Anonymous
Post 01/14/2015 13:35     Subject: Re: Why do liberals rush to defend islam?
Anonymous wrote:Liberals are conflicted. They are generally cynical about religious activity. But Islam is practiced by "oppressed" people, in some places, so there's that. Hard to square the condemnations of the war on women in this country with the generally sexist and medieval-ish treatment of women in Arab countries. It's a type of cognitive dissonance. But you won't lose popular points for holding these views (or posing as such).


I consider myself to be a political liberal and a practicing Catholic. And while I will not condemn an entire religion, I will speak out against oppressive and barbaric practices that are engaged in in the name of that religion. I also speak out in my own faith community about practices that are damaging or contradictory - like restricting access to birth control that could prevent the need for millions of abortions. I have no cognitive dissonance about any of this whatsoever.
Anonymous
Post 01/14/2015 13:31     Subject: Why do liberals rush to defend islam?
I have never met a Muslim in America who feels they need a Muslim government. Most Muslims I know much prefer the US because you are free to worship in whatever manner you choose.

FWIW I'm married to a Muslim and have tons of Muslim friends, both those born here and immigrants from many different cultures. The ability to worship freely is about the only common denominator they have.
Anonymous
Post 01/14/2015 13:25     Subject: Why do liberals rush to defend islam?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
jsteele wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I am as liberal as you can get, and I do not defend Islam. I agree with Sam Harris that Islam is the mother lode of bad ideas. No matter how you turn it, the basic principles of Islam are not those of a tolerant religion.

I don't defend fundamentalist Christianity either. Both religions have, at their very base, very bad ideas. That doesn't mean that you can't water them down, edit them or ignore the ideas/commandments that you don't like and consider yourself a member of that religion.

What it does mean is that, with very little effort, you can find in both religious texts plenty of justification to enslave, murder or obliterate anyone that disrespects you.


Why do you qualify Christianity in a manner that you don't for Islam?


I'm not that poster, but I could have written that post. I think fundamentalist Christianity is intolerant in a way that's inconsistent with a straight reading of the gospels. Jesus never talked about homosexuals, he encouraged Martha to leave the kitchen and come hear his teachings, and so on. Fundamentalist Christianity relies on Old Testament attitudes towards women and gays that I consider the gospels to have abandoned at the same time they abandoned dietary laws. Also, the gospels are all about avoiding war, loving your enemy, and so on. I've read the Quran from front to back (in translation, but no help for that), and I saw very different messages about the umma versus everybody else.


I guess I'll add what I see as problematic about Islam. I'm still thinking about this, but at the moment my concerns have little to do with banning religious expression like the niqab, and little to do with divorce or other laws, if that's what people freely decide to live by.

Instead it's this idea of theocracy: that a good Muslim needs to live by sharia law, and for that you need a Muslim government. Wanting to implement sharia law opens the door to theocracies, and there is nothing good about theocracies IMO. The problem with the CH assassinations was partly a reaction to bigotry, poverty, and the rest. But the CH attack was also based partly this idea that France's secular values are meritless just because they're not sharia law. (Along with the romanticism of a caliphate that never existed like they think it did, but that's a digression.) Of course, Christianity had horrible theocracies for much of history, but the Enlightenment saw a move towards taking the "render unto Caesar..." line as calling for a separation of church and state, and you saw this 200 years ago in the US constitution, even if we're still fighting conservatives for gay marriage.

I know that millions of Muslims area already there, and that they appreciate democracy and secular values. But the caliphate/theocracy/caliphate idea persists, and whatever you think of religious expression like the niqab, the idea that there's only one valid form of government, and that's a theocracy with sharia law, seems pernicious to me. I can't remember what's in the Quran about establishing an Islamic government, apart from various elements of sharia law itself. So I guess that's my next line of inquiry as I think about this.


I really feel like you nailed it. I think the issue is one of separation of church and state, which is not a concept that fundamentalist Muslims seem to either respect or understand. So they will never understand how anyone - Muslim or otherwise - can reconcile being a good adherent of your religion while tolerating aspects of a free democracy that are in opposition to theological teachings of the faith. Not only do they refuse to understand, they refuse to accept this, as demonstrated by their murderous actions. In the West, conservative Christians voice their opposition with speech and political action. Fundamentalists who engage in murder (i.e. clinic bombings, etc) are roundly condemned, not tacitly accepted.
Anonymous
Post 01/14/2015 13:17     Subject: Re: Why do liberals rush to defend islam?
Anonymous wrote:



humans created by God, do not share "common descent" from ape-like creatures
And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air --Genesis 2:19




These two ideas are not mutually exclusive. God could have created humans who descended from a last universal ancestor (shared with other primates). After all, doesn't the bible say animals were created before humans? There are several lines of evidence that prove this line of descent. DNA/genetics, comparative anatomy, fossil records, and modern day experiments with selective breeding.

I've never understood why evolution freaks out Christians.
Anonymous
Post 01/14/2015 11:48     Subject: Re: Why do liberals rush to defend islam?
Liberals defend Islam because just as liberalism (its creed basically being 'do whatever you want if it feels good and does not seem to hurt anyone') is an enemy of Jesus Christ so is Islam an enemy of Christianity.
The saying "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" applies here.

Christianity, the source its teachings being the bible, contradicts liberalism which at its source is atheism. Sure, there are liberal churches but they are mostly social clubs without holiness or righteousness, just a bunch of people sitting together feeling good about themselves because they feel good about being in a pretty building and hearing pretty hymns.

marriage only between man and woman

And [Jesus] answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. --Matthew 19:4-6

Jesus is quoting Genesis 2:24 here which means that Jesus took the sayings of the bible seriously. It isn't a bunch of metaphors or opinionated scribblings.

humans created by God, do not share "common descent" from ape-like creatures
And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air --Genesis 2:19

the use of clear, decisive speech, not vague, gray "weasel room" words to allow yourself an out to lie and deceive:
But let your statement be, ‘Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no’; anything beyond these is [al]of evil.--Matthew 5:37

Liberals are notorious for using vague speech, such as Clinton saying "It all depends on what the meaning of is, is". So infuriating, like trying to nail jello to a wall.


Anonymous
Post 01/14/2015 11:05     Subject: Re: Why do liberals rush to defend islam?
Here is an excellent article concerning this:

http://www.returnofkings.com/52882/why-does-the-left-support-radical-muslims
Anonymous
Post 01/14/2015 09:47     Subject: Why do liberals rush to defend islam?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:They hate America . Anything that weakens America or individual liberty, they are for. Christianity was around the whole time the USA became the greatest and most powerful/free country on the planet. Liberals instinctively hate the empowerment of the individual ... Islam helps destroy the individual.


1. Islam isn't a "they"
2. Islam was also "around the whole time" - truly not sure what you mean by that
3. Liberals celebrate the empowerment of the individual - we instinctively hate systems that oppress individuals
4. You know nothing about Islam


Look at all the people who came here from Iran after the fall of the Shah and call themselves Persians. People from Turkey who live here. I could continue but I guess a good analogy is in Catholicism- people and groups behaving violently under Islam are like the obsolete Spanish Inquisition and the Medieval Inquisition.

Christianity has evolved -Martin Luther, protestants etc. Judaism has evolved.
Anonymous
Post 01/14/2015 09:39     Subject: Re: Why do liberals rush to defend islam?
Neville Chamberlain is all you need to know about liberals. Liberals are about appeasement, of "trying to get along" whatever the cost. However, there appears to be an exception: if your authority on faith and morals is the bible and upon Jesus Christ then there is no getting along, only censorship, the gulag, work camps, sensitivity training, and "rehabilitation".
Anonymous
Post 01/13/2015 20:45     Subject: Why do liberals rush to defend islam?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Cnn is deferential to religions that will kill them. Let's just be honest , they are scared. Why don't they just admit that they are too frightened to speak so we can get a handle on what the situation really is?
So does that mean that CNN is deferential to Christianity because they think Christians will kill them? Or have you seen CNN portray Christ in one way or another yourself, meaning CNN is not afraid of Christians? Because I have yet to see Christ on CNN at all. You're really not making much sense.



not pp, but will say that CNN has shown Jesus on the cross in a jar of urine, clearly not respectful to many. It will not show a cartoon of Mohammed holding a sign because it offends some groups. That could be seen as hypocritical.

So pp is pointing out that CNN is more careful of those offended about art of Mohammed than those offended about art of Jesus Christ.



They are so frightened that they actually make a official statement that they will never show an image that can even be interpreted by anybody to be offensive. That means no images whatsoever.

The Muslims sure know how to put liberals in their place.
Anonymous
Post 01/13/2015 20:00     Subject: Re: Why do liberals rush to defend islam?
Liberals are conflicted. They are generally cynical about religious activity. But Islam is practiced by "oppressed" people, in some places, so there's that. Hard to square the condemnations of the war on women in this country with the generally sexist and medieval-ish treatment of women in Arab countries. It's a type of cognitive dissonance. But you won't lose popular points for holding these views (or posing as such).
Anonymous
Post 01/13/2015 19:54     Subject: Why do liberals rush to defend islam?
I don't defend Islam. I support the right to freedom of speech and belief. A lot of the problems in this world are down to misunderstanding and ignorance. So more talking and more discussion is warranted, rather than less.

Like JSteele above, I have lived overseas for many years and get a lot of "ignorant" questions. I believe in giving people open and honest answers because after all, I would rather set them straight than have them continue to believe misconceptions.

I don't agree with PC for this reason as I think it shuts down communication and that is the last thing we need. Let ignorance and foolishness show its face openly and get refuted or mocked but don't let it multiply unabated in the shadows.
Anonymous
Post 01/13/2015 18:15     Subject: Why do liberals rush to defend islam?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Cnn is deferential to religions that will kill them. Let's just be honest , they are scared. Why don't they just admit that they are too frightened to speak so we can get a handle on what the situation really is?
So does that mean that CNN is deferential to Christianity because they think Christians will kill them? Or have you seen CNN portray Christ in one way or another yourself, meaning CNN is not afraid of Christians? Because I have yet to see Christ on CNN at all. You're really not making much sense.



not pp, but will say that CNN has shown Jesus on the cross in a jar of urine, clearly not respectful to many. It will not show a cartoon of Mohammed holding a sign because it offends some groups. That could be seen as hypocritical.

So pp is pointing out that CNN is more careful of those offended about art of Mohammed than those offended about art of Jesus Christ.

Anonymous
Post 01/13/2015 17:26     Subject: Why do liberals rush to defend islam?
Anonymous wrote:Cnn is deferential to religions that will kill them. Let's just be honest , they are scared. Why don't they just admit that they are too frightened to speak so we can get a handle on what the situation really is?
So does that mean that CNN is deferential to Christianity because they think Christians will kill them? Or have you seen CNN portray Christ in one way or another yourself, meaning CNN is not afraid of Christians? Because I have yet to see Christ on CNN at all. You're really not making much sense.

Anonymous
Post 01/13/2015 17:24     Subject: Why do liberals rush to defend islam?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:They hate America . Anything that weakens America or individual liberty, they are for. Christianity was around the whole time the USA became the greatest and most powerful/free country on the planet. Liberals instinctively hate the empowerment of the individual ... Islam helps destroy the individual.
What will destroy America are blanket stereotypes about whole groups of people. You can't really defend the country if you have difficulty determining who the enemy really is. Casting whole groups of people as the enemy will keep you from seeing the true villains among them. Ironic that you should champion the empowerment of the individual but refuse to see people as individuals yourself. That hurts America more than it helps.


You just described liberals grouping people into ...
Blacks , Hispanics , gays/lesbians / angry white men / war on women

No individuals . Just groups that need government help or government punishment , Islam and liberalism cannot tolerate too much individualism with too little centralized control. They are natural allies.
So you're a liberal now because you can't see people as individuals (as evidenced by your post at the top)? That's very odd thinking on your part. Seriously, reflect for a minute -- you're making blanket statements about liberals and Muslims and yet you're opposed to treating people as groups? Hmm....pot calling the kettle black I think.
Anonymous
Post 01/13/2015 17:10     Subject: Why do liberals rush to defend islam?
Cnn is deferential to religions that will kill them. Let's just be honest , they are scared. Why don't they just admit that they are too frightened to speak so we can get a handle on what the situation really is?