for doing so. It will resort to snapping out of desperation.

I would do the following:
1) Give your dog a safe place to retreat to. A room, a crate, a fenced off portion of the living room. Some place that your children are not allowed to go anywhere near. When dog is feeling overwhelmed, it can go to its safe spot.

2) Teach your children to ignore the dog 100% of the time, unless the dog approaches them for attention. My son has been redirected from the time he began to crawl. Any time he crawled towards the dog, he was turned around and we engaged him with other toys or games.

3) When the dog came over and nuzzled him for pets, we taught him to gently pat her back, never her face. He is now 18 months, and he never approaches the dog or touches her face.

4) Read up on dog body language. People always say, "The dog snapped! I had no idea it was coming! Totally unprovoked!" Any decent trainer will tell you otherwise. Dogs show a wide range of signals when they are stressed. Yawning, panting, "whale eyes", ear set, etc are all cues that the dog is overwhelmed and needs you to help it out of the situation. Learn these signs, for the sake of everyone in your household. I cringe when I watch these youtube videos of children crawling all over the family dog who supposedly "loves" it. The dog is ALWAYS showing signs of stress. The people just don't realize it, because the dog isn't growling or moving away. It's why the advice "Always monitor the dog and child" is worthless--if you don't know what to look for, you can't stop it before it's too late.

A 10 year old dog is not going to find a home from either a shelter or a rescue. Both are inundated with young dogs. Dogs over 6 are generally referred to as seniors, and have reduced adoption fees to try to beg someone to take them home. If you really aren't willing to make simple changes to your life to protect both the dog and the child, then the only appropriate thing to do is try to rehome the dog yourself, or put it down.

I'm not knocking your training skills, but your advice is the opposite of what I've found works with dogs. My parents had a dog that would growl if he disn't want you to come near him and our response was, as you advised, to leave him alone. He never bit anyone but he continued growling for the rest of his life when he wanted to be left alone. Later I got a dog who would occasionally bark and growl at me when he was not happy, wanted my chair, etc, and I would always yell loudly at him, growl right back, and hold him on the ground on his side until he calmed down and stopped resisting. After a month or so of that he stopped growling and has been well behaved for years since. He's also never bitten anyone. If he is pissed odd now he just takes a passive resistance approach by lying on his back so you can't pick him up.

The first PP is absolutely correct here. Growling is an early warning system and an acceptable way for a dog to express displeasure. So many people think that the only way a dog can be good is to just walk away, that growling is aggression. So, so so wrong.

The second poster: sorry. The Cesar Milan, alpha style of training has been discredited because while YOU may have good results, this is not how it works for most dogs. It's bad news.

To a dog, a one year old "just petting it" is rarely just that. Kids/babies give off an unpredictable vibe and dynamic that dogs sense. Separating until the kid is older, and doing everything the first trainer above said, is a great solution. It is so exceedingly rare for dogs to attack unprovoked. If the baby is taught to just leave the dog alone and not provide unsolicited attention, things will work out.

What is there to think about?

The dog is OUT OF THERE.

TODAY.

Anonymous wrote:OP some of these posters are nuts. I love dogs and have been raising and training German Shepherds for years. We have two now. The day a dog (not a puppy, an adult dog) snapped at anyone would be his last in our home.

The dog goes.

+1

So many crazies.

Its not that hard to train a child to stay away from the dog.
Why the hell are you letting him crawl all over an elderly dog? Do you not supervise him properly?

OP,

First, keep them separated. We made great use of baby gates - sometimes to keep the baby out, sometimes to keep the dog out. We found our dog (who was very stressed when my son was first mobile) wanted to be separated from the baby. She learned the command "up or out" and would choose to either go outside or to the stairs (where one of the gates was, she would lay on the landing). We found that this actually alleviated the dog's stress.

Second, it is OK to rehome the dog. If you haven't already, reach out to family and friends and see if anyone is willing who does not have young children. Be honest - the dog is great with older kids (if true), but not with young ones. People who know you may be willing to take in the dog.

Third, see if you can contact a rescue group who will work on re-homing while the dog is with you or a foster family.

LOL! It's always the pet forum that brings out the craziest people on DCUM. A dog and a human child, the same? Are those words actually being typed by a human into a computer to be posted forever on the Internet?

op - don't know if you are reading, but my father has seen several babies/toddlers in his lifetime as a trauma surgeon that had their throats ripped out by a dog, and others who had their face mauled - disfigured for life. It always "happened so fast" or "came out of nowhere ". Your decision. Don't waste time.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OK, op again. I am keeping them separate. I know a shelter is a death sentence. But, if that's what needs to happen to keepy baby safe I will do it. I would love to find a new home. But how?

You need to SCREAM at the dog when he growls at the baby. He will get the message. I'd rather you dropped your baby off at a shelter than your dog, though.

Ha! You people are NUTS! You don't have children I assume.

OP some of these posters are nuts. I love dogs and have been raising and training German Shepherds for years. We have two now. The day a dog (not a puppy, an adult dog) snapped at anyone would be his last in our home.

The dog goes.

I'm sorry, OP. You are not in a great situation. I sincerely hope for a positive outcome for you, your children, and your dog. I had to put a dog down for aggression and it was very hard. I still have nightmares almost 4 years later because we got very close to a serious attack from a large and powerful dog. The only advice I would give is to get someone in who can give you clear, objective advice and to make a promise to follow through with the advice. (I did not and it nearly ended in tragedy.)