Anonymous
Post 01/27/2015 07:07     Subject: My thoughts on different religions
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I've never understood why people who believe in God believe in Him in this way: That He has no real nature and reveals Himself as a schizophrenic God who tells different people different things all over the world. If you believe in a great God who made Heaven and Earth and all that is in it, how do you also suppose that He doesn't have a knowable nature and wouldn't take steps to reveal that true nature to us? And why do so many people presume that He doesn't care how He is acknowledged, thought of and worshipped?

I am a middle-aged male named David with no kids who likes being outdoors, reading and a good steak. If you said you were my friend and insisted on calling me Steve, invited me to your basement to watch child-rearing videos, bought me a dress for Christmas, and asked me out for tofu, I would say you probably don't really know me.

Why does that not also work for God?


what?

How do you know this about a god with whom you've never spoken?


Back to this. Yes, you can try to live a life as spelled out by the bible and therefore "know" God but in reality you have no proof that God ever did anything in your life. The reason many people think God is hands off is because they have never seen or heard his voice and can't explain horrific acts that happen on this earth. Believing that God is more in control of the afterworld than this world makes it easier to understand atrocities in the world today.
Anonymous
Post 01/27/2015 06:34     Subject: Re:My thoughts on different religions
OP again: If one believes that God is just, merciful and compassionate - which I certainly do - then it is inconceivable to me that someone who genuinely cannot bring himself/herself to become a Christian or someone who may never even have heard the Christian message or seen a bible, would somehow be denied salvation.

This is why I said in my OP, that I am perfectly content with letting God decide who is deserving of salvation and who is not.

Christianity is a path I have chosen to follow but it is not for me to decide for others what their fate will be if they follow a different religion.
Anonymous
Post 01/27/2015 05:20     Subject: Re:My thoughts on different religions
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

All this presumes thinking that the Bible is an authority. If people don't think there's a reason to accept the Bible's authority, then directly them to bible verses is not very useful.

This is not quite so. If you can look at all there is and conclude there's no God, is it not because you are unwilling to admit that there is a God who holds some authority over you? And can you deny that you sin? God gives us a foothold for faith. If, as one of the PP's previously stated, you are in sincere search of truth, you won't sidestep these two points, and if you are willing to humble yourself and admit there's a God and a moral law and that you break it, you will find this faith growing. Yes, I'm going to quote the Bible again, but God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.


You don't KNOW this.

If you're using the Bible as your source, it's ONE source written by men. How can you even think that God is talking directly to us?

gives grace to the humble - lol!
Anonymous
Post 01/27/2015 00:08     Subject: Re:My thoughts on different religions
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I feel that the Eastern religions - Hinduism, Buddhism. Shintoism etc - are more individual focussed and more spiritual. I feel that Western religions - Christianity, Judaism, Islam - is more society focussed and more ritualistic.

I also feel that if you truly believed in your God and His/Her omnipotence, then trying to convert people to your faith only means that you think that 1) either your God made mistakes in creating them and you have to fix that mistake or 2) your God is powerless to convert them Himself/Herself and needs minions to do it.



God did not make the mistake of creating them. They are making the mistake of turning from him and following whatever false religion, including no religion. But god does not give up on them! A lot can happen in one's lifetime.


And if it doesn't - God weeps? but, hey he gave you a chance -and it was your free will to choose eternal punishment. It sounds so contrived.

OP - are you listening? What do you think of all this?


Yes, I have been following the discussion ..... though it is only tangentially related to my OP.

As a Christian my views are very different from the PP who takes a very literal interpretation of some of the teachings of Jesus. My problem with those who take these teachings literally is that they are selective about the parts they want to emphasize. I have had discussions with others who hold a view similar to that of the PP and when I cite a different passage that is just as definitive, they skirt around the issue.

But to come back to my OP, I suspect the PP who has been quite rigid about Jesus being the only path to salvation, was born a Christian and that is the foundation for his belief system. Had he been born a Muslim, he would more than likely have been just as fervent in his views.

Some religions like Hinduism and Buddhism are less doctrinaire than the Abrahamic religions, are much more tolerant and take a broader view of faith. Interestingly neither of those religions seeks to proselytize.

Anonymous
Post 01/26/2015 23:23     Subject: Re:My thoughts on different religions
Anonymous wrote:I feel that the Eastern religions - Hinduism, Buddhism. Shintoism etc - are more individual focussed and more spiritual. I feel that Western religions - Christianity, Judaism, Islam - is more society focussed and more ritualistic.

I also feel that if you truly believed in your God and His/Her omnipotence, then trying to convert people to your faith only means that you think that 1) either your God made mistakes in creating them and you have to fix that mistake or 2) your God is powerless to convert them Himself/Herself and needs minions to do it.



what you say makes sense to me, but I can hear a Christian saying "but, Free will!"
Anonymous
Post 01/26/2015 23:22     Subject: Re:My thoughts on different religions
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I feel that the Eastern religions - Hinduism, Buddhism. Shintoism etc - are more individual focussed and more spiritual. I feel that Western religions - Christianity, Judaism, Islam - is more society focussed and more ritualistic.

I also feel that if you truly believed in your God and His/Her omnipotence, then trying to convert people to your faith only means that you think that 1) either your God made mistakes in creating them and you have to fix that mistake or 2) your God is powerless to convert them Himself/Herself and needs minions to do it.



God did not make the mistake of creating them. They are making the mistake of turning from him and following whatever false religion, including no religion. But god does not give up on them! A lot can happen in one's lifetime.


And if it doesn't - God weeps? but, hey he gave you a chance -and it was your free will to choose eternal punishment. It sounds so contrived.

OP - are you listening? What do you think of all this?
Anonymous
Post 01/26/2015 23:20     Subject: Re:My thoughts on different religions
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

All this presumes thinking that the Bible is an authority. If people don't think there's a reason to accept the Bible's authority, then directly them to bible verses is not very useful.

This is not quite so. If you can look at all there is and conclude there's no God, is it not because you are unwilling to admit that there is a God who holds some authority over you? And can you deny that you sin? God gives us a foothold for faith. If, as one of the PP's previously stated, you are in sincere search of truth, you won't sidestep these two points, and if you are willing to humble yourself and admit there's a God and a moral law and that you break it, you will find this faith growing. Yes, I'm going to quote the Bible again, but God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.


It sounds like you don't get that all of this presumes that the Bible has a great deal of authority. You're assuming the Bible -- obviously written by humans many centuries ago (as many academic biblical scholar will tell you) -- can be trusted to carry accurate instruction from God -- if only you're humble enough. Somehow, it doesn't sound humble at all.
Muslima
Post 01/26/2015 22:10     Subject: Re:My thoughts on different religions
Anonymous wrote:I feel that the Eastern religions - Hinduism, Buddhism. Shintoism etc - are more individual focussed and more spiritual. I feel that Western religions - Christianity, Judaism, Islam - is more society focussed and more ritualistic.

I also feel that if you truly believed in your God and His/Her omnipotence, then trying to convert people to your faith only means that you think that 1) either your God made mistakes in creating them and you have to fix that mistake or 2) your God is powerless to convert them Himself/Herself and needs minions to do it.



Not, in Islam. To the contrary, the Qu'ran is very clear that we can NOT convert people, even the Prophet (s.a.w) couldn't. We are told "And say, The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills , let him believe; and whoever wills . let him disbelieve." (Surat Al-Kahf 18:29) . All Muslims strongly believe that their duties are limited to the conveyance of the message. They also believe that embracing Islam is due to guidance, which only occurs by the grace of Allah. The Qur'an is very clear on this : "It is true you will not be able to guide everyone whom you love; but Allah guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance." The prophet's closest uncle, who he loved dearly never accepted Islam, despite of how much he pleaded and begged and he was extremely saddened by this and that's when Allah revealed that verse telling him pretty much, Oh Mohamed (s.aw.), you are just a messenger, your role is to convey the message, nothing more, nothing less.
Anonymous
Post 01/26/2015 21:47     Subject: Re:My thoughts on different religions
Anonymous wrote:I feel that the Eastern religions - Hinduism, Buddhism. Shintoism etc - are more individual focussed and more spiritual. I feel that Western religions - Christianity, Judaism, Islam - is more society focussed and more ritualistic.

I also feel that if you truly believed in your God and His/Her omnipotence, then trying to convert people to your faith only means that you think that 1) either your God made mistakes in creating them and you have to fix that mistake or 2) your God is powerless to convert them Himself/Herself and needs minions to do it.



God did not make the mistake of creating them. They are making the mistake of turning from him and following whatever false religion, including no religion. But god does not give up on them! A lot can happen in one's lifetime.
Anonymous
Post 01/26/2015 21:43     Subject: Re:My thoughts on different religions
I feel that the Eastern religions - Hinduism, Buddhism. Shintoism etc - are more individual focussed and more spiritual. I feel that Western religions - Christianity, Judaism, Islam - is more society focussed and more ritualistic.

I also feel that if you truly believed in your God and His/Her omnipotence, then trying to convert people to your faith only means that you think that 1) either your God made mistakes in creating them and you have to fix that mistake or 2) your God is powerless to convert them Himself/Herself and needs minions to do it.

Anonymous
Post 01/26/2015 21:35     Subject: Re:My thoughts on different religions
Anonymous wrote:

All this presumes thinking that the Bible is an authority. If people don't think there's a reason to accept the Bible's authority, then directly them to bible verses is not very useful.

This is not quite so. If you can look at all there is and conclude there's no God, is it not because you are unwilling to admit that there is a God who holds some authority over you? And can you deny that you sin? God gives us a foothold for faith. If, as one of the PP's previously stated, you are in sincere search of truth, you won't sidestep these two points, and if you are willing to humble yourself and admit there's a God and a moral law and that you break it, you will find this faith growing. Yes, I'm going to quote the Bible again, but God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.
Anonymous
Post 01/26/2015 21:19     Subject: Re:My thoughts on different religions
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
It sounds like you have trouble thinking that God would condemn good people of other faiths to hell, so you've found a way to rationalize a way they can be spared that fate.

Jesus's disciples would sometimes say, after a tough lesson, "This is a hard saying. Who can accept it?" But something being difficult to accept doesn't make it not true. The PP correctly looks to Scripture to answer his question for a hard saying. And I don't want to put words in PP's mouth, but I read "to partially be able to live with this" to mean that this passage wasn't the totality of PP's basis for believing it, not that it's not believable. But even the hard things require some faith. God rewards those who believe Him, and this goes for the good, easy stuff and the good but harder stuff equally.

-----

The PP, and thank you, yes that is what I meant. Following Jesus does require swallowing some pills that can be hard to go down. As a minister once told me, we have to learn to not only live with, but to grow in, that "tension." It is a fascinating process. And yes, Mulisma, from several posts above, Jesus is the answer for you too. I pray that one day you will discover that.


And what happens to her if she doesn't discover that Jesus is the answer?


But she will! Sorry if that sounds flip, but if Jesus' message is true -- and it is -- then it is true for everyone. You, Muslima, all of DCUM, etc. Now to be clear: this does not mean that one simply saying, Hey Jesus, if you're real, prove it to me, and waiting for the lightening bolt to wrap this up neatly in the next 2 hours. I believe that we must truly be seeking and get ourselves out of the way first, for God to work in our lives. Giving up that much-revered personal agenda can be hard and is a struggle in and of itself.


------

Are you saying that you think that even people who have lived their lives as devout practitioners of another religion will accept Jesus sometime before they die and thus receive the reward of eternal life promised by Christianity?


No, not at all. I am saying that true seekers will inevitably be led to Christ, because He alone is the Truth and the Way to God. But many do reject this, for whatever reason, convinced that they will find some other happiness or salvation outside of him. God does give us free choice.


So if people aren't inevitably led to Christ, it's because they were not true seekers? Is a true seeker by default anyone who is led to Christ, and if someone is not led to Christ, does that mean they are doing something wrong, even if they tried to believe and it just didn't make sense to them?


See, this is what is so hard to explain to non-believers (and I mean that with all respect); even our language is different! You don't discover God through Christ by "trying to believe." You don't just sit down one day and say, OK, I'm going to believe. Believe. Believe. Believe! As if you are trying to talk yourself into something that doesn't make sense. A true seeker is anyone who sincerely seeks the truth (like I am, and it sounds like you may be open to) and is -- this is important -- willing to put aside his/ her personal agenda/ biases/ political convictions, whatever -- to honestly look for God and to allow Him to work in our life. (Jesus did basically say, leave it all behind and follow me.) Yes, that is a tall order, and something that I for one fail at on a regular basis.

And at that point, what do you do? You do exactly what you are doing now. You start asking questions -- lots of them, preferably to learned people who are theologically grounded in the word of God. You can read some great books -- I highly recommend C.S. Lewis, for example, and G.K. Chesterton. They are fantastic writers of the last century who not only understand this human struggle, but have a gift for putting it into words. You pray -- sincerely, often, and more than once -- asking God to reveal himself to you. You find others to associate with, preferably at a church that teaches the Bible, as Jesus preaches over and over about the need to worship God in community. This is not a journey that is meant to be taken alone! And then you pay attention and listen and open yourself to seeing things in new ways. For me, one instance that I remember clearly was when I was studying cellular biology in college. I was simply overwhelmed by seeing up close the miracle of life that God has created. It led me to a whole career of study in science and I am continually awed by it.

Oh, and perhaps most important, you read the Bible. Start with the Gospels of the New Testament. Ask God to teach you something about yourself. I predict you will be amazed!

I would like to second this PP's thoughts. I hope he or she won't mind. Jesus in Mark 1:15 said, "Repent and believe the Gospel." (My emphasis) Repenting is putting aside your previous ideas how to save yourself and believing God. Romans 1:18-20 says that God has revealed Himself through His creation, and many of us reject this revelation and instead "hold the truth in unrighteousness." Basically, it says we don't seek God because we want to define our own way. In Isaiah 1:18, God says, "Let us reason together, though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be white as snow." This means that God is willing to reason with you, and that you need to confess to God that you sin and you're unworthy of Him. And Hebrews 11:6 says that without faith it is impossible to please God. God requires that you believe Him, that He is who He says He is, that you're a sinner, and His son Jesus Christ died for you. If, as the PP says, you are truly seeking God and seeking truth, you will find Christ. But if you're just trying to be "spiritual" and do find whatever path you think leads to God, you probably won't.


All this presumes thinking that the Bible is an authority. If people don't think there's a reason to accept the Bible's authority, then directly them to bible verses is not very useful.
Anonymous
Post 01/26/2015 21:04     Subject: Re:My thoughts on different religions
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
It sounds like you have trouble thinking that God would condemn good people of other faiths to hell, so you've found a way to rationalize a way they can be spared that fate.

Jesus's disciples would sometimes say, after a tough lesson, "This is a hard saying. Who can accept it?" But something being difficult to accept doesn't make it not true. The PP correctly looks to Scripture to answer his question for a hard saying. And I don't want to put words in PP's mouth, but I read "to partially be able to live with this" to mean that this passage wasn't the totality of PP's basis for believing it, not that it's not believable. But even the hard things require some faith. God rewards those who believe Him, and this goes for the good, easy stuff and the good but harder stuff equally.

-----

The PP, and thank you, yes that is what I meant. Following Jesus does require swallowing some pills that can be hard to go down. As a minister once told me, we have to learn to not only live with, but to grow in, that "tension." It is a fascinating process. And yes, Mulisma, from several posts above, Jesus is the answer for you too. I pray that one day you will discover that.


And what happens to her if she doesn't discover that Jesus is the answer?


But she will! Sorry if that sounds flip, but if Jesus' message is true -- and it is -- then it is true for everyone. You, Muslima, all of DCUM, etc. Now to be clear: this does not mean that one simply saying, Hey Jesus, if you're real, prove it to me, and waiting for the lightening bolt to wrap this up neatly in the next 2 hours. I believe that we must truly be seeking and get ourselves out of the way first, for God to work in our lives. Giving up that much-revered personal agenda can be hard and is a struggle in and of itself.


------

Are you saying that you think that even people who have lived their lives as devout practitioners of another religion will accept Jesus sometime before they die and thus receive the reward of eternal life promised by Christianity?


No, not at all. I am saying that true seekers will inevitably be led to Christ, because He alone is the Truth and the Way to God. But many do reject this, for whatever reason, convinced that they will find some other happiness or salvation outside of him. God does give us free choice.


So if people aren't inevitably led to Christ, it's because they were not true seekers? Is a true seeker by default anyone who is led to Christ, and if someone is not led to Christ, does that mean they are doing something wrong, even if they tried to believe and it just didn't make sense to them?


See, this is what is so hard to explain to non-believers (and I mean that with all respect); even our language is different! You don't discover God through Christ by "trying to believe." You don't just sit down one day and say, OK, I'm going to believe. Believe. Believe. Believe! As if you are trying to talk yourself into something that doesn't make sense. A true seeker is anyone who sincerely seeks the truth (like I am, and it sounds like you may be open to) and is -- this is important -- willing to put aside his/ her personal agenda/ biases/ political convictions, whatever -- to honestly look for God and to allow Him to work in our life. (Jesus did basically say, leave it all behind and follow me.) Yes, that is a tall order, and something that I for one fail at on a regular basis.

And at that point, what do you do? You do exactly what you are doing now. You start asking questions -- lots of them, preferably to learned people who are theologically grounded in the word of God. You can read some great books -- I highly recommend C.S. Lewis, for example, and G.K. Chesterton. They are fantastic writers of the last century who not only understand this human struggle, but have a gift for putting it into words. You pray -- sincerely, often, and more than once -- asking God to reveal himself to you. You find others to associate with, preferably at a church that teaches the Bible, as Jesus preaches over and over about the need to worship God in community. This is not a journey that is meant to be taken alone! And then you pay attention and listen and open yourself to seeing things in new ways. For me, one instance that I remember clearly was when I was studying cellular biology in college. I was simply overwhelmed by seeing up close the miracle of life that God has created. It led me to a whole career of study in science and I am continually awed by it.

Oh, and perhaps most important, you read the Bible. Start with the Gospels of the New Testament. Ask God to teach you something about yourself. I predict you will be amazed!

I would like to second this PP's thoughts. I hope he or she won't mind. Jesus in Mark 1:15 said, "Repent and believe the Gospel." (My emphasis) Repenting is putting aside your previous ideas how to save yourself and believing God. Romans 1:18-20 says that God has revealed Himself through His creation, and many of us reject this revelation and instead "hold the truth in unrighteousness." Basically, it says we don't seek God because we want to define our own way. In Isaiah 1:18, God says, "Let us reason together, though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be white as snow." This means that God is willing to reason with you, and that you need to confess to God that you sin and you're unworthy of Him. And Hebrews 11:6 says that without faith it is impossible to please God. God requires that you believe Him, that He is who He says He is, that you're a sinner, and His son Jesus Christ died for you. If, as the PP says, you are truly seeking God and seeking truth, you will find Christ. But if you're just trying to be "spiritual" and do find whatever path you think leads to God, you probably won't.
Anonymous
Post 01/26/2015 20:56     Subject: Re:My thoughts on different religions
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:The New Testament does say that Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the light." Although I am christian I would never take this literally word for word. For one thing, this is a recollection of what Jesus said. For another it's in translation--am not sure the original would seem so dogmatic. And finally, it should not be quoted and used as though it is legislative text--Jesus was not a lawyer. It is enough for me that Jesus said God, of whatever person, is the way, the truth, and the light.


Only in Washington would someone read this into this verse of Scripture.


As they say, in Washington there are so many lawyers that even the traffic signs have fine print.
Anonymous
Post 01/26/2015 20:42     Subject: Re:My thoughts on different religions
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
The PP, and thank you, yes that is what I meant. Following Jesus does require swallowing some pills that can be hard to go down. As a minister once told me, we have to learn to not only live with, but to grow in, that "tension." It is a fascinating process. And yes, Mulisma, from several posts above, Jesus is the answer for you too. I pray that one day you will discover that.


But why do we "have to?" It seems like it's only if we are determined that we have to believe that certain things in the bible are factual.


Not at all. There are plenty of things in the Bible that can be proven true from a historic, archeological, secular purpose. Perhaps just enough to provide clues to make man dig deeper into the Bible, to discover for himself that all of it is actually true. And you are addressing this "tension" (that's my word; there are probably better words) as a bad thing. In fact, it is one of the gifts. The longer you follow Christ, the more you realize that what you are battling internally is yourself -- not God.


Shame on you -- there's enough historic and archeological information about the bible to indicate that it is a compilation of stories written by humans. If the Bible has spriritual meaning for you fine, but please don't spread misinformation about it.