Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well if you are right that there is no God & no Heaven, believers lose nothing. However, if we are right that there IS a God & Heaven, you'd be in big trouble.

If we atheists are right, then all of us win by having the eternal peace of nothingness rather than a boring eternity in Heaven or a frightful eternity in Hell.

Nah. If a person truly believes in God and Heaven, chances are they are not going to Hell. Heaven has never been described by anyone as "boring" and I don't think I have ever heard of "nothingness" equated with peace. Peace is a positive affect and nothingness is the absence of positive or negative. And you didn't answer the question. What if there IS a God and a Heaven?

Not PP, but I can answer.

If there is a God in heaven, and he is the angry hell-creating God that Christian conservatives believe in, then I don't want any part of him or his heaven. I will gladly join the rebellious angels in their war. That guy is a monster.

If there is a God in heaven and he is not the angry hell-creating monster, then he will understand my lack of belief. He will also look to my over-all behavior, not my professed faith. If the merciful God is true, he understands that atheism is a mistake and like other mistakes, he will forgive it.

I don't think it's a mistake, though.

He will forgive if you lacked the ability to reason or did not have access to knowledge of Him. But if its willful defiance or from a place of arrogance, then no, I don't think He will forgive. If you spent time mocking or insulting the intelligence of believers, I don't know that would be forgiven.
And to punish wrongdoing does not make God a monster. Why should God be a pushover? It simply makes God fair. And if you realized your error in denying God, what recourse will you have at that point?

Lol, you speak of God as if he's/she's just some average joe in a judges outfit. "Charlie, you took too many cookies out of the jar, AGAIN. It's simply not fair and you should know better. That's it your damned."

And your notion that a good God must be so forgiving so as to be a pushover may just be wishful thinking to get a quick pardon.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well if you are right that there is no God & no Heaven, believers lose nothing. However, if we are right that there IS a God & Heaven, you'd be in big trouble.

If we atheists are right, then all of us win by having the eternal peace of nothingness rather than a boring eternity in Heaven or a frightful eternity in Hell.

Nah. If a person truly believes in God and Heaven, chances are they are not going to Hell. Heaven has never been described by anyone as "boring" and I don't think I have ever heard of "nothingness" equated with peace. Peace is a positive affect and nothingness is the absence of positive or negative. And you didn't answer the question. What if there IS a God and a Heaven?

Not PP, but I can answer.

If there is a God in heaven, and he is the angry hell-creating God that Christian conservatives believe in, then I don't want any part of him or his heaven. I will gladly join the rebellious angels in their war. That guy is a monster.

If there is a God in heaven and he is not the angry hell-creating monster, then he will understand my lack of belief. He will also look to my over-all behavior, not my professed faith. If the merciful God is true, he understands that atheism is a mistake and like other mistakes, he will forgive it.

I don't think it's a mistake, though.

He will forgive if you lacked the ability to reason or did not have access to knowledge of Him. But if its willful defiance or from a place of arrogance, then no, I don't think He will forgive. If you spent time mocking or insulting the intelligence of believers, I don't know that would be forgiven.
And to punish wrongdoing does not make God a monster. Why should God be a pushover? It simply makes God fair. And if you realized your error in denying God, what recourse will you have at that point?

Lol, you speak of God as if he's/she's just some average joe in a judges outfit. "Charlie, you took too many cookies out of the jar, AGAIN. It's simply not fair and you should know better. That's it your damned."

Anonymous wrote:...
Belief in God or the afterlife is not a fairy tale for people who are afraid of the dark. Its based on the recognition that our universe is so perfect and ordered that it very existence is a miracle of creation. It is a mastery of artistry. Who but a God can create it?

The obvious answer, which any scientist, any atheist, and probably most believers acknowledge, is that we don't know. We may believe one thing or another, but those who mistake the fact that there is a wondrous, unfathomable, order to the universe for proof that the biblical story is true use the word "proof" with a meaning different from the rest of us. That's fine when you speak to others with similar vocabulary, but there si no point talking if our words mean different things

Within the next 20 yrs there will be more information available about dark matter. For people like disbelievers, science must prove God. For believers, the proof is already there. It's in the perfect order of the universe, the creation of the stars, the miracle of a life giving sun, the perfect union of the male and female species that allows for procreation, the cycle of life, the perfection of the female body that allows a newborn to be nourished in its earliest years with the most perfect nutrition, the miracle of embryology, the amazing diversity of plant and animal life, the healing power of plant extracts for many major illnesses and disease, the proof of both adult and children's near death experience, the proof we now have of dark matter, which proves a very simple point: just because we can not SEE something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

There is a whole unseen world that exists just like dark matter exists. It takes faith to embrace this idea. If you want hard data, you will have to either wait for science to prove God or you will have to research and engage in deductive reasoning.

Belief in God or the afterlife is not a fairy tale for people who are afraid of the dark. Its based on the recognition that our universe is so perfect and ordered that it very existence is a miracle of creation. It is a mastery of artistry. Who but a God can create it?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well if you are right that there is no God & no Heaven, believers lose nothing. However, if we are right that there IS a God & Heaven, you'd be in big trouble.

If we atheists are right, then all of us win by having the eternal peace of nothingness rather than a boring eternity in Heaven or a frightful eternity in Hell.

Nah. If a person truly believes in God and Heaven, chances are they are not going to Hell. Heaven has never been described by anyone as "boring" and I don't think I have ever heard of "nothingness" equated with peace. Peace is a positive affect and nothingness is the absence of positive or negative. And you didn't answer the question. What if there IS a God and a Heaven?

Not PP, but I can answer.

If there is a God in heaven, and he is the angry hell-creating God that Christian conservatives believe in, then I don't want any part of him or his heaven. I will gladly join the rebellious angels in their war. That guy is a monster.

If there is a God in heaven and he is not the angry hell-creating monster, then he will understand my lack of belief. He will also look to my over-all behavior, not my professed faith. If the merciful God is true, he understands that atheism is a mistake and like other mistakes, he will forgive it.

I don't think it's a mistake, though.

He will forgive if you lacked the ability to reason or did not have access to knowledge of Him. But if its willful defiance or from a place of arrogance, then no, I don't think He will forgive. If you spent time mocking or insulting the intelligence of believers, I don't know that would be forgiven.
And to punish wrongdoing does not make God a monster. Why should God be a pushover? It simply makes God fair. And if you realized your error in denying God, what recourse will you have at that point?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well if you are right that there is no God & no Heaven, believers lose nothing. However, if we are right that there IS a God & Heaven, you'd be in big trouble.

pulling out pascal's wager again? in the 21st century when we know so much more about how the world works, it's kind of pitiful.

And yes, believers do lose something if there's no heaven -- they miss out on living the one life they have to the fullest, thinking they have an eternity ahead of them, when it's so obvious that their fate is the same as every other living thing on earth - you're born, you live, you die. they spend a bunch of time worshiping a god that doesn't exist

Believers definitely lose something. They pour money and time and cognitive effort into something that is a lie. When I look at just the amount of money spent on church buildings in the US, I find it to be a shocking waste of resources.

One doesn't need a church to worship. Something tells me even if a single church did not exist, you'd still complain that the amount of time spent in prayer was a colossal waste. There is no cognitive "effort" in believing. Do you put cognitive effort into breathing? Its the same with belief. Its as natural and effortless as breathing.

FruminousBandersnatch wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well if you are right that there is no God & no Heaven, believers lose nothing. However, if we are right that there IS a God & Heaven, you'd be in big trouble.

pulling out pascal's wager again? in the 21st century when we know so much more about how the world works, it's kind of pitiful.

And yes, believers do lose something if there's no heaven -- they miss out on living the one life they have to the fullest, thinking they have an eternity ahead of them, when it's so obvious that their fate is the same as every other living thing on earth - you're born, you live, you die. they spend a bunch of time worshiping a god that doesn't exist

That's hilarious that you think believers can't or don't live life to the fullest. But you still didn't answer the question. What if there was a God and a Heaven, what then?

You prove there's a God and a Heaven and I'll freely admit I was wrong.

I don't need to. If you want proof, you go look for it. It's there.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well if you are right that there is no God & no Heaven, believers lose nothing. However, if we are right that there IS a God & Heaven, you'd be in big trouble.

If we atheists are right, then all of us win by having the eternal peace of nothingness rather than a boring eternity in Heaven or a frightful eternity in Hell.

Nah. If a person truly believes in God and Heaven, chances are they are not going to Hell. Heaven has never been described by anyone as "boring" and I don't think I have ever heard of "nothingness" equated with peace. Peace is a positive affect and nothingness is the absence of positive or negative. And you didn't answer the question. What if there IS a God and a Heaven?

Not PP, but I can answer.

If there is a God in heaven, and he is the angry hell-creating God that Christian conservatives believe in, then I don't want any part of him or his heaven. I will gladly join the rebellious angels in their war. That guy is a monster.

If there is a God in heaven and he is not the angry hell-creating monster, then he will understand my lack of belief. He will also look to my over-all behavior, not my professed faith. If the merciful God is true, he understands that atheism is a mistake and like other mistakes, he will forgive it.

I don't think it's a mistake, though.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well if you are right that there is no God & no Heaven, believers lose nothing. However, if we are right that there IS a God & Heaven, you'd be in big trouble.

pulling out pascal's wager again? in the 21st century when we know so much more about how the world works, it's kind of pitiful.

And yes, believers do lose something if there's no heaven -- they miss out on living the one life they have to the fullest, thinking they have an eternity ahead of them, when it's so obvious that their fate is the same as every other living thing on earth - you're born, you live, you die. they spend a bunch of time worshiping a god that doesn't exist

Believers definitely lose something. They pour money and time and cognitive effort into something that is a lie. When I look at just the amount of money spent on church buildings in the US, I find it to be a shocking waste of resources.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well if you are right that there is no God & no Heaven, believers lose nothing. However, if we are right that there IS a God & Heaven, you'd be in big trouble.

If we atheists are right, then all of us win by having the eternal peace of nothingness rather than a boring eternity in Heaven or a frightful eternity in Hell.

What kind of 'big trouble"?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well if you are right that there is no God & no Heaven, believers lose nothing. However, if we are right that there IS a God & Heaven, you'd be in big trouble.

pulling out pascal's wager again? in the 21st century when we know so much more about how the world works, it's kind of pitiful.

And yes, believers do lose something if there's no heaven -- they miss out on living the one life they have to the fullest, thinking they have an eternity ahead of them, when it's so obvious that their fate is the same as every other living thing on earth - you're born, you live, you die. they spend a bunch of time worshiping a god that doesn't exist

That's hilarious that you think believers can't or don't live life to the fullest. But you still didn't answer the question. What if there was a God and a Heaven, what then?

You prove there's a God and a Heaven and I'll freely admit I was wrong.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well if you are right that there is no God & no Heaven, believers lose nothing. However, if we are right that there IS a God & Heaven, you'd be in big trouble.

If we atheists are right, then all of us win by having the eternal peace of nothingness rather than a boring eternity in Heaven or a frightful eternity in Hell.

Nah. If a person truly believes in God and Heaven, chances are they are not going to Hell. Heaven has never been described by anyone as "boring" and I don't think I have ever heard of "nothingness" equated with peace. Peace is a positive affect and nothingness is the absence of positive or negative. And you didn't answer the question. What if there IS a God and a Heaven?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well if you are right that there is no God & no Heaven, believers lose nothing. However, if we are right that there IS a God & Heaven, you'd be in big trouble.

pulling out pascal's wager again? in the 21st century when we know so much more about how the world works, it's kind of pitiful.

And yes, believers do lose something if there's no heaven -- they miss out on living the one life they have to the fullest, thinking they have an eternity ahead of them, when it's so obvious that their fate is the same as every other living thing on earth - you're born, you live, you die. they spend a bunch of time worshiping a god that doesn't exist

That's hilarious that you think believers can't or don't live life to the fullest. But you still didn't answer the question. What if there was a God and a Heaven, what then?

Anonymous wrote:Well if you are right that there is no God & no Heaven, believers lose nothing. However, if we are right that there IS a God & Heaven, you'd be in big trouble.

pulling out pascal's wager again? in the 21st century when we know so much more about how the world works, it's kind of pitiful.

And yes, believers do lose something if there's no heaven -- they miss out on living the one life they have to the fullest, thinking they have an eternity ahead of them, when it's so obvious that their fate is the same as every other living thing on earth - you're born, you live, you die. they spend a bunch of time worshiping a god that doesn't exist

Anonymous wrote:Well if you are right that there is no God & no Heaven, believers lose nothing. However, if we are right that there IS a God & Heaven, you'd be in big trouble.

If we atheists are right, then all of us win by having the eternal peace of nothingness rather than a boring eternity in Heaven or a frightful eternity in Hell.