Yes. A student may be a financial contributor for the family with a part-time job or a babysitter for siblings. Also, the student may be intimidated about living with others with different cultural ties.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, given the pretty dramatic financial aid initiatives some of the top universities have undertaken in the past decade, it would be a real shame if public school counselors weren't alerting high-achieving low-income first-generation college students that schools like Harvard, Princeton, and Stanford are trying to take money out of the mix for such applicants. Harvard, for example, waives both tuition and room & board for admittees whose families' HHIs are<60K and the free tuition offer may extend to families with HHIs over 100K in some cases (these families would have to pay for room and board).

I was a first generation applicant (well, FT -- both parents went to night school PT) but realize that I know these kinds of FA details now primarily because I'm an alumn.

Re population growth. Actually my birth cohort was larger than DC's. To the extent that she's facing larger applicant pools, that's a function of factors like the Common App, more international applicants, and the fact that college is a more universal aspiration (and/or increasingly seen as a necessity) now. College is the new HS in the US.

9:43 here. Yes, I agree this would be a shame. I should clarify that I can't say for sure, but I suspect this is what's happening. Perhaps other kids get the "try for FA at HYP" pitch but we unconsciously sent off "we don't need FA as much" vibes to the counselor when we went in for our one, single, face-to-face meeting. Who really knows.

All I can say for certain is, we definitely got the "UMCP is probably the best option for you" pitch and if we got it, I'm sure kids who need FA also got it. I will also say that of the 20-something kids who went to Ivies from our MCPS during DC's year, I can't think of one who isn't at least middle class or who doesn't have college-educated parents. I can think of a few from single parent households who are probably (I don't know for sure) lower-middle income, but even there the single parent always has a college education and at least one of the kids is a legacy at a top Ivy.

There are many reasons beyond the cost of tuition and room & board why first gen college students don't attend schools far from home. It's not nearly as simple as just securing financial aid (which of course is not simple at all).

Anonymous wrote:Will be facing this soon so serious question.....do I need the counselor? I am another type of counselor, have worked at a few univerisities in my younger years.

My kid is very average but very social/ well-liked in general by teachers/ adults. He is defintely liberal arts.

I want small for him as he will need a connection to faculty/staff as has adhd issues.

He also has a good connection to our catholic faith so I am thinking look at a few small catholic schools and a few small state schools in VA like Mary Wash or Longwood and call it a day. I can speak to them about cost and I can look on line to see if they want 3 or 4 yrs of a language, for example.

He is Eagle Scout, does a sport, and very involved with youth group, so will have referneces. Am I missing something? Love his counselor but she is young and seems overwhelmed, career center person not impressed. I really like our large public so nothing against them but I just don't see the need. Is this wrong and should I be working with them?

The first question before any other is: what is your estimated EFC and can you afford it? As a rule, Catholic schools are not particularly generous with financial aid, so if you need it, tread cautiously.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Completely useless to the point of detrimental. She has a son one grade or two ahead of DS. Her son goes to Rutgers. My son vehemently hates New Jersey. She kept encouraging him to go to Rutgers, even after he said he will never in his entire life spend the night in New Jersey let alone attend school there. Besides that, he was considering schools like Boston U, Cornell, Berkeley, Duke, etc.

Unfortunate, that counselor was swayed by what sounds like her son's good experience at Rutgers. But interesting that a 17-18-year old can hate a state so vehemently that he wouldn't even spend the night there. Really???? Sounds a little close-minded.

I'm sure that Princeton is besides itself that PP's son won't deign to spend a night in New Jersey.

Seriously, if my kid said something so stupid about any state, I'd laugh in his face and tell him to stop being a tool.

Eh, there are hundreds and hundreds of colleges out there. If a kid wants to eliminate entire states, who cares? So the kid wouldn't go visit Rutgers or Princeton; maybe he visited UVM and Dartmouth instead. (Yes, I know they aren't in the same state.)

9:43 again. Maybe it was optional? Maybe I took it and forgot? Maybe that's why Harvard wait listed me instead of accepting me?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh and SAT IIs did exist -- they were called Achievement Tests when I applied to college, but yeah APs were few and far between and SAT prep meant buying a book at the mall and taking some badly-designed multiple choice tests in it. At that point, College Board didn't release old tests and companies like Barron's did a poor job of replicating them.

I did an SAT prep class in the early 80's. Our neighbor ran one. We had the option of 6-8 AP. My kids have the option of over 20.

9:43 here. We didn't have them, that I know of, in the early '80s in a city of about 70,000. If SATIIs/Achievement tests existed, they weren't on my radar screen (and I applied to the most competitive colleges). You guys must have lived in much more sophisticated places.

Weird -- I thought they were obligatory for the two Ivies I applied to in the late 70s. DH, same year and opposite end of the country, took them as well. But both of us lived in emerging tech areas, so maybe it was just conventional wisdom in our HSs that you needed to take them rather than an actual admissions requirement.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh and SAT IIs did exist -- they were called Achievement Tests when I applied to college, but yeah APs were few and far between and SAT prep meant buying a book at the mall and taking some badly-designed multiple choice tests in it. At that point, College Board didn't release old tests and companies like Barron's did a poor job of replicating them.

I did an SAT prep class in the early 80's. Our neighbor ran one. We had the option of 6-8 AP. My kids have the option of over 20.

9:43 here. We didn't have them, that I know of, in the early '80s in a city of about 70,000. If SATIIs/Achievement tests existed, they weren't on my radar screen (and I applied to the most competitive colleges). You guys must have lived in much more sophisticated places.

11:06 here. Achievement tests (now SAT II) were definitely around. I grew up in suburban Boston class of '82.

Anonymous wrote:Wow, given the pretty dramatic financial aid initiatives some of the top universities have undertaken in the past decade, it would be a real shame if public school counselors weren't alerting high-achieving low-income first-generation college students that schools like Harvard, Princeton, and Stanford are trying to take money out of the mix for such applicants. Harvard, for example, waives both tuition and room & board for admittees whose families' HHIs are<60K and the free tuition offer may extend to families with HHIs over 100K in some cases (these families would have to pay for room and board).

I was a first generation applicant (well, FT -- both parents went to night school PT) but realize that I know these kinds of FA details now primarily because I'm an alumn.

Re population growth. Actually my birth cohort was larger than DC's. To the extent that she's facing larger applicant pools, that's a function of factors like the Common App, more international applicants, and the fact that college is a more universal aspiration (and/or increasingly seen as a necessity) now. College is the new HS in the US.

9:43 here. Yes, I agree this would be a shame. I should clarify that I can't say for sure, but I suspect this is what's happening. Perhaps other kids get the "try for FA at HYP" pitch but we unconsciously sent off "we don't need FA as much" vibes to the counselor when we went in for our one, single, face-to-face meeting. Who really knows.

All I can say for certain is, we definitely got the "UMCP is probably the best option for you" pitch and if we got it, I'm sure kids who need FA also got it. I will also say that of the 20-something kids who went to Ivies from our MCPS during DC's year, I can't think of one who isn't at least middle class or who doesn't have college-educated parents. I can think of a few from single parent households who are probably (I don't know for sure) lower-middle income, but even there the single parent always has a college education and at least one of the kids is a legacy at a top Ivy.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh and SAT IIs did exist -- they were called Achievement Tests when I applied to college, but yeah APs were few and far between and SAT prep meant buying a book at the mall and taking some badly-designed multiple choice tests in it. At that point, College Board didn't release old tests and companies like Barron's did a poor job of replicating them.

I did an SAT prep class in the early 80's. Our neighbor ran one. We had the option of 6-8 AP. My kids have the option of over 20.

9:43 here. We didn't have them, that I know of, in the early '80s in a city of about 70,000. If SATIIs/Achievement tests existed, they weren't on my radar screen (and I applied to the most competitive colleges). You guys must have lived in much more sophisticated places.

Anonymous wrote:Oh and SAT IIs did exist -- they were called Achievement Tests when I applied to college, but yeah APs were few and far between and SAT prep meant buying a book at the mall and taking some badly-designed multiple choice tests in it. At that point, College Board didn't release old tests and companies like Barron's did a poor job of replicating them.

I did an SAT prep class in the early 80's. Our neighbor ran one. We had the option of 6-8 AP. My kids have the option of over 20.

Oh and SAT IIs did exist -- they were called Achievement Tests when I applied to college, but yeah APs were few and far between and SAT prep meant buying a book at the mall and taking some badly-designed multiple choice tests in it. At that point, College Board didn't release old tests and companies like Barron's did a poor job of replicating them.

Wow, given the pretty dramatic financial aid initiatives some of the top universities have undertaken in the past decade, it would be a real shame if public school counselors weren't alerting high-achieving low-income first-generation college students that schools like Harvard, Princeton, and Stanford are trying to take money out of the mix for such applicants. Harvard, for example, waives both tuition and room & board for admittees whose families' HHIs are<60K and the free tuition offer may extend to families with HHIs over 100K in some cases (these families would have to pay for room and board).

I was a first generation applicant (well, FT -- both parents went to night school PT) but realize that I know these kinds of FA details now primarily because I'm an alumn.

Re population growth. Actually my birth cohort was larger than DC's. To the extent that she's facing larger applicant pools, that's a function of factors like the Common App, more international applicants, and the fact that college is a more universal aspiration (and/or increasingly seen as a necessity) now. College is the new HS in the US.

Anonymous wrote:Off to an auspicious start (private, jr year). Got us focussed, expanded DC's list, talked through testing schedule, gave advice to DC re choice of recommenders, will keep DC on task/timeline. (Glad to outsource that!) Will ultimately write the school's letter and zi feel confident she'll do a good job.

DH and I were both public school kids and are surprised at how much help the school provides. That said, the process seems more complicated and DC will be considering a broader range of schools than we did.

I've been very impressed with my the experience of my kids' friends at private schools. DCs both attended private schools for ES, so this is not going to be about bashing. I do think that private high schools are judged by some (not all) parents on exmissions, so the privates put more effort into making everybody happy and getting good results among the top private universities. Whereas the public schools brag more about the percent going to college overall, closing the gap, and helping kids find financial aid. DC's friend at Sidwell had seminar thing junior year, which is way more than my public kids got/are getting. I went to one college presentation in the evening at our MCPS public and there was a lot of great information about SATs and financial aid, which was surely really valuable to the parents attending, but there was very little (nothing? can't remember, haven't gone back for DC2) about strategizing for a top 10 university. I do get several emails from our MCPS high school every week about all the colleges that are visiting, organized tours of HBCs, and about dozens of scholarship opportunities (adds up to hundreds of scholarship opportunities every semester). If kids want to check out one of the top private universities, though, these aren't visiting our public HS and these kids will need to attend one of the area presentations at a hotel or private school.

Not complaining, though, because I think the public counselors really do serve the vast majority of their kids. DC1 got into a really great (top 5) university because we put a lot of research into it ourselves and don't need FA. We're in the middle of planning DC2's spring break college road trip as we speak. The one risk I think is that first generation college kids at our public probably wouldn't even consider the top private universities because, yes they are being pushed to UMCP like my kids were, but also because they don't understand the application process, they don't understand FA at the top private universities, and the public high school college counselors aren't really covering these things.

Yes, the process is much more complicated! The Common App, for one, means that you can apply to lots more schools fairly easily, but that also means that you need to think about more schools. Competition is much tougher because of population growth and the aforesaid Common App increasing applications. When I went through this, there was no SAT prep or APs in our smallish town (although apparently these things did exist in NYC and elsewhere at the time). SAT IIs didn't exist.

Off to an auspicious start (private, jr year). Got us focussed, expanded DC's list, talked through testing schedule, gave advice to DC re choice of recommenders, will keep DC on task/timeline. (Glad to outsource that!) Will ultimately write the school's letter and zi feel confident she'll do a good job.

DH and I were both public school kids and are surprised at how much help the school provides. That said, the process seems more complicated and DC will be considering a broader range of schools than we did.

Anonymous wrote:I hated the fact that my child's counselor seems to think everyone should go to UMCP. It's a good school and all but the hyperfocus of the counselor on College Park as the pinnacle of success was just annoying.

If this was at Blair, we had that counselor. All the high school course advice was geared to UMCP too (you really only need two years of language!). I'd be happy for DC#2 to go to UMCP because it's in the top 10 for his intended major, but it wasn't right at all for DC#1.