Anonymous
09/13/2014 07:08
Subject: Discriminatory College Advising @ Big 3
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Oh come on. My kids went to STA and everyone knew whose parents were CEOs or White House aides. Let's not pretend that there isn't an element of privilege to college admissions and advising when schools like STA and Sidwell know that parents will hold them accountable for college admissions.
What a cynical post. You were not in meetings with other students, so you would not know what counselors say to anyone else but your child in a meeting in which you are present. Yet you have no problem impugning the ethics of the professionals at your child's school. Ugly behavior.
So you think privilege doesn't exist?
I don't think the college counselors write better letters or give better advice to rich kids, no. Those I have met at various schools have for the most part been kind, diplomatic people doing an increasingly thankless job, and doing their best for all of the students.
If you ask whether privilege is a factor in college admissions in general? Of course. Legacy preference, preference for "development cases."
But the idea that college counselors don't try their hardest for kids without wealthy/famous parents? No. I don't agree at all and I think the accusation does a disservice to those educators.
Wow, you must be new to this world.
No, I'm not new to this world. I've met good people in college counseling whom I respect greatly. I have also seen some counselors go to extraordinary lengths on behalf of "ordinary' kids, including finding scholarship opportunities (for example the POSSE scholarships) that take a lot of additional work on the counselor's part but have helped made college much more affordable. I don't consider myself naive -- I am not blind to the idea that privilege may play a part in other parts of independent school life (squeaky wheel gets the grease principle) but, again, in the college counseling process I've seen many counselors go the extra mile precisely to help the families that are not as sophisticated in the process.
Anonymous
09/13/2014 04:28
Subject: Discriminatory College Advising @ Big 3
All these responses that miss the notion of "fit" ... Sigh
Just because you can GET in doesn't mean you will FIT in.
Just because you can GET in doesn't mean you will FIT in.
Anonymous
09/13/2014 00:02
Subject: Discriminatory College Advising @ Big 3
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Oh come on. My kids went to STA and everyone knew whose parents were CEOs or White House aides. Let's not pretend that there isn't an element of privilege to college admissions and advising when schools like STA and Sidwell know that parents will hold them accountable for college admissions.
What a cynical post. You were not in meetings with other students, so you would not know what counselors say to anyone else but your child in a meeting in which you are present. Yet you have no problem impugning the ethics of the professionals at your child's school. Ugly behavior.
So you think privilege doesn't exist?
I don't think the college counselors write better letters or give better advice to rich kids, no. Those I have met at various schools have for the most part been kind, diplomatic people doing an increasingly thankless job, and doing their best for all of the students.
If you ask whether privilege is a factor in college admissions in general? Of course. Legacy preference, preference for "development cases."
But the idea that college counselors don't try their hardest for kids without wealthy/famous parents? No. I don't agree at all and I think the accusation does a disservice to those educators.
Wow, you must be new to this world.
Anonymous
09/12/2014 22:14
Subject: Discriminatory College Advising @ Big 3
On the original post:
1. If the child is not happy with the ED idea, whether at that school or a different one, he shouldn't do it. The reason counselors really push it is because Early Decision is a very valuable chip that can materially increase chances of admission. You could go back and say he'd be willing to do Early Action (non-binding), and pick one of his reaches and give it a try.
2. It does sound like the child would count as an under-represented minority (Latino) because of his Central American heritage. If the parents don't think it is immediately apparent, as seemed implied, they should make sure the college counselor is aware of it and is taking it into account.
3. I don't believe the OP said that the child would be first generation college -- she said that she and her husband were not educated in the USA, which I took to mean they went to university but not in the States. If the child is first-generation, the current counselor should be told, but that does not seem likely.
4. It is fine to have a bunch of "high unlikely reaches" as long as the list is fleshed out with safer choices. I would be shocked if the counselor is somehow "discriminatory," but even seasoned professionals can make the wrong call in assessing the strength of the application package and perhaps the diversity factor has been missed.
1. If the child is not happy with the ED idea, whether at that school or a different one, he shouldn't do it. The reason counselors really push it is because Early Decision is a very valuable chip that can materially increase chances of admission. You could go back and say he'd be willing to do Early Action (non-binding), and pick one of his reaches and give it a try.
2. It does sound like the child would count as an under-represented minority (Latino) because of his Central American heritage. If the parents don't think it is immediately apparent, as seemed implied, they should make sure the college counselor is aware of it and is taking it into account.
3. I don't believe the OP said that the child would be first generation college -- she said that she and her husband were not educated in the USA, which I took to mean they went to university but not in the States. If the child is first-generation, the current counselor should be told, but that does not seem likely.
4. It is fine to have a bunch of "high unlikely reaches" as long as the list is fleshed out with safer choices. I would be shocked if the counselor is somehow "discriminatory," but even seasoned professionals can make the wrong call in assessing the strength of the application package and perhaps the diversity factor has been missed.
Anonymous
09/12/2014 22:06
Subject: Discriminatory College Advising @ Big 3
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Oh come on. My kids went to STA and everyone knew whose parents were CEOs or White House aides. Let's not pretend that there isn't an element of privilege to college admissions and advising when schools like STA and Sidwell know that parents will hold them accountable for college admissions.
What a cynical post. You were not in meetings with other students, so you would not know what counselors say to anyone else but your child in a meeting in which you are present. Yet you have no problem impugning the ethics of the professionals at your child's school. Ugly behavior.
So you think privilege doesn't exist?
I don't think the college counselors write better letters or give better advice to rich kids, no. Those I have met at various schools have for the most part been kind, diplomatic people doing an increasingly thankless job, and doing their best for all of the students.
If you ask whether privilege is a factor in college admissions in general? Of course. Legacy preference, preference for "development cases."
But the idea that college counselors don't try their hardest for kids without wealthy/famous parents? No. I don't agree at all and I think the accusation does a disservice to those educators.
Anonymous
09/12/2014 22:02
Subject: Discriminatory College Advising @ Big 3
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Oh come on. My kids went to STA and everyone knew whose parents were CEOs or White House aides. Let's not pretend that there isn't an element of privilege to college admissions and advising when schools like STA and Sidwell know that parents will hold them accountable for college admissions.
What a cynical post. You were not in meetings with other students, so you would not know what counselors say to anyone else but your child in a meeting in which you are present. Yet you have no problem impugning the ethics of the professionals at your child's school. Ugly behavior.
So you think privilege doesn't exist?
Anonymous
09/12/2014 22:01
Subject: Discriminatory College Advising @ Big 3
Anonymous wrote:Oh come on. My kids went to STA and everyone knew whose parents were CEOs or White House aides. Let's not pretend that there isn't an element of privilege to college admissions and advising when schools like STA and Sidwell know that parents will hold them accountable for college admissions.
What a cynical post. You were not in meetings with other students, so you would not know what counselors say to anyone else but your child in a meeting in which you are present. Yet you have no problem impugning the ethics of the professionals at your child's school. Ugly behavior.
Anonymous
09/12/2014 21:54
Subject: Discriminatory College Advising @ Big 3
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:We are at a Big 3 school where a 3.8 gpa would put you at the top of the class and kids with those stats routinely get into the schools you mention. I'd go for it. The counselor are very risk averse and eager to get kids settled early.
Ditto. My child is at SFS, and that GPA (given a rigorous course load) is in the top 10% - or would be if they calculated GPA and rank! ? The admissions percentages that a PP gave for the top colleges was not correct however. Harvard has a 3-4% regular admission rate! but this past year it was 23% early action. Princeton was 25% or so early action! UPenn is notorious for being some years close to 30% early decision! more for Cornell. All things being equal, 2200 SATs are not high for those schools, but not unrealistic. Especially if he applies early. UPenn also gives financial aid packages that kids don't have to pay back because their endowment is outrageous. Not merit based, just need based.
And whether folks on this site want to admit it or not, there is a Big 3 and it actually does matter to a lot of college recruiters. A lot of schools like to be seen as feeders from top area prep schools. Since not many kids in each of the top DC schools make NMSF with a cut off of 224, whose to say how many kids are really much over 2200-2250 when they apply to college. Your son is first generational to college and a Latino? My kid gets neither - no check the boxes - and unfortunately gets held to a higher standard. All this being said, a family exposed Madeira school years ago because they were refusing to give kids recommendations to schools they didn't approve of, because they were trying to go for 100% kids getting into their first choice school. This stuff happens. Parents need to go with their guts in the end.
Golden!
Anonymous
09/12/2014 21:11
Subject: Discriminatory College Advising @ Big 3
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:We are at a Big 3 school where a 3.8 gpa would put you at the top of the class and kids with those stats routinely get into the schools you mention. I'd go for it. The counselor are very risk averse and eager to get kids settled early.
Ditto. My child is at SFS, and that GPA (given a rigorous course load) is in the top 10% - or would be if they calculated GPA and rank! ? The admissions percentages that a PP gave for the top colleges was not correct however. Harvard has a 3-4% regular admission rate! but this past year it was 23% early action. Princeton was 25% or so early action! UPenn is notorious for being some years close to 30% early decision! more for Cornell. All things being equal, 2200 SATs are not high for those schools, but not unrealistic. Especially if he applies early. UPenn also gives financial aid packages that kids don't have to pay back because their endowment is outrageous. Not merit based, just need based.
And whether folks on this site want to admit it or not, there is a Big 3 and it actually does matter to a lot of college recruiters. A lot of schools like to be seen as feeders from top area prep schools. Since not many kids in each of the top DC schools make NMSF with a cut off of 224, whose to say how many kids are really much over 2200-2250 when they apply to college. Your son is first generational to college and a Latino? My kid gets neither - no check the boxes - and unfortunately gets held to a higher standard. All this being said, a family exposed Madeira school years ago because they were refusing to give kids recommendations to schools they didn't approve of, because they were trying to go for 100% kids getting into their first choice school. This stuff happens.
Parents need to go with their guts in the end.
+1. That saved me some typing!
Anonymous
09/12/2014 21:09
Subject: Discriminatory College Advising @ Big 3
Anonymous wrote:We are at a Big 3 school where a 3.8 gpa would put you at the top of the class and kids with those stats routinely get into the schools you mention. I'd go for it. The counselor are very risk averse and eager to get kids settled early.
Ditto. My child is at SFS, and that GPA (given a rigorous course load) is in the top 10% - or would be if they calculated GPA and rank! ? The admissions percentages that a PP gave for the top colleges was not correct however. Harvard has a 3-4% regular admission rate! but this past year it was 23% early action. Princeton was 25% or so early action! UPenn is notorious for being some years close to 30% early decision! more for Cornell. All things being equal, 2200 SATs are not high for those schools, but not unrealistic. Especially if he applies early. UPenn also gives financial aid packages that kids don't have to pay back because their endowment is outrageous. Not merit based, just need based.
And whether folks on this site want to admit it or not, there is a Big 3 and it actually does matter to a lot of college recruiters. A lot of schools like to be seen as feeders from top area prep schools. Since not many kids in each of the top DC schools make NMSF with a cut off of 224, whose to say how many kids are really much over 2200-2250 when they apply to college. Your son is first generational to college and a Latino? My kid gets neither - no check the boxes - and unfortunately gets held to a higher standard. All this being said, a family exposed Madeira school years ago because they were refusing to give kids recommendations to schools they didn't approve of, because they were trying to go for 100% kids getting into their first choice school. This stuff happens. Parents need to go with their guts in the end.
Anonymous
09/12/2014 20:37
Subject: Discriminatory College Advising @ Big 3
We are at a Big 3 school where a 3.8 gpa would put you at the top of the class and kids with those stats routinely get into the schools you mention. I'd go for it. The counselor are very risk averse and eager to get kids settled early.
Anonymous
09/12/2014 20:14
Subject: Discriminatory College Advising @ Big 3
Anonymous wrote:OP here. I'm not going to go into the details of my family's finances. All I will say is that at a well-endowed school DC will likely receive a full-ride or something close to it. Even being working class, it's possible to save a couple thousand for living expenses and books, etc.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Are you saying your DS needs close to a full ride in order to attend college? If that is true, you are putting the cart before the horse. This is not about what school your DS wants or deserves to attend. This is about what schools will give your family the assistance you need.
What your DS needs to focus on are the relatively small number of (mostly) elite private schools that give lots of financial aid, your own state's publics, the second-tier schools that are going to throw money at a good student like your DS, and the handful of state schools that offer great financial assistance to out of state school (Alabama, eg).
I would have a frank discussion with your DS about your financial situation and the absolute necessity of significant financial aid. This has nothing to do with being working class. We are a family making over $200k in white collar jobs, and we have had this discussion with our DC.
Your DS must have a safety school that your family can afford. Your best bet--in terms of both admission chances and affordability--are your own state schools or an Alabama or other school that tries to attract OOS students. I assume you don't live in VA? Your counselor is not recommending UVA or Michigan because she knows they won't give much aid to an OOS student. (Understandably, IMO.) Once your DS has figured out a safety or two, he should pick some reaches. Go wild--the best financial aid is at the elite schools. Maybe he will get in, maybe not. Then pick some second- tier schools known for offer big awards to top students. You want to be looking in the 40-70 range of liberal arts colleges.
Anonymous
09/12/2014 19:30
Subject: Discriminatory College Advising @ Big 3
I've been a Harvard interviewer in this area for a while.
The first question a competitive college will ask is whether your son has taken the most rigorous courseload the school has to offer. The exact GPA only matters to the extent that it needs to be high compared to the standards of the school. The school will generally expect at least 3 5's on AP tests taken as a junior, with several more APs on the transcript for this year. I know many classes at the Big 3 aren't explicitly labeled AP, but we all know that's a bit of a semantic game.
I think the college counselor's conservatism stems from the fact that successful applicants to highly competitive colleges usually have some "distinguishing excellence" achieved outside the school. They are looking for Eagle Scouts, concertmasters in the county youth orchestra, kids who have started tutoring programs or community service projects, kids who have won national writing awards, etc. Has any of your son's research been published or entered in a science competition? If so, that's his way in. If not, it may be difficult for him to stand out in the HYPS applicant pool.
However, if neither you or your husband are university graduates, your son's accomplishments will be taken very seriously. At Harvard at least, the admissions office takes the mantra "Much is expected of those to whom much has been given," very seriously. If your son has achieved what he has starting farther from the finish line than his classmates, the colleges will take note.
Go ahead and tell your son to apply to the reaches, and he shouldn't apply ED to a school he doesn't love. However, you should treat those reach colleges as a spin of the roulette wheel and assume that he will probably be attending one of the ballpark schools his counselor has recommended.
The first question a competitive college will ask is whether your son has taken the most rigorous courseload the school has to offer. The exact GPA only matters to the extent that it needs to be high compared to the standards of the school. The school will generally expect at least 3 5's on AP tests taken as a junior, with several more APs on the transcript for this year. I know many classes at the Big 3 aren't explicitly labeled AP, but we all know that's a bit of a semantic game.
I think the college counselor's conservatism stems from the fact that successful applicants to highly competitive colleges usually have some "distinguishing excellence" achieved outside the school. They are looking for Eagle Scouts, concertmasters in the county youth orchestra, kids who have started tutoring programs or community service projects, kids who have won national writing awards, etc. Has any of your son's research been published or entered in a science competition? If so, that's his way in. If not, it may be difficult for him to stand out in the HYPS applicant pool.
However, if neither you or your husband are university graduates, your son's accomplishments will be taken very seriously. At Harvard at least, the admissions office takes the mantra "Much is expected of those to whom much has been given," very seriously. If your son has achieved what he has starting farther from the finish line than his classmates, the colleges will take note.
Go ahead and tell your son to apply to the reaches, and he shouldn't apply ED to a school he doesn't love. However, you should treat those reach colleges as a spin of the roulette wheel and assume that he will probably be attending one of the ballpark schools his counselor has recommended.
Anonymous
09/12/2014 18:56
Subject: Re:Discriminatory College Advising @ Big 3
Ignore the counselors. Counselors at our DC's private advised a similarly situated student NOT to apply to any Ivy League schools. This student got accepted at not 1, but 2 Ivies. The student was a URM and did not have a lot of money and I suspect the counselors were prioritizing the bigger donating students in their counselor write - ups.
Anonymous
09/12/2014 18:52
Subject: Discriminatory College Advising @ Big 3
When looking at the SAT and GPA ranges of a college's admits, keep in mind that the students at the lower end of that range (the bottom half, perhaps?) probably had some hook that got them in unrelated to their academics (legacy, recruited athlete, etc.). In my experience, the kids who were admitted on the strength of their academics were at the very top of that SAT/GPA range.