So much of this thread makes clear that much of what happens on school is about the adults. Who cares is academic awards are counterproductive if they make the adults feel good. Screw research and evidence, this is about our cherished myths about rewarding academic achievement and preparing kids for the real world. Who cares if awards actually do this - research says not - if they make adults feel good.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We've had some European exchange students stay with us, and they all find our American reward and certificate obsession completely weird and alien. So those of you here who are saying "that's life," well, it's not life everywhere. Even in countries that are doing a helluva lot better than we are on any number of metrics.

As one kid put it, if a teacher's student isn't winning awards, isn't it really the fault of the teacher?

Ha!

Yes, this must be exactly why America is doing worse than other countries. Never mind that they don't have the drastic educational inequality, or that their culture probably respects intellectuals more, or that their teachers are highly qualified, highly paid, and highly respected, or that their curriculum is more developed, uniform, and organized nation-wide, it must be our "obsession" with certificates.

You are arguing against a point I did not make. Please turn your attention to the words and try again. I'll give you a little trophy if that helps.

No need to be rude, it just emphasizes the fundamental weakness of your argument.

It IS life. Maybe kids don't get certificates everywhere, but people are rewarded for their work and accomplishments everywhere. And sometimes that reward is not fair. Like I said, if you have to contort yourself so much for the sake of avoiding your kids' discomfort, something is wrong with the way you are thinking. You are not going to be hovering over your kid forever, keeping them from feeling disappointment.

No, the point is that adults create the school environment and decide what will go on there and how children will be recognized, motivated, and rewarded for what they do. For some reason, adults think this is an appropriate thing to do to children, when actual real research on children's experience of this stuff for the short and long term tends to be either "meh" or, overall and quite predictably, the OPPOSITE of what we want to have happen.

So what I am saying is: (a) It is not a universally accepted part of "life"--other cultures think it is a bizarre and alien practice. (b) There is no reason to contort yourself or your child into accepting a practice that is completely optional and done at the whim of adults who think it is fun to see children stand with awards. Children do not care--at least, not in the ways we think and hope they do. (c) As mentioned, actual data suggests this is a countermotivational thing to do in education--seek out the highest achieving young kids and give them awards at an assembly.

And therefore, as mindful and cognizant adults who construct the worlds of school where our children grow up and presumably develop important understandings of what learning is, why they learn, why they try hard, who they are, and what others value of them, we can decide to do it. Or not. And I say not.

At those ages, academic awards are completely subjective and mostly about who the teacher likes and who is slightly more developed or a year older than the rest of the class. There is very little basis for 2nd grade awards that actually gives each kid a fair chance based on how hard they work.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We've had some European exchange students stay with us, and they all find our American reward and certificate obsession completely weird and alien. So those of you here who are saying "that's life," well, it's not life everywhere. Even in countries that are doing a helluva lot better than we are on any number of metrics.

As one kid put it, if a teacher's student isn't winning awards, isn't it really the fault of the teacher?

Ha!

Yes, this must be exactly why America is doing worse than other countries. Never mind that they don't have the drastic educational inequality, or that their culture probably respects intellectuals more, or that their teachers are highly qualified, highly paid, and highly respected, or that their curriculum is more developed, uniform, and organized nation-wide, it must be our "obsession" with certificates.

You are arguing against a point I did not make. Please turn your attention to the words and try again. I'll give you a little trophy if that helps.

No need to be rude, it just emphasizes the fundamental weakness of your argument.

It IS life. Maybe kids don't get certificates everywhere, but people are rewarded for their work and accomplishments everywhere. And sometimes that reward is not fair. Like I said, if you have to contort yourself so much for the sake of avoiding your kids' discomfort, something is wrong with the way you are thinking. You are not going to be hovering over your kid forever, keeping them from feeling disappointment.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We've had some European exchange students stay with us, and they all find our American reward and certificate obsession completely weird and alien. So those of you here who are saying "that's life," well, it's not life everywhere. Even in countries that are doing a helluva lot better than we are on any number of metrics.

As one kid put it, if a teacher's student isn't winning awards, isn't it really the fault of the teacher?

Ha!

Yes, this must be exactly why America is doing worse than other countries. Never mind that they don't have the drastic educational inequality, or that their culture probably respects intellectuals more, or that their teachers are highly qualified, highly paid, and highly respected, or that their curriculum is more developed, uniform, and organized nation-wide, it must be our "obsession" with certificates.

You are arguing against a point I did not make. Please turn your attention to the words and try again. I'll give you a little trophy if that helps.

This is well put. Thank you PP.

Anonymous wrote:

But school isn't about achievement and when you make it about achievement you inhibit the learning of award winners and looser alike. The thread was started by a mom whose son asked her if he just wasn't smart. He is coming to think of himself in a certain way. School isn't "one particular thing" you can't be best at, it is an endeavor you are engaged in for 6 hours of your day! If you are not very good at your job, you will not keep it, which is fine, because you can find a job you are good at. Kids cannot find a better job and there is no reason to rank who is very good and who is not - in fact there is every reason not to rank since ranking in elementary school is harmful to all. We are a culture OBSESSED with academic achievement, unfortunately, for kids who could learn more but don't because they've labeled themselves a certain way (perhaps because they aren't good at school, perhaps because they aren't precocious and by the time their cognitive abilities caught up, they already labeled themselves) or don't because they won awards and have come to care more about the awards than learning (which often involves messy failures that won't win any awards)

Yes, this must be exactly why America is doing worse than other countries. Never mind that they don't have the drastic educational inequality, or that their culture probably respects intellectuals more, or that their teachers are highly qualified, highly paid, and highly respected, or that their curriculum is more developed, uniform, and organized nation-wide, it must be our "obsession" with certificates.

Straw man. If we are so much worse, why do so many wish to come here?

Anonymous wrote:We've had some European exchange students stay with us, and they all find our American reward and certificate obsession completely weird and alien. So those of you here who are saying "that's life," well, it's not life everywhere. Even in countries that are doing a helluva lot better than we are on any number of metrics.

As one kid put it, if a teacher's student isn't winning awards, isn't it really the fault of the teacher?

Ha!

Yes, this must be exactly why America is doing worse than other countries. Never mind that they don't have the drastic educational inequality, or that their culture probably respects intellectuals more, or that their teachers are highly qualified, highly paid, and highly respected, or that their curriculum is more developed, uniform, and organized nation-wide, it must be our "obsession" with certificates.

We've had some European exchange students stay with us, and they all find our American reward and certificate obsession completely weird and alien. So those of you here who are saying "that's life," well, it's not life everywhere. Even in countries that are doing a helluva lot better than we are on any number of metrics.

As one kid put it, if a teacher's student isn't winning awards, isn't it really the fault of the teacher?

Ha!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So you can't reward genuine hard work because the ones who aren't academic stars will get their feelings hurt? Millennials in a nutshell.

Jeezus, can you read or put three thoughts together to form a coherent argument? Stop watching so much Fox Snooze, it rots your brains.

Pp here and I loathe Fox News and would never lower myself to watch it. My point stands. It is ridiculous to deride awards because they point out some people are NOT achievers and that is a very recent attitude.

That is not the reason offered for "deriding awards." It is the measured, documented (as well as anecdotally observed) impact of these awards that are the reasons for deriding them. You see? There is a logical, empirical argument for it.

Just like there is (hopefully) a logical, empirical argument for any number of policy and practice decisions. Not just that someone somewhere likes it and thinks it's fine.

I'm sorry. I still don't get it exactly. I-9 for instance is a sports group that each week gives an award for the kid who exhibits good sportsmanship characteristics and for following the directions of the day. They say this is an important part of their philosophy to reward children who listen well, try hard, and are helpful to their teammates. They aren't really innate abilities and they say the kids love them and are encouraged to follow suit so that they get a reward another time. Is it rewarding for innate abilities that you don't like or are you against rewards in general? Intrinsic motivation is great and more important, but I'm not sure the research says life should be devoid of external motivation.

That is a different kind of reward. It is frequent, and presumably every gets a chance to be recognized. If, however, there are a few kids who persistently are not recognized because they are badly behaved, you can be sure that the promise of the weekly reward is NOT working for them and the notion of the reward as incentive has failed. Time to talk with those students and question why the heck you're using these rewards as a behavior management system when it's not reaching the kids you want to reach.

I don't recall any awards in grade school. I believe they started in middle school. I also found it strange that they had "student council" in grade schools here.

I have a child in a FCPS elementary school where awards are given to 3 kids in each class at the end of each grading period. The categories are achievement, character and personal best. I have no problem with this. Good motivation and the categories make receiving an award attainable for everyone not just the kids who get good grades. Each child can only receive an award one during the school year. So when DC comes home upset that he/she didn't receivevan award, tell them to work on improving their character or trying THEIR personal best.

And no law firm should have partners unless everyone can be one. And there should be no pro teams because really good players are still not being chosen. And definitely no sales bonuses or performance awards.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am shocked by this thread. How are you people going to teach your children to navigate the world? Kids need to learn that it's important to work hard, that the kids who win awards are not necessarily smarter than them, but may be working harder, and that even if they try their best, they may still not win. This is LIFE, and elementary age children are more than capable of handling it.

so kids need to learn to try harder and they need to learn that no matter how hard they try they just aren't good enough? Fine if that is in one thing that is about on thing in their lives, but school is their whole life right now. So lets' say you have a job and aren't winning the awards there - promotions career advancement. The lesson is to try harder right? Ok. so you try your hardest and you still aren't able to advance (can't make partner or get tenure). Well, you find a new job that better fits your talents and proclivities and you advance at that one. Life lesson here is to move on. But kids can't move on (till maybe they can choose the votech path in high school) and we don't want them to move on. Wewant them, to learn. So do these awards help students learn? no.

School is not sports. It is about learning.

Wow. Kids who don't get awards aren't "not good enough" they just aren't the best at one particular thing. It is not a big deal, and not analogous to promotion at work. Moving on to the next grade is the promotion, and almost all of the kids get to do that. People who are the best at their jobs will advance and get special awards, and sometimes it will not be directly correlated to their effort. This is just life. You cannot be the best at everything. We should be a culture that celebrates achievement in school.

But school isn't about achievement and when you make it about achievement you inhibit the learning of award winners and looser alike. The thread was started by a mom whose son asked her if he just wasn't smart. He is coming to think of himself in a certain way. School isn't "one particular thing" you can't be best at, it is an endeavor you are engaged in for 6 hours of your day! If you are not very good at your job, you will not keep it, which is fine, because you can find a job you are good at. Kids cannot find a better job and there is no reason to rank who is very good and who is not - in fact there is every reason not to rank since ranking in elementary school is harmful to all. We are a culture OBSESSED with academic achievement, unfortunately, for kids who could learn more but don't because they've labeled themselves a certain way (perhaps because they aren't good at school, perhaps because they aren't precocious and by the time their cognitive abilities caught up, they already labeled themselves) or don't because they won awards and have come to care more about the awards than learning (which often involves messy failures that won't win any awards)

I understand everything you are saying, but what I am saying is that a parent has to turn stuff like this into a teachable moment. This is an opportunity to talk to your kids about hard work, achievement, what "smart" actually means, and what your values are. I just think you are really under-estimating kids by thinking that they cannot handle these concepts and will label themselves and be scarred for life. That is just not healthy. And it is not healthy to live in a world where you have to contort yourself to that extent to avoid your children's discomfort.

Anonymous wrote:
Isn't the knowledge gained and skills mastered its own reward? Why do we require that others who sit around us in school see us getting a pat on the back for something that is already a reward?

Then it follows we should eliminate all awards, certificates.