This is apropos:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/inspired-life/wp/2015/04/02/dont-be-a-bachelor-why-married-men-work-harder-and-smarter-and-make-more-money/?tid=hybrid_experimentrandom_1_na

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry OP. You can marry a traditional woman who's going to want kids, or you can date a feminist who's happy to reject traditional roles, but you're going to have a tough time finding someone who's neither. Especially if you are a gross "men's rights activist," which is just code for a misogynist.

There are, of course, feminists who also want to have children.

Oh, of course. I am one. But OP is tossing around a bunch of mens-rights jargon, which would send any self respecting feminist into orbit. So his dating pool is limited to women who will date a MRA long-term with no potential for marriage or children. I'm sure those women exist somewhere; maybe PPs are right that online dating would help him find them.

I'm the PP a few posts above who married a 37-year-old and I totally agree. I wish I'd read the whole thread before posting; this guy is messed up.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry OP. You can marry a traditional woman who's going to want kids, or you can date a feminist who's happy to reject traditional roles, but you're going to have a tough time finding someone who's neither. Especially if you are a gross "men's rights activist," which is just code for a misogynist.

There are, of course, feminists who also want to have children.

Oh, of course. I am one. But OP is tossing around a bunch of mens-rights jargon, which would send any self respecting feminist into orbit. So his dating pool is limited to women who will date a MRA long-term with no potential for marriage or children. I'm sure those women exist somewhere; maybe PPs are right that online dating would help him find them.

OP, i think I know which thread you wrote, because I recognize your writing: you have a keen sense of the issues but an odd way of distancing yourself from the underlying anxieties. I said it on that thread and I'll say it here: you need therapy. I have a feeling you know the answer to these questions (the answers that are right for you), but you keep asking the same ones over and over and over without any gaining any real insight. You need some one on one time with a good therapist to figure out why you don't have the confidence to accept the answer you know in your gut is right for you. I think you need to accept that it's impossible to live a life without regret. Unmarried and without children, you will wake up one day and say "what the hell have I done". Likewise, married and one kid has significant special needs and you will wake up one day and say "what the hell have I done"? See what I mean? You reflect so much but you don't seem to delve too deeply. Go for it. You're at a good place in your life to grow emotionally, but not from any answers you're going to get from a bunch of strangers on the internet.

After a certain age, a never married guy becomes less desirable than his divorced counterparts. Not having kids is one thing. A man of a certain age is perceived as noncommittal is a turnoff to most women.

But if you truly don't want a family, so what?



This is questionable. I think ex-wives, step-children, and child-support are much more of a turnoff for many.

For a 34 year old, sure. A single 34 year old woman would prefer the never-married 34 year old man over a 34 year old divorced man with 3 small kids, an ex-wife very much in the picture, and $8,000 a month in child support for the next 18 years. all things being equal

But. A never-married 57 year old man sends off blaring alarm bells with red rocket flares, I assure you. The rich ones (and there are some in the silicon valley / NYC finance world) will nevertheless land a fertile gold-digger younger wife who immediately has 2 children with him.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That's the thing, I don't want to just date. Like most people, I see myself in a long-term monogamous relationship that is fulfilling.

Unfortunately most women in my date range (+/-10 years) either have kids or want them. So sometimes it feels isolated and like I might lose out on a potentially solid partner just because of this.

I can give or take on the question of marriage although I see no point of legalizing a relationship if there are no plans for bringing kids into the world.

However, is it wise or fair to compromise on something so serious as having kids? Regrets further on, or will I suddenly have an epiphany once they arrive?


OP

I agree with those who say that so long as you are upfront with what you want, there's nothing wrong with it.

The only anecdotes I have concern two men who were similar to yourself. They did indeed find nice women who wanted to be in a relationship without marriage or kids. Unfortunately for both these men, after a few years, the women left to pursue other people. Because there was no actual marriage, it was a lot easier for them to leave. I mention it because these two guys sound similar to yourself -- they didn't want to marry because they saw potential divorce to be a hassle and costly. I think they didn't realize that one day it would be the woman who wanted to leave, not themselves.

Forgot to add -- both these guys found it hard to get back into the dating scene after spending a long time in a monogamous relationship. One guy was in his late 40s and the other guy was in his mid 50s. It's not that there wasn't any available people -- it's just that the pool of people who didn't want to marry and didn't want to have kids was a lot smaller, and seemed to include a lot of women with a chip on their shoulder (according to them).

Anonymous wrote:That's the thing, I don't want to just date. Like most people, I see myself in a long-term monogamous relationship that is fulfilling.

Unfortunately most women in my date range (+/-10 years) either have kids or want them. So sometimes it feels isolated and like I might lose out on a potentially solid partner just because of this.

I can give or take on the question of marriage although I see no point of legalizing a relationship if there are no plans for bringing kids into the world.

However, is it wise or fair to compromise on something so serious as having kids? Regrets further on, or will I suddenly have an epiphany once they arrive?


OP

I agree with those who say that so long as you are upfront with what you want, there's nothing wrong with it.

The only anecdotes I have concern two men who were similar to yourself. They did indeed find nice women who wanted to be in a relationship without marriage or kids. Unfortunately for both these men, after a few years, the women left to pursue other people. Because there was no actual marriage, it was a lot easier for them to leave. I mention it because these two guys sound similar to yourself -- they didn't want to marry because they saw potential divorce to be a hassle and costly. I think they didn't realize that one day it would be the woman who wanted to leave, not themselves.

Anonymous wrote:

1. If you were a mid 30s guy, solid education and good career prospects, and don't really NEED marriage and kids to feel fulfilled, would you?

HELL NO!

If you don't affirmatively want kids at this point in time, I would say there is no reason to get married. I would try to be compassionate toward those you date and not lead them on or waste a lot of their time if they want marriage and children.

While I am married, my sense is that if you decide at age 40 you want kids, it will not be difficult at all to find someone to start a family with. 50 might be a different animal to some extent.

More likely, you will eventually meet someone who changes your mind. Until that time, have fun.

Anonymous wrote:That's the thing, I don't want to just date. Like most people, I see myself in a long-term monogamous relationship that is fulfilling.

Unfortunately most women in my date range (+/-10 years) either have kids or want them. So sometimes it feels isolated and like I might lose out on a potentially solid partner just because of this.

I can give or take on the question of marriage although I see no point of legalizing a relationship if there are no plans for bringing kids into the world.

However, is it wise or fair to compromise on something so serious as having kids? Regrets further on, or will I suddenly have an epiphany once they arrive?


OP

Of course you will lose out on a whole swath of 30-something women if you don't want to have kids. Most people want to have kids. But that's OK. If you are upfront about it, that actually will help you find someone who suits you more efficiently.

FWIW, my husband was 37 when I met him. I was quite a bit younger. He'd never wanted to get married before, and then he did--he wanted to marry ME. I had never wanted to get married before, either, at least not to anyone in particular. Then I did--I wanted to marry HIM. That's the ideal situation. Marriage in the abstract shouldn't be the goal. The goal, if marriage is something you are up for, should be marriage to a particular person who knocks your socks off.

Anonymous wrote:Sorry OP. You can marry a traditional woman who's going to want kids, or you can date a feminist who's happy to reject traditional roles, but you're going to have a tough time finding someone who's neither. Especially if you are a gross "men's rights activist," which is just code for a misogynist.

There are, of course, feminists who also want to have children.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I see your point to some degree. But the desire to not grow old alone is more powerful.

There's no guarantee you won't grow old alone even if you do marry and have children.

Your family may be killed in a car accident while you're home waiting for them, and there you go.

Also, not wanting to be alone is a terrible reason to have children. The only reson why one should have children is that that person deeply wants to have children. All the rest is just selfishness.

Wanting your children around at the end of your life is part of the reason one might "deeply want" to have children. And it's not a "terrible reason." Jesus, histrionic much?

Besides, we're rational beings. EVERYTHING we do is inherently selfish.

Do you really think you were being altruistic and giving when you unleashed your offspring on the world? Should we thank you for them?

That.

I heard a show on the radio about how it is selfish not to have kids and thought WTF? It is not selfish to procreate untill everybody's on top of each other scrambling for fewer and fewer resources? Please. I wanted kids, but I have never been so delusional as to say I wanted them for the sake of the humanity or even for themselves. I wanted them for me, so I could experience the ups and downs of parenthood. I think child-free people are far less selfish than I ever was.

Anonymous wrote:Sounds like you're still bitter from your recent breakup. That's totally normal. You're probably not ready for marriage right now, if ever. And that's fine too.

The cons? After a certain age, a never married guy becomes less desirable than his divorced counterparts. Not having kids is one thing. A man of a certain age is perceived as noncommittal is a turnoff to most women.

But if you truly don't want a family, so what?

This is questionable. I think ex-wives, step-children, and child-support are much more of a turnoff for many.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I see your point to some degree. But the desire to not grow old alone is more powerful.

There's no guarantee you won't grow old alone even if you do marry and have children.

Your family may be killed in a car accident while you're home waiting for them, and there you go.

Also, not wanting to be alone is a terrible reason to have children. The only reson why one should have children is that that person deeply wants to have children. All the rest is just selfishness.

Wanting your children around at the end of your life is part of the reason one might "deeply want" to have children. And it's not a "terrible reason." Jesus, histrionic much?

Besides, we're rational beings. EVERYTHING we do is inherently selfish.

Do you really think you were being altruistic and giving when you unleashed your offspring on the world? Should we thank you for them?

Anonymous wrote:
So it sounds as if children is the sticking point. You don't mind the wife, but you do mind the kid hassle.

I can't imagine that any man or woman would regret the children they have begotten. Of course kids make you get out of your selfish mode, of course they're a ton of work. But... they're also a joy. As babies they have cute giggles and coos. As little kids they trust you and look up to you and say they love you and that you're the best in the world. Then they hate you. Then, if you've done your job right, they come back and ask for professional advice, ask for parenting advice, and say thank you for raising me right. And you get grandchildren if you're lucky, who you can spoil rotten like you never did with your kids.

If that doesn't appeal to you, I suggest you make it quite clear to your partner. So many threads on DCUM dealing with frustrated women who somehow thought their boyfriend who didn't want kids would change his mind...

Not wanting children doesn't make you selfish. It would be selfish to have children you didn't want.