Anonymous
Post 09/22/2015 07:46     Subject: S/O Elder care for parents who didn't provide child care
Anonymous wrote:Consensus in the thread asking why grandparents no longer provide child care seems to be that grandparents don't owe their kids and grandkids squat. Okay, I can agree with that. But is the reverse true?

DH's parents live close enough to help with our daughter and his mother is a lifelong SAHM. She is only 59, but prefers to keep her schedule open to watch TV all day, travel a few times a year, and make gossipy phone calls. So, we pay for child care and it is really eating into our finances. I am fine with this. Our kid, our problem.

Here's the rub: DH's parents have zero in retirement savings. Social security and DH's Dad working until he dies is what they are banking on. I make a good amount of money (more than DH) and kill myself to earn it. DH's mother has started dropping hints lately about how nice it would be for us all to move in together one day. They don't have jack shit to contribute, so I know DH and I would be basically carrying them financially, with the bulk coming from me. That is what DH's mother is after.

Recently, she made a joke about living with us and I responded with a grin: "Paying for child care is eating through the money we'd have helped you with." She dropped the topic quickly. I don't think I owe her and FIL squat. She has spent her life as she pleases, staying home instead of building financial security by working, not giving a red cent to DH for college because thinks kids are responsible for their own education, and refusing to help with her grandkid because she would rather catch up on talk shows. Am I wrong? I think DH will go along with what I decide.


Setting boundaries are good. Discussing and coming to those boundaries and coming to an agreed upon plan together with your spouse is even better. I may be prudent to have them not move in with you, but you may still have to subsidize them in the future. IME and IMO, there isn't a quid pro quo with family. You do it because of who you are not because of what they did for you. Another aspect is that your children are watching and learning from your behavior.
Anonymous
Post 09/22/2015 07:45     Subject: S/O Elder care for parents who didn't provide child care
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I don't think I have ever encountered such selfish women as I see on dcum. My mil was a royal bitch who showed no interest in her grandchildren and by all accounts was a a pretty awful mom. We still supported her for over a decade. She was family, she gave birth to my Dh and her care was our obligation. What the hell has become of our society where everything is tit for tat and no one does the right thing simply because it is the right thing?


I thought being a martyr was its own reward, but clearly you want a pat on the back: Congrats. You're a sucker who let a selfish bitch bleed you. You win?


No, no, no... being a martyr isn't its own reward. Being a martyr is rewarded by being allowed to feel superior to everyone else and by yelling at anonymous people about how much better you are than them.


Lol! So true. Martyrs are never content to do their "good" works. They have to let as many people know as possible. Worst sort of drama queen behavior.
Anonymous
Post 09/22/2015 07:44     Subject: Re:S/O Elder care for parents who didn't provide child care
Anonymous wrote:This seems to be a common generational dispute: The concept of "respect they parents no matter what they do because they gave us life" is shared by the boomers and not so much by generation X onward.

Not sure we're going to solve this in this thread.

That said, if you just zoom out a bit and think about group dynamics, any one person being perceived as a free loader when others are feeling stressed is going to cause problems. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if OP and her husband were seriously pulling it in, this thread wouldn't exist. The problem is that OP is stressed and has limited resources (as most of us do), and is frustrated that healthy MIL isn't concerned with this fact. I may be wrong, but if MIL said "I know childcare must be costing you a bundle, can I help with the kids two days a week?" OP would probably feel more concerned with overburdening an older lady.

I don't think OP is saying "my MIL has to raise my kids or else she deserves to be treated like crap." I think she's just frustrated that MIL is being oblivious and selfish while she is stressing out.



That's because Gen X was raised by late Silents and by Boomers and they did a shitty job of parenting. Gen X got ignored a lot by parents who had their own agendas to pursue. We got soaring divorce rates, parents who were more focused on careers than kids, and parents who ditched their kids to "find themselves" and become self-actualized. Those same parents (mostly Boomers) also didn't help with childcare for the grandkids because they were too busy doing their own thing. Now those parents want to come back and demand that Gen X take care of them in their old age. It feels remarkably like being used after 30 -50 years of being ignored.

If your Boomer/Silent parents helped you out, by all means help them. If they didn't help you out, then you don't owe them a thing. They'll have to find their own way, just like we did.
Anonymous
Post 09/22/2015 07:39     Subject: S/O Elder care for parents who didn't provide child care
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:quote=Anonymous]
So why would you want someone you obviously think has poor judgement to raise your child? Sounds like MIL's not the only one trying to get something for nothin'. I guess it's true that men marry women just like their mothers.

Now that you have gotten that out of your system, you might want to try reading the thread.


I did, every painful word. You don't like her, you think she's lazy and gossipy, and yet you want her to raise your child. I get that you're concerned about their future in so far as it impacts you. You are not the only couple on the planet who had parents who didn't plan well. But you also sound like you are a judgmental bean counter. You're doing it to your husband, too, by the way.

Make a plan with your husband about what you can and cannot do for them. Then share it with them so that they can plan accordingly. If they wash their hands of you, so be it. You don't seem to care much for them anyway.


You're not the sharpest tool in the shed if you think people can do other people's retirement planning without any access to financials. You've taken your potshot, which is clearly all you are good for. Stop posting now.
Anonymous
Post 09/22/2015 07:38     Subject: S/O Elder care for parents who didn't provide child care
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I don't think it should be tit for tat, as you seem to expect, OP. If your MIL was a loving, supportive mother to your DH, I think you two absolutely owe her your loyalty and support - it's a matter of respect. An old lady who wants to spend her days as she sees fit has more than earned her right to do so. You shouldn't have to raise TWO generations of children to "earn your keep" as matriarch. If she was neglectful or abusive in raising your DH, I can see why you'd be hesitant - but are you seriously saying that because she won't watch your kid she doesn't deserve to be taken care of later in life?


She is 59. Not an "old lady" by any measure.


This. A 59 year old woman has no more right to sit on her ass and refuse to support herself or her husband than a 30 year old woman does. She is not sick or disabled. She is not old. She is in her late middle age.

She has 9-10 good working years left. She should go to work and shove as much as she can into a 401(k). Even at a minimum wage job at a place like Walmart, she could get some savings to help cushion the retirement blow. FIL should also start maximizing his 401(k) immediately. Between the two of them, they can get some money to help with their retirement issues.

They should also start looking at the cheapest places that they can retire. If they have a house, the sale of their house in an expensive market and the purchase of a house in a cheap market could go a long way to funding retirement.

DH and the ILs and maybe a financial planner need to sit down and talk about it.

If OP doesn't want to support her ILs, she should make it clear to her DH that she is not willing to sacrifice the financial security of her children and herself for the ILs when they are unwilling to contribute to their own retirement. If they are willing to contribute to their own retirement, she might want to chip in some money, just to keep the peace.
Anonymous
Post 09/22/2015 07:35     Subject: S/O Elder care for parents who didn't provide child care
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I don't think it should be tit for tat, as you seem to expect, OP. If your MIL was a loving, supportive mother to your DH, I think you two absolutely owe her your loyalty and support - it's a matter of respect. An old lady who wants to spend her days as she sees fit has more than earned her right to do so. You shouldn't have to raise TWO generations of children to "earn your keep" as matriarch. If she was neglectful or abusive in raising your DH, I can see why you'd be hesitant - but are you seriously saying that because she won't watch your kid she doesn't deserve to be taken care of later in life?


Sure, but then she doesn't get to assume that she'll get to move in with her son and his wife.

No one is "owed" anything in this world. We all have to be useful and inspire love and respect if we want to be in a respected position like "matriarch." MIL is doing a bad job of that.

You're on to something here. If my in laws had not been able to save for retirement or pay for college and had tried their best, that would be one thing. They have spent life doing what is easiest. Spending all their money instead of putting some away. MIL refusing to work long after the kids no longer needed care. Even buying more house than they could afford just because they like to show off. Talking shit about me because kicking someone who appears passive is fun and easier than building a good relationship. Then refusing to pay it forward by helping out with their grandkid. I don't respect any of their decisions or perceive them with the warmth that would enable me to feel good about helping them. On some level, helping them now would feel like rewarding assholes for being assholes. If someone is going to rely on me, least they can do is help me feel good about it.

-OP
Anonymous
Post 09/22/2015 07:31     Subject: S/O Elder care for parents who didn't provide child care
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I think OP is perfectly reasonable. I would feel exactly the same in her position. Just because people are family does not mean you have to sacrifice your life to help them when all their lives they have done nothing but the bare minimum to help. If they need a few thousand dollars for an operation or some such then yes, you have an obligation. But to have them live with you, potentially for decades, because they have failed to provide for themselves when they had every opportunity? No way.
Even if this woman does not want to provide childcare, her own kids have been out of the house for how long? 20 years? She could easily get a job herself in retail or whatever. It isn't like CVS appears to be particularly picky. But she is lazy. What goes around comes around.


So why doesn't the husband talk to his parents about making a reasonable retirement plan? Everyone I know has either helped their parents make a plan or are aware of their parents assets and plans. And that includes a few parents who have made extremely bad choices. I can't imagine walking away from my parents just because they made mistakes. You all sound like awful people.


Well aren't you making an ass out of yourself by assuming we haven't tried to help? We sat them down repeatedly to ask them to make a real plan for retirement. We offered to pay for a financial planner if they weren't comfortable going over financials with us. In response, FIL told us it was none of our business how they spend their money and MIL accused me of wanting them to save so that I could lay claim to the money when they die, lol. DH has continued to try to talk to them, but I will never again raise the topic with them. MIL is only now starting to worry about retirement now that their friends are starting to develop health problems or retire with nice nest eggs.

-OP



So why would you want someone you obviously think has poor judgement to raise your child? Sounds like MIL's not the only one trying to get something for nothin'. I guess it's true that men marry women just like their mothers.

Now that you have gotten that out of your system, you might want to try reading the thread.


I did, every painful word. You don't like her, you think she's lazy and gossipy, and yet you want her to raise your child. I get that you're concerned about their future in so far as it impacts you. You are not the only couple on the planet who had parents who didn't plan well. But you also sound like you are a judgmental bean counter. You're doing it to your husband, too, by the way.

Make a plan with your husband about what you can and cannot do for them. Then share it with them so that they can plan accordingly. If they wash their hands of you, so be it. You don't seem to care much for them anyway.
Anonymous
Post 09/22/2015 07:30     Subject: Re:S/O Elder care for parents who didn't provide child care
This seems to be a common generational dispute: The concept of "respect they parents no matter what they do because they gave us life" is shared by the boomers and not so much by generation X onward.

Not sure we're going to solve this in this thread.

That said, if you just zoom out a bit and think about group dynamics, any one person being perceived as a free loader when others are feeling stressed is going to cause problems. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if OP and her husband were seriously pulling it in, this thread wouldn't exist. The problem is that OP is stressed and has limited resources (as most of us do), and is frustrated that healthy MIL isn't concerned with this fact. I may be wrong, but if MIL said "I know childcare must be costing you a bundle, can I help with the kids two days a week?" OP would probably feel more concerned with overburdening an older lady.

I don't think OP is saying "my MIL has to raise my kids or else she deserves to be treated like crap." I think she's just frustrated that MIL is being oblivious and selfish while she is stressing out.

Anonymous
Post 09/22/2015 07:27     Subject: S/O Elder care for parents who didn't provide child care
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I don't think I have ever encountered such selfish women as I see on dcum. My mil was a royal bitch who showed no interest in her grandchildren and by all accounts was a a pretty awful mom. We still supported her for over a decade. She was family, she gave birth to my Dh and her care was our obligation. What the hell has become of our society where everything is tit for tat and no one does the right thing simply because it is the right thing?


I thought being a martyr was its own reward, but clearly you want a pat on the back: Congrats. You're a sucker who let a selfish bitch bleed you. You win?


No, no, no... being a martyr isn't its own reward. Being a martyr is rewarded by being allowed to feel superior to everyone else and by yelling at anonymous people about how much better you are than them.
Anonymous
Post 09/22/2015 07:27     Subject: Re:S/O Elder care for parents who didn't provide child care
Anonymous wrote:By providing care to your IL, you provide an example to your children - maybe they will follow your example and help you in your old age!


The example I am going to provide is one of hard work and responsible decisions. I am not going to live as if there is no tomorrow and then turn myself into a burden on others.

-OP
Anonymous
Post 09/22/2015 07:25     Subject: S/O Elder care for parents who didn't provide child care
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I think OP is perfectly reasonable. I would feel exactly the same in her position. Just because people are family does not mean you have to sacrifice your life to help them when all their lives they have done nothing but the bare minimum to help. If they need a few thousand dollars for an operation or some such then yes, you have an obligation. But to have them live with you, potentially for decades, because they have failed to provide for themselves when they had every opportunity? No way.
Even if this woman does not want to provide childcare, her own kids have been out of the house for how long? 20 years? She could easily get a job herself in retail or whatever. It isn't like CVS appears to be particularly picky. But she is lazy. What goes around comes around.


So why doesn't the husband talk to his parents about making a reasonable retirement plan? Everyone I know has either helped their parents make a plan or are aware of their parents assets and plans. And that includes a few parents who have made extremely bad choices. I can't imagine walking away from my parents just because they made mistakes. You all sound like awful people.


Well aren't you making an ass out of yourself by assuming we haven't tried to help? We sat them down repeatedly to ask them to make a real plan for retirement. We offered to pay for a financial planner if they weren't comfortable going over financials with us. In response, FIL told us it was none of our business how they spend their money and MIL accused me of wanting them to save so that I could lay claim to the money when they die, lol. DH has continued to try to talk to them, but I will never again raise the topic with them. MIL is only now starting to worry about retirement now that their friends are starting to develop health problems or retire with nice nest eggs.

-OP



So why would you want someone you obviously think has poor judgement to raise your child? Sounds like MIL's not the only one trying to get something for nothin'. I guess it's true that men marry women just like their mothers.

Now that you have gotten that out of your system, you might want to try reading the thread.
Anonymous
Post 09/22/2015 07:22     Subject: Re:S/O Elder care for parents who didn't provide child care
Anonymous wrote:You know, I've seen some awful behavior on DCUM, but this has to be among the worst. First of all, the quid pro quo that you are invoking is between the parent and the child. My parents raise me as best they can, and in turn I will try to ease their burden at the end of their lives. Not they raise me, AND they raise my children, and then if I think they've spent their lives in a meaningful fashion I will maybe help them out. Your MIL has raised her children, and you obviously thought she did a good job because you married one of them. So you need to get over the idea that somehow she has to work for you in order to earn your respect.

It's obvious that you don't like your MIL, and you are using your child as a weapon to exact your revenge on her life choices. Why don't you separate what YOU want from her (free child care) from the red herring that you are concerned about their financial future? Why hasn't your husband talked to them about their retirement savings and planning? It's unfathomable to me that nobody in your family cares enough to try to help them make a plan. If FIL is still working, they can still put together a few assets and do some planning. Has your husband already washed his hands of them?

Where are your parents in all this? They're not raising your child either. Do they get a pass because they're your parents, not his? Do you expect your husband to step up and help them out in their old age? Because all of our parents are going to require help at some time, even if it's not financial.

And with all of this nonsense about your good job and how you're such a high earner, hard worker, etc etc., why is it so difficult to pay for daycare for one child? Serious question. It doesn't sound like you'd be in much of a position to help his parents at all if daycare is "eating into your finances" so much.




My parents live 3000 miles away and have saved for retirement carefully all their lives, despite making less than FIL used to. They aren't looking to be a burden on anyone else. My parents also paid for college and I actually had to ask them to stop giving me money when I graduated because I wanted them to spend on themselves. I effectively put DH through college because I am the one who paid off the debt he accumulated because his parents believed college should be the kids' problem.

I don't need to explain my child care arrangements to you. The fact remains that my MIL is in the position to help and refuses to do so, which is her right. But after a lifetime of her doing her and being shortsighted about the future, it's all about to catch up with her. I don't see why I should be in charge of taking care of my kids and carrying in laws too.

-OP
Anonymous
Post 09/22/2015 07:22     Subject: S/O Elder care for parents who didn't provide child care
OP, I think it depends on many factors. A lot could change between now and the time this possibly becomes an issue. I certainly understand your feeling that MIL is selfishly looking for a bail out - funded by you - and not reciprocating.

I don't think children owe their parents anything and so I'm saving for the future. I also plan to take care of my parents if they need it.

Perhaps you should insist on getting a life insurance policy on FIL payable to a trust or something for the care of MIL. I realize that would be expensive....

Also, would you really want childcare from this selfish woman? I also paid about $12k a year for five years per kid. But they got a worthwhile social and kindergarten prep.

Anonymous
Post 09/22/2015 07:21     Subject: Re:S/O Elder care for parents who didn't provide child care
By providing care to your IL, you provide an example to your children - maybe they will follow your example and help you in your old age!
Anonymous
Post 09/22/2015 07:20     Subject: S/O Elder care for parents who didn't provide child care
Anonymous wrote:I don't think it should be tit for tat, as you seem to expect, OP. If your MIL was a loving, supportive mother to your DH, I think you two absolutely owe her your loyalty and support - it's a matter of respect. An old lady who wants to spend her days as she sees fit has more than earned her right to do so. You shouldn't have to raise TWO generations of children to "earn your keep" as matriarch. If she was neglectful or abusive in raising your DH, I can see why you'd be hesitant - but are you seriously saying that because she won't watch your kid she doesn't deserve to be taken care of later in life?


She is 59. Not an "old lady" by any measure.