Anonymous wrote:

I would feel terrible running into a kid. I do go more slowly around out of control kids (and out of control dogs) That does not make it any less irresponsible and rude to take an out of control kid onto the OD.

Even if you observe other people's behavior, as you should, you really don't get to decide who is allowed to use the trail and who is "rude". Taking the attitude that someone else doesn't belong on the trail may interfere with your own ability to behave responsibly by clouding your judgment with anger.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
How is that any different from what I said about trails - I said cyclists do have to wait for a safe opportunity to pass, but they are not obligated to go at walking speed when there IS an opportunity to safely pass.

Deciding whether there is a safe opportunity to pass requires observing the behavior of other people, whether it's on the road or on a trail. If you see are driving and see a wobbly bicycle, slow down and give it plenty of room; if on a trail you are trying to pass a small child (or, for that matter, a dog) you have to be ready to stop, and if you need to walk your bike, do so. How would you feel if you actually ran into a kid?

Driving you need to give 3 feet while passing. That is generally the amount of space I give a pedestrian when passing on a trail - on the WOD if I pass well over the yellow line (and I do) that is easily 3 foot to a ped who is walking on the right.

I would feel terrible running into a kid. I do go more slowly around out of control kids (and out of control dogs) That does not make it any less irresponsible and rude to take an out of control kid onto the WOD.

Anonymous wrote:
The W&OD is a multi-use trail. Anyone who uses it (and I do daily to commute to work downtown) needs to understand that and expect all sorts of people doing all sorts of things. You don't get to pick and choose who you share this resource with.

I expect cyclists. I expect joggers. I expect walkers. I expect people from one to one hundred.

I also expect people to stay to the right, to allow faster users to pass safely. I expect parents with children who cannot do that to take their children elsewhere.

I also expect SOME parents with children who cannot do that, to take their kids on the trails anyway. That is because some people are jerks and some parents think they fact that they managed to reproduce gives them the right to be rude and to make life miserable for everyone else. They are no less jerks then the joggers who do the crazy Ivans, or the Fred cyclists who go to fast or do to the insane thread the needle passes.

Anonymous wrote:
Oh, come on.

The W&OD is a multi-use trail. Anyone who uses it (and I do daily to commute to work downtown) needs to understand that and expect all sorts of people doing all sorts of things. You don't get to pick and choose who you share this resource with.

Of course they don't get to. However, they do get to refer to the trail rules, and to express the opinion that people who are not capable (for whatever reason) of following the trail rules should not use the trail.

Do three-year-olds just learning how to ride a bike get to use the W&OD trail? Yes. Are there better places for three-year-olds to learn to ride a bike? Also yes.

Anonymous wrote:
How is that any different from what I said about trails - I said cyclists do have to wait for a safe opportunity to pass, but they are not obligated to go at walking speed when there IS an opportunity to safely pass.

Deciding whether there is a safe opportunity to pass requires observing the behavior of other people, whether it's on the road or on a trail. If you see are driving and see a wobbly bicycle, slow down and give it plenty of room; if on a trail you are trying to pass a small child (or, for that matter, a dog) you have to be ready to stop, and if you need to walk your bike, do so. How would you feel if you actually ran into a kid?

Why does someone here keep insisting that "kids do not belong on the trails until they can follow the rules" equals "kids do not belong on the trails" ? Do you take the same approach to restaurants? Movie theaters? Libraries?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not a crazy bicyclist (nor am I fast), but 3 year olds on bikes with training wheels are the worst on the bike trails. They just aren't safe. I saw a collision two weeks ago with a toddler that ran into the wrong side of the W&OD. The toddler wasn't hit, but the bicyclist was injured as he skidded off into a tree. And the toddler's mom couldn't do anything because there was a baby strapped to the back of her bike too. Gah.

Small children with training wheels do wobble all over the place, but with a bike you can always get off and walk it. There's no excuse for hitting a kid!

The cyclist mentioned by the PP did not hit the kid. The swerved off the trail and hit a tree.

I should not have to slow to walking speed, let alone dismount, when there is room to pass on the left side of the trail. If you cannot keep your 3YO on the correct side of the trail (that is part of learning to ride) then you need to find somewhere else to teach them to bike.

Yes - it is a process for the 3 YO to learn these things. And they can't learn unless they try. You on the other hand have learned to slow down and proceed with caution around pedestrians and children. If you're so wrapped up in your own universe that you can't be bothered to occasionally slow down and proceed with caution, then maybe a multi-use trail isn't the place for you. Clearly the parent with the 3 YO should be vigilant, but accidents happen. If you're on a multi-use trail, generally speaking, pedestrians have the right-of-way and bicyclists should be extra cautious.

Sorry, but that's what neighborhood sidewalks and cul de sacs were made for. Long trails like W&OD are for longer rides.

Oh, come on.

The W&OD is a multi-use trail. Anyone who uses it (and I do daily to commute to work downtown) needs to understand that and expect all sorts of people doing all sorts of things. You don't get to pick and choose who you share this resource with.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Sorry, but that's what neighborhood sidewalks and cul de sacs were made for. Long trails like W&OD are for longer rides.

No, sorry. The public trails belong to everyone, and that includes children. If you don't want to encounter slow pedestrians and kids on bikes, stick to the streets.

They belong to everyone, but everyone must follow the rules. Children who can stay to the right are welcome. Children who cannot, who must run or ride unpredictably back and forth across the trail, should learn elsewhere.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I should not have to slow to walking speed, let alone dismount, when there is room to pass on the left side of ride)

Then why should a driver have to slow to bicycle speed? It's a parallel situation.

It is precisely parallel, yes.

The cyclists must stay to the right of the yellow line allowing the driver to pass. (if there are two lanes in the same direction, as there never are on trails, the cyclists must take the right most one, unless they are about to make a left turn)

The driver is fully entitled to pass the cyclist at speed, allowing sufficient room to do so.

IF there is opposing traffic, or a blind curve, the driver must wait until there is an opportunity to pass safely.

How is that any different from what I said about trails - I said cyclists do have to wait for a safe opportunity to pass, but they are not obligated to go at walking speed when there IS an opportunity to safely pass.

Anonymous wrote:

Sorry, but that's what neighborhood sidewalks and cul de sacs were made for. Long trails like W&OD are for longer rides.

No, sorry. The public trails belong to everyone, and that includes children. If you don't want to encounter slow pedestrians and kids on bikes, stick to the streets.

Anonymous wrote:
I should not have to slow to walking speed, let alone dismount, when there is room to pass on the left side of ride)

Then why should a driver have to slow to bicycle speed? It's a parallel situation.

Anonymous wrote:Trails are for everyone and there is no priority for the spandex speed crowd. If you have to stop and wait to pass a slower group, well, tough shit. Ride on the road if you don't like slowing down.

if there is a slow group on the right, and oncoming traffic (whether another slow group, or a fast cyclist) approaching on the left, I do slow down and wait for the opportunity to pass safely.

But if there is a slow group moving in the same direction I am going, it is their obligation to stay to the right and allow me to pass on their left. That is the rule on the W&OD, and is trail etiquette just about everywhere in the USA. If they refuse to do so and block the trail in violation of the rules, they are jerks.

Anonymous wrote:
11:42 again - I don't recall seeing signs on any trails like W&OD that they're just for longer rides or that little kids learning to ride aren't allowed. Sure, parents of such kids need to be vigilant, but these are multi-use trails open to everyone.

No, but you may see this

http://www.nvrpa.org/uploads/Files/trailrules.pdf

Note

Always travel to the right of the center line

Do not block the trail when stopped.

If your 3YO can follow those rules, then its fine.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

11:42 again - I don't recall seeing signs on any trails like W&OD that they're just for longer rides or that little kids learning to ride aren't allowed. Sure, parents of such kids need to be vigilant, but these are multi-use trails open to everyone.

Yes, and I-95 is open to everyone (all drivers, that is), but I'm still not going to take my sixteen-year-old out on I-95 the first time she gets behind the driver's wheel.

But at some point, while she's still learning, you're going to take her out there.

But let's not conflate learning to drive on a freeway with a little kid out with his/her parents on a multi-use trail. If you can't understand "open to everyone" and can't be bothered to be cautious around pedestrians and kids, then find someplace else to ride.

It depends. If the little kid in question is incapable of following what is probably the most important rule on the W&OD, keeping right and moving directly and predictably, then yes, it is like learning to drive on the interstate.

You keep implying that we are saying kids do not belong on the W&OD - that is a strawman. We are saying that kids who can follow the W&OD rules are welcome, but those who cannot should learn somewhere else first.

Anonymous wrote:
11:42 again - I don't recall seeing signs on any trails like W&OD that they're just for longer rides or that little kids learning to ride aren't allowed. Sure, parents of such kids need to be vigilant, but these are multi-use trails open to everyone.

No, what the signs is say is stay to the right. Anyone of any age who is capable of staying to the right, to allow others to pass, is welcome to use the W&OD. In fact I often see little kids (not sure the age) doing a great job of "holding their line" behind their parents. BUT - if your kid is not up the point where they can bike properly and predictably on the W&OD, then no, they do not belong on the W&OD. It is a transportation facility for cyclists, runners, and pedestrians (and horseback riders in some sections), it is not a playground.

There are lots and lots of places where it would be appropriate to take a 3YO to learn to ride on training wheels. Neighborhood sidewalks, basketball courts, cul de sacs, quiet trails in neighborhood parks, etc.

There is no good alternative to riding on the W&OD depending on where you are going.