^^^^pp here and want to add: it's hard not to be self-absorbed if you don't have kids.

The women I know without kids fall generally into two camps, with overlap occurring in some situations: (a) never wanted kids or was/is on the fence about it, or (b) has a crappy partner/ no partner.

Frankly - and I know I'm going to be flamed for this - I frequently see women who didn't have kids because they didn't want them as being self-absorbed (same goes for men). I have literally had a conversation with an unmarried girlfriend with no kids say she was worried about what having kids would do to her body. Some men and women without kids just seem to have arrested development - concerned with appearance, working out, dating, going out, and their career. Ultimately, this does not seem like a very fulfilling way to live (but that might just be the jealousy talking ).

Women and men who want kids but either haven't found the right partner or deal with infertility come across differently. There's more of an empathy, a softness there that I don't generally see in the camp described above.

I am a single parent. I still see my single childless friends, as well as the married friends with kids.Many of my single childless friends have dogs, and I feel the same way about their dogs that they do about my kids: cute, but I don't need one myself. Thus, we have a meeting of the minds.

The DINKs are the ones I never see. They were mostly only available when their husbands are doing something else, and generally are less flexible about doing kid friendly activities.

Most of my female coworkers don't have kids, so I guess I see it as normal. A couple of voluntarily told me why they don't have kids, but most haven't and it doesn't really occur to me to ask.

Anonymous wrote:My husband and I weren't able to have kids. (We tried everything and then some.) At work, and in our circle of friends, the women with kids really have a sort of lovely community of sorts. How do women like this see women without kids?

I have a lot of friends who were never able to have children and I don't judge them in any way. I also don't feel sorry for them. I just value them for their friendship and I also give special attention to the things they ARE passionate about (like their pets or their causes) because those ARE their children.

I'll just answer the question. I find myself wondering why - if it was by choice, and if so, why..... or if it was a couldn't have kids situation. And I immediately tell myself it is none of my business and do my level best to put the questions out of my mind and just see the person as simply a human being whose path doesn't look exactly like mine.

I have 4 young kids and I love my friends who don't have kids...but they adore my kids, so I mean it's not all selfless I also love hearing about their lives and appreciate the energy they have to do things like repot my plant when they see me neglecting it and bring me chicken soup from Whole Foods when DH is on travel and I come down with a bug. They are good friends who are just at a different - not better or worse - station in life.

To be honest, I am waaaaay more judgey about other moms/dads of young kids who I see posting photos of themselves going out all the time and taking non-kid vakays. Also, it has been hard to maintain closeness with friends who have become parents but who parent really differently with regard to behavior and manners.

As far as people I was not friends with before kids, I don't really have any reason to socialize with the single and childless. The community I think you see, OP, is the village we have created for ourselves in order to survive. Whether it's play dates, carpooling or just a listening ear to bounce troubles off of, other parents are a great resource. If I did not have kids, I am not sure this same community would be the one I'd choose. Actually, I am sure it would not be - not bc I don't genuinely like the people, but bc we are primarily friends based on our roles as parents and similar values that guide our parenting philosophies.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Like others have said, it depends on the woman. Frankly, I have no problem understanding single women without children. It's the married women who intentionally choose not to have kids that I don't understand. I don't judge them, I just can't relate. Honestly, I don't really understand the point of getting married if you're not going to have a family (or at least try to have a family). I'd rather stay single and have more freedom, but that's just me, I guess.

Well, I kind of feel bad for your spouse if you view your marriage as a means to an end -- having children -- and not meaningful in and of itself.

I married my husband because I love him and want to be partners. We are a family, whether you want to acknowledge us as such or not. You have a narrow view of what constitutes a family. You also have a narrow view of the potential and meaning of marriage.

I have an older friend who lost her husband not too long ago. They never had children, but they were a strong couple and very bonded. I've never seen two people so perfect together. The friend was heartbroken when her husband died, but she has friends and has since developed more friendships with other widows. Her life is happy and full. And her marriage was a strong one, built on love and not some means to an end.

It kind of seems amazing to me that people can have children -- can experience that kind of humbling event -- and still be so close-minded, judgmental, and horrible. For all of the talk about how much you grow up when you have kids, I think some people don't get that memo and somehow they get worse when they have kids.

+1000

Anonymous wrote:Lucky.

+1000000

I don't think anything about them. I don't know whether they want kids or not, and I don't assume. And if they don't want kids I think good for them for being true to themselves (even though I always wanted kids).

Anonymous wrote:Like others have said, it depends on the woman. Frankly, I have no problem understanding single women without children. It's the married women who intentionally choose not to have kids that I don't understand. I don't judge them, I just can't relate. Honestly, I don't really understand the point of getting married if you're not going to have a family (or at least try to have a family). I'd rather stay single and have more freedom, but that's just me, I guess.

Well, I kind of feel bad for your spouse if you view your marriage as a means to an end -- having children -- and not meaningful in and of itself.

I married my husband because I love him and want to be partners. We are a family, whether you want to acknowledge us as such or not. You have a narrow view of what constitutes a family. You also have a narrow view of the potential and meaning of marriage.

I have an older friend who lost her husband not too long ago. They never had children, but they were a strong couple and very bonded. I've never seen two people so perfect together. The friend was heartbroken when her husband died, but she has friends and has since developed more friendships with other widows. Her life is happy and full. And her marriage was a strong one, built on love and not some means to an end.

It kind of seems amazing to me that people can have children -- can experience that kind of humbling event -- and still be so close-minded, judgmental, and horrible. For all of the talk about how much you grow up when you have kids, I think some people don't get that memo and somehow they get worse when they have kids.

Anonymous wrote:I am older and retired anD moved to a 55 and over golf community. We have kids and grandkids. We have met many couples who have never had kids. I find that we cannot relate to them. I'm am uncomfortable talking about my family in front of them. We can have a lovely time together, but we would not gravitate to them, nor them to us. They have more money than we do, have traveled more than we do (and continue to). We could not imagine life without kids and the have no concept of what raising a child or becoming a grandparent is like.
It becomes sad to me when one of them die. I have seen the surviving spouse gravitating to nieces and nephews and family when that have not nourished those relationships over the years. I know one lady who was an only child, married an only child and had no children. Her husband died and she has nobody.
At the end of the day....we all make our bed and lye in it.

I had a similar conversation with my dad recently -- but with a twist. My mom passed away at 65 and now, 8 years later, he has an active group of friends -- mostly men who also lost their wives. Some have children, some don't, but he said the real divider isn't the people who have kids vs those who did not. He finds a much bigger divide with the parents who aren't at all close to their children and aren't involved with the (even at a distance, as is our case) than with folks who just didn't have kids (for whatever reason). he said he doesn't have the same feeling of awkwardness.

This came up because he recently made a long distance move and landed in an over 55 community and has been meeting lots of new people.

It's interesting to hear the different perspectives.

I think they must have a lot of fun and a relaxing life outside work. I picture them lounging with a glass of wine, watching their favorite show. Then I get jealous.

I don't judge or think about them being any different. They are just people. I too suffered through infertility and losses - so I'm more sensitive than most. I generally feel it out before having a conversation about my kiddo -- if it's IF then I minimize though I still invite my childless friends to kid events and they can decide if they want to go or not. I remember getting left out a lot as I'm a later in life mom. I also relish my kid-free time with them. It's so nice going to a nicer restaurant or out to cocktails without having a kiddo demand Cheerios and Elmo during appetizers.

I am older and retired anD moved to a 55 and over golf community. We have kids and grandkids. We have met many couples who have never had kids. I find that we cannot relate to them. I'm am uncomfortable talking about my family in front of them. We can have a lovely time together, but we would not gravitate to them, nor them to us. They have more money than we do, have traveled more than we do (and continue to). We could not imagine life without kids and the have no concept of what raising a child or becoming a grandparent is like.
It becomes sad to me when one of them die. I have seen the surviving spouse gravitating to nieces and nephews and family when that have not nourished those relationships over the years. I know one lady who was an only child, married an only child and had no children. Her husband died and she has nobody.
At the end of the day....we all make our bed and lye in it.