Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Rome?

Egypt is south of Rome.

very south

And so we promise you by Allah’s permission that this campaign will be your final campaign. It will be broken and defeated, just as all your previous campaigns were broken and defeated, except that this time we will raid you thereafter, and you will never raid us. We will conquer your Rome, break your crosses, and enslave your women, by the permission of Allah, the Exalted. This is His promise to us; He is glorified and He does not fail in His promise. If we do not reach that time, then our children and grandchildren will reach it, and they will sell your sons as slaves at the slave market.

Anonymous wrote:Rome?

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Peaceful religion

As I have said before, the communists used to talk about "sharpening the contradictions" and creating a situation in which people were forced to choose sides. IS is following the same strategy. Read this article about the latest issue of the group's magazine:

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/02/12/new-islamic-state-magazines-brags-eliminating-grayzone/

They are hoping for a "war of civilizations" so that Muslims in the West will be forced to make "one of two choices".

The more people like you react in the way you are, the better it serves the goals of IS. IS absolutely wants you to hold the entire Muslim religion guilty for their deeds. They absolutely want you to hate all Muslims.

Yet you jump at the chance to spread division and hate by labling the Chapel Hill murders a hate crime before the facts are in. Good job serving IS's goals and purposes hypocrite.

Man, there are a few out there who are so obsessed with criticizing anything I write that you have lost all touch with any sense of logic. Do you seriously not know the difference between suggesting a linkage between an individual's Facebook posting and his motive for committing a crime and the tarnishing of the religious beliefs of an entire group? Who was being divided by correctly stating that Hicks' Facebook posting showed that he was strongly anti-religious? How does that help IS?

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote: I agree that IS and Algerians living in Paris don't read DCUM. I said as much in an earlier post. I don't write for their benefit. Rather, I try to discuss things with the mostly US residents that read this forum. I am not going to rehash all of our earlier discussions -- feel free to go read the earlier threads if you have forgotten. If you believe that criticizing an entire religion is beneficial for achieving your goals -- whatever they are -- then by all means do it. I have never prevented you from doing it. IS has made clear that they welcome your doing exactly that. For myself, I advocate a smarter strategy. Instead of dividing Muslims from the West, we should divide Muslims from IS. I don't believe that you do that by insulting them.

Thanks for that. Another non-answer to my questions about whether Muslims are really as fragile as you think, whether ISIS is right that unkind words from DCUM are going to lead to mass Muslim uprisings in Europe, or whether conciliation has worked historically. Thanks also for the sinister references to "whatever my goals are", suggestions that I've forgotten earlier discussions, and assertions that your way is "smarter". (Note: do NOT call me butthurt again. I always point out your insults because I think it's better than getting down in the mud with you.)

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Why can't you just say that?

How exactly do you "divide Muslims from ISIS"? With cupcakes? I posted earlier that we need social and economic policies, so you don't own that, but it hasn't exactly worked in Europe either. Maybe they just need to try harder.... I still think, however, that as long as verses about how God wants you to kill unbelievers are allowed to stand without broad-based moral challenges, from within and outside Islam, then some future group like ISIS, the Taliban, or al Qaeda, maybe 50 years from now, will think they should act on these verses.

Signed, another fed up liberal

Here are answers to your questions:

1) "whether Muslims are really as fragile as you think". Muslims are no different than anyone else. Some are more sensitive than others. Just like DCUM posters.

2) "whether ISIS is right that unkind words from DCUM are going to lead to mass Muslim uprisings in Europe". IS never made such a claim so they can neither be right nor wrong.

3) "whether conciliation has worked historically". Of course conciliation has worked historically. At one time, the US and Britain were bitter enemies. Now they are the closest of allies.

4) "How exactly do you "divide Muslims from ISIS"? With cupcakes". First, avoid actions that actively drive more to IS. Then, try to understand legitimate grievances that might drive Muslims to IS and attempt to resolve those issues where possible. Build bridges with non-IS-supporting Muslims. Make clear that our issues are not with Islam, but with IS who se version of Islam is not compatible with the practices of most Muslims. Most importantly, do not try to tell Muslims what they should do. Support those Muslims who are already doing the things that you suggest, but let them lead their own change. We have our own glass house on which we can focus our efforts. Let us fix our own problems before trying to tell them what they need to do.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you really believe Europe's Muslims are so fragile? I don't see mass Muslim insurrection in Europe ever happening on a mass scale. I've lived in Europe, I've been back several times in the past few years, I have relatives there, I read two of the languages fluently and a third somewhat, heck I even dated a few Algerians living in Europe (admittedly a while ago). Maybe a few thousand more might be turned to ISIS, maybe a few more terrorist attacks here and in Europe. But no way tens of thousands of Muslims in Europe are going to launch mass insurrection against their European states. That's ISIS' pipe dream but we don't need to buy into it.

Meanwhile, dissidents within Arab and Islamic countries are in jail or fear for their lives. Our silence hurts them rather than helping them.

It's like Chamberlain, always conciliating and missing the bigger picture. Are we really that scared? Are we really that impotent? Do we really see no way to handle alienation besides silence and winking at the anti-immigration folks? Like, I dunno, economic and social measures to reduce alienation? Is our silence really the only possible response? I'm sure you'll find the comparison to Chamberlain flattering, you're welcome.

I buried the lede. I believe that Islamic states and, yes, some parts of the theology need a reformation, yet we're all apparently too afraid of hurting feelings, or maybe really we're afraid of more terrorist attacks, to support the real Muslims who are calling for this reformation. After reading Islamic theologians and the Quran, I believe this, especially when it comes to rules for women and dealing with non-Muslims. You're going to tell me "there is no central Islamic theocracy like the Pope" but, leaving aside the wrong premise that the Pope speaks for all Christians, my answer is that one guy nailed a list of criticisms to a church wall and started a revolution. There are Muslims in the Islamic world doing this today, and they're getting killed and imprisoned for it, and our response is to sign a few petitions and... turn a blind eye. Whether it's from fear of hurting feelings or fear of provoking more terrorist attacks like ISIS thinks and it's comfortable to agree, I don't know.

Anonymous wrote:There are NO LEGITIMATE reasons to drive Muslims to Isis. Now I see your agenda. The rest sounds OK, but there is no legitimate reason to join a terror organization aimed at the overthrow of legitimate, reason based democracies. Sorry try again.

Anonymous wrote:There are NO LEGITIMATE reasons to drive Muslims to Isis. Now I see your agenda. The rest sounds OK, but there is no legitimate reason to join a terror organization aimed at the overthrow of legitimate, reason based democracies. Sorry try again.

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote: I agree that IS and Algerians living in Paris don't read DCUM. I said as much in an earlier post. I don't write for their benefit. Rather, I try to discuss things with the mostly US residents that read this forum. I am not going to rehash all of our earlier discussions -- feel free to go read the earlier threads if you have forgotten. If you believe that criticizing an entire religion is beneficial for achieving your goals -- whatever they are -- then by all means do it. I have never prevented you from doing it. IS has made clear that they welcome your doing exactly that. For myself, I advocate a smarter strategy. Instead of dividing Muslims from the West, we should divide Muslims from IS. I don't believe that you do that by insulting them.

Thanks for that. Another non-answer to my questions about whether Muslims are really as fragile as you think, whether ISIS is right that unkind words from DCUM are going to lead to mass Muslim uprisings in Europe, or whether conciliation has worked historically. Thanks also for the sinister references to "whatever my goals are", suggestions that I've forgotten earlier discussions, and assertions that your way is "smarter". (Note: do NOT call me butthurt again. I always point out your insults because I think it's better than getting down in the mud with you.)

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Why can't you just say that?

How exactly do you "divide Muslims from ISIS"? With cupcakes? I posted earlier that we need social and economic policies, so you don't own that, but it hasn't exactly worked in Europe either. Maybe they just need to try harder.... I still think, however, that as long as verses about how God wants you to kill unbelievers are allowed to stand without broad-based moral challenges, from within and outside Islam, then some future group like ISIS, the Taliban, or al Qaeda, maybe 50 years from now, will think they should act on these verses.

Signed, another fed up liberal

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Peaceful religion

And Egypt, an Islamic State, set bombers to bomb ISIS strong holds in response, yesterday/today. Muslim fighting Muslim, not religion.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A lot of this hate theology was preached in mosques in the west - a lot of Isis was recruited from the west - is there some educating to be done in these communities by their own community members?

There actually wasn't a lot -- but a few well-publicized cases. While reading about the Charlie Hebdo attackers, I learned that they had actually avoided mosques and organized religious activities because there was so much opposition to their beliefs in those communities. They were radicalized in people's living rooms.

It is interesting that the Charile Hebdo and Copenhagen attacks were committed by individuals who were born and raised in those countries. It would be very worthwhile to understand what is alienating such individuals from their society. Read this article about a guy who moved to Canada when he was 10:

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/02/14/imprisoned-terror-charges-fahim-ahmad-gives-insight-radicalization/

When he became radicalized, he couldn't even read the Quran. He was motivated by the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Note this in context of our current discussion:

There would be things like people calling you “terrorist,” or mistreating you for how you were dressed or being racially profiled by the police. Those happened to me and people around me. You start to feel like you don’t fit in, and the only way you can fit in is by maybe going away somewhere else, like maybe the country your parents came from, or maybe an “Islamic State” somewhere.

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote: I agree that IS and Algerians living in Paris don't read DCUM. I said as much in an earlier post. I don't write for their benefit. Rather, I try to discuss things with the mostly US residents that read this forum. I am not going to rehash all of our earlier discussions -- feel free to go read the earlier threads if you have forgotten. If you believe that criticizing an entire religion is beneficial for achieving your goals -- whatever they are -- then by all means do it. I have never prevented you from doing it. IS has made clear that they welcome your doing exactly that. For myself, I advocate a smarter strategy. Instead of dividing Muslims from the West, we should divide Muslims from IS. I don't believe that you do that by insulting them.

Thanks for that. Another non-answer to my questions about whether Muslims are really as fragile as you think, whether ISIS is right that unkind words from DCUM are going to lead to mass Muslim uprisings in Europe, or whether conciliation has worked historically. Thanks also for the sinister references to "whatever my goals are", suggestions that I've forgotten earlier discussions, and assertions that your way is "smarter". (Note: do NOT call me butthurt again. I always point out your insults because I think it's better than getting down in the mud with you.)

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Why can't you just say that?

How exactly do you "divide Muslims from ISIS"? With cupcakes? I posted earlier that we need social and economic policies, so you don't own that, but it hasn't exactly worked in Europe either. Maybe they just need to try harder.... I still think, however, that as long as verses about how God wants you to kill unbelievers are allowed to stand without broad-based moral challenges, from within and outside Islam, then some future group like ISIS, the Taliban, or al Qaeda, maybe 50 years from now, will think they should act on these verses.

Signed, another fed up liberal