OP, I think your marriage can be saved because first, the problems in your marriage do not involve addiction, cheating, or abuse. And second, in your OP, you said you both still love each other.

So I think you have a good platform to begin.

Some PPs have recommended strategies (like this Gottman book, which I've never heard of but it's such an easy to-do, it's worth a shot). So you've got the platform and a plan, now. I'm hopeful for you both.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do we have a Gottman troll on this board? In at least three separate threads, someone is pushing Gottman's books and seminars really hard.

It's actually Gottman. I have read one of his books and it was pretty good. I liked the Runkel book more

Oh, you think Gottman is lurking here and pushing his own books? That would make a lot of sense. The writing style of the posts endorsing him does seem similar.

Seriously? Stop.

The Gottman studies are really well-known. Just because it's new to you and seems like they might be helpful in the OP's situation, doesn't mean that someone's trolling. It's just particularly applicable here. Gottman is as common and generally well-known to many people as Ferber. He's a leader in the field of marriage research.

No one needs to "push" his books. He's doing quite well. Sheesh.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Ha! I'm going to call:

- unreliable narrator
- not "type A" but weak ego and overcompensating, bordering on abusive
- DH is walking on eggshells and emotionally exhausted
- His family sees all this quite clearly and doesn't like what you are doing to him and the kids; you are probably right to infer they don't like you - you don't sound very likable.

HTH, HAND

OP here. You are not going to derail my thread. Bye.

Not pp but I think you need to consider some of this, it will likely come up in therapy (I say this as the poster who had similar issues and went to therapy)

I am the PP first quoted here. I am sorry, but the OP sounds like she's putting 100% of this on her husband and it *never* works that way.

OP: My husband didn't divorce me because he was tired of me and my emotionally incestuous family" - I'm a DH who dumped a fiance for being too enmeshed in her family of origin. I got tired of her bat-shit crazy (actual diagnoses was bipolar) meddling mother, and my fiance not being able to think for herself. Of course, I did it before I got married to her. I also know, all too well, that I played my own part in contributing to our horribly dysfunctional dynamic.

By the way, the word you're looking for here is "enmeshed" - not incestuous. That'll help with your googling.

I'm not a Gottman Troll, but I do recommend their books - I think they are incredibly insightful. I'm not sure about it as a therapy workbook so much as starting to see relationship dynamics - particularly the importance of respect for individual autonomy and feelings vis-a-vis contempt (which your original post exudes). In your post, you lay out a dynamic where all the responsibility for change is on your husband's shoulders, and all the blame for a bad dynamic is his family's fault: you're all victim here, despite being the controlling director. It just doesn't all add up. Before worrying about marriage/couples therapy, maybe spend some time in solo therapy, just working on your own frustrations and feelings.

I posted originally about how your marriage sounded like ours but with roles reversed.

And I just wanted to highlight one of the real benefits in a marriage of opposites - that if you put in the hard work it really teaches you to understand that other *good* people see things differently than you do. Too often in life we can write off the opinions of people who see things differently, but if you can use the love and respect you have/had for your spouse to get to the place that you can honor a different viewpoint and actually get benefits from it, then that is a skill that will carry over into all areas of your life. I know that learning to live with me and understand how I can come to certain conclusions has really helped my husband in dealing with work colleagues who share a worldview that is closer to mine than his.

Anonymous wrote:It's just weird that Gottman suddenly pops up in three different threads in the space of one hour.

I have been frequenting DCUM for a long time now and never heard him come up until now, and then suddenly, he came up several times and PPs KEEP talking about him.

I am not saying his approach hasn't worked for PPs, but something smells about the timing of this barrage of endorsements for Gottman.

I am not one of the 'Gottman PP's' but he has definitely come up before, especially on this board. His studies are really well known.

Yes, I'm a PP that brought up Gottman...
One simple thing that you can do now, without any therapy, is to tell him a few things every day. Simple things like "thank you for taking out the trash" (Even if you had to remind him 10 times) or "they way you played with the kids while I cooked dinner was really helpful" can really be effective.

It helps him because all studies have shown positive reinforcement works better than negative. But more importantly, it will force you to quit focusing on his negative aspects. When you really start to focus on the good things, your attitude will change. And I bet he will change too.

One thing to keep in mind, and I saw this in my father, when you are so negative and controlling, the other person doesn't want to do anything because he doesn't want to get yelled at. Why should he do anything when he is just going to be told he is doing it wrong or can feel your eyes rolling behind him. My Dad, who used to fly planes in the Navy, now can't even pick his own slice of pizza because every time he did, my Mom always told him he picked the wrong one. So now he stands there and looks to her to choose.a.slice.of.pizza.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Aren't you happy he works so much? Find a way to contract out as much of your family life as possible. Develop your own close relationships outside of marriage.

Huh? How will having no family life possibly lead a couple to happiness?

It will lead her to individual happiness. I know, because that's the path I took.

OP here. This doesn't sound happy. If the only way to get along with him is to lead a completely separate life as if he doesn't exist, then I might as well divorce him. I am not even sure how cutting him out of my life would work, even if we were divorced, because we have kids.

The reason it's better is you don't have to give him half the money, you still have a lot of control over your kids' lives and you can spend your leisure time in ways that make you happy, instead of dealing with him in your little spare time.

are you kidding? Being in a miserable marriage is a special kind of hell.

OP - I feel you. My STBX also had serious issues with his mother, never stood up for me, or us, or himself (one time she sat in our living room and screamed at me in front of my STBX and told me what an entitled princess I was - while I was 9 mos pg with #2. Then she stormed out and refused to speak to me for 6 months. He never even addressed or acknowledged it). He was also super passive aggressive in all areas of his/our life. We have three kids, and by the time we separated, it was like I had 4, and the 4th hated me. It was awful. True to form he has barely seen the kids, does not financially or emotionally support them, and will probably end up moving back with his family a couple of thousand miles away. He has been unemployed for a year (has lost 4 jobs in 6 years), we lost our house, and he got his car impounded. So what started out for me as a communications issue, and some bumpy marital troubles, ended in flames. And yes, we did loads of therapy, always at my suggestion, for years. Bottom line is he didn't want to be married with kids, and I did.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP. if it's okay to ask, what is your zodiac sign?

OP here. Lol, you saw my mention that he is a Leo, huh? I never believed in astrology before meeting DH and I am still not sure I believe in it. Some of those descriptions of Leos though have me wondering if someone who knows DH wrote the profile, lol. He is a lazy Leo and I am a stressed case Aries. Apparently, our rising signs are really telling too because he is a Cancer Rising while I am a Capricorn Rising. But those are all supposed to be compatible, according to what people who are into astrology tell me. So much for astrology being accurate!

Um, Aries woman and Leo man? Not an easy fit. I get it now. Yeah...

If you want to take this perspective (SHUT UP DCUM COMMUNITY! I CAN HEAR YOUR SMUG DISPLEASURE WHILE I'M TYPING. SHHHH!), then you are going to have to acknowledge the lion claws, and dim your fire if you want this thing to work.

I was in a Cancer/Leo relationship and learning not to get my feelings hurt by things that came naturally to that lion was my first battle. DH frequently said things that seemed harsh to me, who had let him in to the soft part beneath my shell. It was blunt, but not meant to wound. Once I took that stance and was able to look at the dynamic from a distance, I could see past my own pain over a seemingly gruff answer to a casual question.

If you're citing astrological evidence, you're self-aware enough to know the power of an Aries woman. Whoa! You guys are intense. Tremendous advocates. Frightening adversaries! You've got to step away from the idea that your leadership can be denied! How are you even viewing this as an issue? Aries women rule. That you have a situation where you and your lion aren't each vying for power is to be applauded. From what you've shared, you both appear invested in marriage. As for you being compatible, clearly you are or your marriage wouldn't be an issue. You wouldn't have lasted through courtship otherwise.

A Leo with Cancer rising is a loving beast. Take time away to consider the foundation. If we're speaking astrologically (SHUT UP DCUM!), Leo just wants to feel safe. Just as an Aries woman is born to lead. Step back and make a list of your true deal breakers. When the time is right, share them with DH. Hopefully, you'll be able to table your fiercest fire and couch the deal breakers in a positive context, by acknowledging the good in your marriage and the track record you all have in working through things successfully.

Good luck! Let us know how it goes.

Anonymous wrote:You are us, with roles reversed. Read Gottmann or another book on communication styles - it really makes a huge difference in better structuring conversations, and in learning how to ensure you're both actually talking about the same issue. And have you tried communicating issue in writing - email, text, etc.? I know lots of people will say texting is a terrible format for hashing stuff out but it actually works really, really well for us since it removes the whole issue of tone and nonverbal communication.

On the 'help' vs taking charge - can you explicitly lay out who is responsible for what and then just let his stuff go?

This seems to be very sound advice, OP.

It seems like you are personalizing the need to initiate. If he really is someone who accepts guidance and will follow through when asked, I'd be happy to live with it. But, if you have to ask him to do things on a daily basis that's an entirely different story. Splitting up the family responsibilities is always a good idea. That you initiate this discuss is immaterial. If you have to prompt him to follow up on his list, well, that's exhausting for anyone.

Is it that he confides in his mother, the gossip monger. Or, do you have a problem that he has a need to share private issues with someone else? I have a friend who's like a sister to me. I don't share every single aspect of my relationship, but she is a great help when working out a problem. Not only to I have to process, I trust and value what my friend has to say. She's come out on Team Him on several occasions. It's facilitation, not just a vent.

You asked: "Can this marriage be saved?" How much are you willing to let go of your feelings about taking lead? How comfortable are you allowing DH to continue communicating with his mother, even after certain limits have been set? It's time to look inward, OP. I hope you find your way through this.

Anonymous wrote:OP, I was in your shoes. I went into counseling thinking the problem was him, him, him. After we got into it I realized that I had much more of a me problem (though there are certainly things he needed to work on). I had to cede control on some things and let him do them his way, and if I didn't do something for him that I normally would have picked up he had to deal with the consequences. When we communicate sometimes I have to mentally step back and cool down. It takes work and it isn't always pleasant but we are making great progress.

OP here. I don't think it's all him. I have complete confidence that any therapist worth his or her salt will tell me that I am too type A: nitpicky, perfectionistic, workaholic, grudge-holding. I think the therapist will also say that my husband is self centered, defensive, complacent, lacking in responsibility, and hyper sensitive to criticism. We know what we each do. The hard part is no longer doing all of that and learning a new dynamic. They say that acceptance/acknowledgment is the first step, but we have been stuck at step 1 for most of our marriage.

Anonymous wrote:OP. if it's okay to ask, what is your zodiac sign?

OP here. Lol, you saw my mention that he is a Leo, huh? I never believed in astrology before meeting DH and I am still not sure I believe in it. Some of those descriptions of Leos though have me wondering if someone who knows DH wrote the profile, lol. He is a lazy Leo and I am a stressed case Aries. Apparently, our rising signs are really telling too because he is a Cancer Rising while I am a Capricorn Rising. But those are all supposed to be compatible, according to what people who are into astrology tell me. So much for astrology being accurate!

OP, I was in your shoes. I went into counseling thinking the problem was him, him, him. After we got into it I realized that I had much more of a me problem (though there are certainly things he needed to work on). I had to cede control on some things and let him do them his way, and if I didn't do something for him that I normally would have picked up he had to deal with the consequences. When we communicate sometimes I have to mentally step back and cool down. It takes work and it isn't always pleasant but we are making great progress.

OP. if it's okay to ask, what is your zodiac sign?

Anonymous wrote:It's just weird that Gottman suddenly pops up in three different threads in the space of one hour.

I have been frequenting DCUM for a long time now and never heard him come up until now, and then suddenly, he came up several times and PPs KEEP talking about him.

I am not saying his approach hasn't worked for PPs, but something smells about the timing of this barrage of endorsements for Gottman.

What are the other threads? I'm one of the Gottman posters and a DCUM addict (not going to ask Jeff to vouch for it, but I'm sure he would) and I haven't seen those. Maybe I'm actually getting better about spending too much time on DCUM after all!

That said my guess is that some of the other Gottmann posters have seen those other threads and posted on them there as well because it was a similar topic at the same time. I don't think it's some big conspiracy. Just a reflection on which portion of the DCUM audience happens to be posting this morning.

OP, I'm sorry that you're feeling so emotionally drained from this whole situation. I would like to offer a couple drops of constructive criticism.

1. You need to stop being contemptuous of the way that your husband communicates. When he tells you that your communication style is cold or aggressive, listen to him. Listen to yourself. Think about the way things SOUND without factoring in what you know you meant when you said them. My husband sometimes gets upset with me for not being, at various points, "supportive," "warm" or "loving." When he tells me this, I think back to what I said, and how I said it, and a lot of times, he is right that I had a tone or didn't empathize with him. You need to stop seeing his need for you to frame your requests in a particular way as needing to be coddled and respect that his needs for a particular style of communication are just as valid as your need to communicate in a particular way.

2. Confronting his mom about her treatment of you is going to backfire. There is no way around that. He will not defend you to his mom, will absolutely defend her to you and since you have kids, there's no way that this conflict does not continue to spill over into your life, over and over, for the rest of those kids' lives. There's no way that you come out of that conversation looking like a reasonable adult, regardless of how unemotional you are when you have the conversation itself. Your conflict is with your husband in this situation. He is the one oversharing your life with his mother and she is passing it along to the rest of the family. You could try to communicate with your husband about this in his style - "DH, when you told your mom about X, Y, Z from my family history, I felt very vulnerable and like my privacy had been violated. That she then shared that information among the rest of the family compounded those feelings. I understand that you and your mom are close, but please consider that she and I are not close in the same way and try to keep the details of my personal life out of your conversations with her about other things."