jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:18:07, well put.

Why can't the Pals in Gaza grow their own food? Build a country? Invest in agriculture or any industry? Do anything other than blame Israel, build rockets and dig tunnels for the purpose of killing Jews? Ahh - its just easier to hate the damn Jews and try to kill them all by lobbing rockets. Every. Single. Day. for 7 years.

They are trying to kill Israelis, not "Jews". If we blamed the occupation on Jews, you would call us anti-Semetic.

Can't say anything of value here, so one must resort to twisting?

I'm not twisting. I'm pointing out the facts. You are choosing words for maximum emotional impact. But, that is a dangerous game to play. You can't have it both ways where Jews and Israel are concerned. If you won't want Israel's actions to spread anti-Semitism, then you should contribute to the perception that they are the same thing.

For the other PP who can mind-read Palestinians to determine who they target, Hamas targets Israeli soldiers. Druze serve in the Israeli military. Hamas doesn't check their religion before attacking them. One of the Israeli civilians killed by rockets was an Arab.

You obviously have no idea how Israel restricts agriculture among the Palestinians. Just look at the West Bank where there Hamas is not in control and there is no blockade Israel tightly controls the water, providing more to settlements then to Palestinians. It restricts imports and exports. Access to land is restricted, with fields being completely cut off from villages. So, yes, Palestinians blame Israel. Correctly.

Apparently, access to concrete wasn't restricted. That didn't work out too well for Israel. Or, ultimately, Gaza, I guess.

Typical. The discussion was about agriculture. When it doesn't go your way you simply change the subject. I've always said DCUM could field a world class goalpost moving team. But, if you want to talk about cement, Israel blockaded it for six years until slightly easing the restrictions last year. Note, they eased the restrictions. They didn't remove them. So, your post is factually wrong. Cement was restricted. Ironically, Hamas used tunnels to smuggle cement that were used for tunnels.

Edit: just in case you need a source to support this:

http://www.npr.org/2013/10/03/228550973/israel-eases-restriction-on-building-materials-to-gaza-strip

Must have hit a nerve . . . .

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:18:07, well put.

Why can't the Pals in Gaza grow their own food? Build a country? Invest in agriculture or any industry? Do anything other than blame Israel, build rockets and dig tunnels for the purpose of killing Jews? Ahh - its just easier to hate the damn Jews and try to kill them all by lobbing rockets. Every. Single. Day. for 7 years.

They are trying to kill Israelis, not "Jews". If we blamed the occupation on Jews, you would call us anti-Semetic.

Can't say anything of value here, so one must resort to twisting?

I'm not twisting. I'm pointing out the facts. You are choosing words for maximum emotional impact. But, that is a dangerous game to play. You can't have it both ways where Jews and Israel are concerned. If you won't want Israel's actions to spread anti-Semitism, then you should contribute to the perception that they are the same thing.

For the other PP who can mind-read Palestinians to determine who they target, Hamas targets Israeli soldiers. Druze serve in the Israeli military. Hamas doesn't check their religion before attacking them. One of the Israeli civilians killed by rockets was an Arab.

You obviously have no idea how Israel restricts agriculture among the Palestinians. Just look at the West Bank where there Hamas is not in control and there is no blockade Israel tightly controls the water, providing more to settlements then to Palestinians. It restricts imports and exports. Access to land is restricted, with fields being completely cut off from villages. So, yes, Palestinians blame Israel. Correctly.

Apparently, access to concrete wasn't restricted. That didn't work out too well for Israel. Or, ultimately, Gaza, I guess.

Typical. The discussion was about agriculture. When it doesn't go your way you simply change the subject. I've always said DCUM could field a world class goalpost moving team. But, if you want to talk about cement, Israel blockaded it for six years until slightly easing the restrictions last year. Note, they eased the restrictions. They didn't remove them. So, your post is factually wrong. Cement was restricted. Ironically, Hamas used tunnels to smuggle cement that were used for tunnels.

Edit: just in case you need a source to support this:

http://www.npr.org/2013/10/03/228550973/israel-eases-restriction-on-building-materials-to-gaza-strip

Have the Pals built anything since Israel gave them Gaza and walked out in 2007? One thing other than a terrorist infrastructure, despite millions from their benefactors in the rest of the Middle East and Iran? Please Muslima (or Khaled Meeshal), explain, or send me one of famous links to a Arab media source.

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Guess they should not have destroyed those greenhouses they were given

I don't know if it is you who continually brings this up, but there are a couple of facts of which you should be aware. At the time the greenhouses were destroyed, Hamas was not in power. The Palestinian Authority -- really just Fatah -- was in power then. The security forces didn't do anything to prevent the looting (nor did they participate) and many Gazans were angry about the destruction. It was one more thing blamed on the PA and it's possible that this incident contributed to the dislike for the PA/Fatah that led to the election victory of Hamas. You also fail to mention that even a greater number of greenhouses were destroyed by settlers before the withdrawal.

Did Arabs destroy some of the greenhouses, or didn't they? If so, they created their own issues for the people of Gaza, just like they do by using human shields, etc. You can continue to put the blame on Israel, but it sounds like there are lots of issues in Gaza and with the Arab leadership in general. Israel, therefore, needs to keep that shit contained. You don't let the gangs take over the neighborhood

Okay, so you aren't actually a rational person. But, for anyone who cares to give actual thought to this, yes, greenhouses were destroyed. No, Hamas didn't do it. No, once it was done it couldn't be undone. But, restrictions on food could be lived at anytime. Israel didn't, and hasn't, lifted them. To act like a one-time action -- however misguided -- is the same as a continuous and ongoing action is pretty obtuse.

Plenty of money to build tunnels though

What good is money if Israel embargoes anything you want to buy with it? The tunnels were used to smuggle food.

I didn't realize that's all they were used for.

How much food can a million dollar plus tunnel buy? How much does it take for a country to grow one's own?

You are a smart man Jeff, and you know this remark is disingenuous

The tunnels are used to import a wide range of goods, including livestock, zoo animals, food, medicines, clothes, car parts, building supplies, weapons and luxury items in general. Some, more secret, tunnels are said to be used by militant groups to bring in arms and money.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/israels-gaza-blockade-baffles-both-sides/
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=680987

So whether you like or dislike them, the tunnels are pretty vital to the economy.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:18:07, well put.

Why can't the Pals in Gaza grow their own food? Build a country? Invest in agriculture or any industry? Do anything other than blame Israel, build rockets and dig tunnels for the purpose of killing Jews? Ahh - its just easier to hate the damn Jews and try to kill them all by lobbing rockets. Every. Single. Day. for 7 years.

They are trying to kill Israelis, not "Jews". If we blamed the occupation on Jews, you would call us anti-Semetic.

Can't say anything of value here, so one must resort to twisting?

I'm not twisting. I'm pointing out the facts. You are choosing words for maximum emotional impact. But, that is a dangerous game to play. You can't have it both ways where Jews and Israel are concerned. If you won't want Israel's actions to spread anti-Semitism, then you should contribute to the perception that they are the same thing.

For the other PP who can mind-read Palestinians to determine who they target, Hamas targets Israeli soldiers. Druze serve in the Israeli military. Hamas doesn't check their religion before attacking them. One of the Israeli civilians killed by rockets was an Arab.

You obviously have no idea how Israel restricts agriculture among the Palestinians. Just look at the West Bank where there Hamas is not in control and there is no blockade Israel tightly controls the water, providing more to settlements then to Palestinians. It restricts imports and exports. Access to land is restricted, with fields being completely cut off from villages. So, yes, Palestinians blame Israel. Correctly.

Apparently, access to concrete wasn't restricted. That didn't work out too well for Israel. Or, ultimately, Gaza, I guess.

Anonymous wrote:Why is OP bringing up a story from 2012? Also, the Guardian piece seems to make clear that Israel wanted to make sure Gazans did not starve and would get on average at least the minimum calories required.

They failed to meet that calorie requirement, so no. And keeping them near but not at starvation is morally wrong. If they aimed for the recommended calorie requirement for healthy people, that would be another story. But that was not their target.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Such is war:

A US diplomatic cable revealed by WikiLeaks last year quoted Israeli diplomats as saying they wanted to "keep Gaza's economy on the brink of collapse".

That makes sense, given the election of a terrorist organization that calls for the death of Israel and Jews.

What do you think Gazans and West Bankers should do, given the ascension of the party that denies the possibility of Palestinian state and wants to extend Israel to the Eastern bank of Jordan?

Likud is in a coalition with a party that disagrees with that, so if they actually tried that, they would lose their government.

Likud is also in a coalition with the parties that are even more right-wing like Our Jewish Home, so why not pick on them?

PP here. You missed the point of my post. Likud may actually think that (I doubt it, given that they showed up to the Oslo accords), but even if they do, they can't do anything to fulfill that if they want to govern, or their coalition will collapse.

Apparently you don't know who the coalition members are.

Yesh Atid wants to keep extensive west bank settlements. And HaBayit HaYehudi is very conservative. I personally know its leader, and I don't think he would strenuously object if he thought it was feasible.

Yesh Atid supports the two state solution, according to Wikipedia, so I doubt they want to annex Palestine.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Such is war:

A US diplomatic cable revealed by WikiLeaks last year quoted Israeli diplomats as saying they wanted to "keep Gaza's economy on the brink of collapse".

That makes sense, given the election of a terrorist organization that calls for the death of Israel and Jews.

Wow, is this the forum where war criminals express their pride in their crimes against humanity?

Do yourself a favor, and download the App 'Red Alert'.

Do yourself a favor and see what the Israeli goverment has wrought...

http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1Y1YYEK_enUS513US515&biw=640&bih=176&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=kvXfU5DXEKvmsAS69oHQBA&q=gaza+deaths+2014&oq=gaza+deaths+2014&gs_l=mobile-gws-serp.3..41j0.2226.2226.0.5355.1.1.0.0.0.0.621.621.5-1.1.0....0...1c.1.51.mobile-gws-serp..0.1.621.6IflpExOeEk

They loose credibility when they take pictures of atrocities elsewhere (Syria) and blame it on Israel.

Wow, that was your takeaway from the link above? Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Such is war:

A US diplomatic cable revealed by WikiLeaks last year quoted Israeli diplomats as saying they wanted to "keep Gaza's economy on the brink of collapse".

That makes sense, given the election of a terrorist organization that calls for the death of Israel and Jews.

What do you think Gazans and West Bankers should do, given the ascension of the party that denies the possibility of Palestinian state and wants to extend Israel to the Eastern bank of Jordan?

Likud is in a coalition with a party that disagrees with that, so if they actually tried that, they would lose their government.

Likud is also in a coalition with the parties that are even more right-wing like Our Jewish Home, so why not pick on them?

PP here. You missed the point of my post. Likud may actually think that (I doubt it, given that they showed up to the Oslo accords), but even if they do, they can't do anything to fulfill that if they want to govern, or their coalition will collapse.

Apparently you don't know who the coalition members are.

Yesh Atid wants to keep extensive west bank settlements. And HaBayit HaYehudi is very conservative. I personally know its leader, and I don't think he would strenuously object if he thought it was feasible.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:18:07, well put.

Why can't the Pals in Gaza grow their own food? Build a country? Invest in agriculture or any industry? Do anything other than blame Israel, build rockets and dig tunnels for the purpose of killing Jews? Ahh - its just easier to hate the damn Jews and try to kill them all by lobbing rockets. Every. Single. Day. for 7 years.

18:07 here. Thank you

Apparently, we are too practical for DCUM. . Imagine that!

Seriously, this is a real question? You obviously have an Internet connection, please use it & research the words "Blockade" & "Occupation".

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:18:07, well put.

Why can't the Pals in Gaza grow their own food? Build a country? Invest in agriculture or any industry? Do anything other than blame Israel, build rockets and dig tunnels for the purpose of killing Jews? Ahh - its just easier to hate the damn Jews and try to kill them all by lobbing rockets. Every. Single. Day. for 7 years.

They are trying to kill Israelis, not "Jews". If we blamed the occupation on Jews, you would call us anti-Semetic.

Can't say anything of value here, so one must resort to twisting?

I'm not twisting. I'm pointing out the facts. You are choosing words for maximum emotional impact. But, that is a dangerous game to play. You can't have it both ways where Jews and Israel are concerned. If you won't want Israel's actions to spread anti-Semitism, then you should contribute to the perception that they are the same thing.

For the other PP who can mind-read Palestinians to determine who they target, Hamas targets Israeli soldiers. Druze serve in the Israeli military. Hamas doesn't check their religion before attacking them. One of the Israeli civilians killed by rockets was an Arab.

You obviously have no idea how Israel restricts agriculture among the Palestinians. Just look at the West Bank where there Hamas is not in control and there is no blockade Israel tightly controls the water, providing more to settlements then to Palestinians. It restricts imports and exports. Access to land is restricted, with fields being completely cut off from villages. So, yes, Palestinians blame Israel. Correctly.

Anonymous wrote:Such is war:

A US diplomatic cable revealed by WikiLeaks last year quoted Israeli diplomats as saying they wanted to "keep Gaza's economy on the brink of collapse".

That makes sense, given the election of a terrorist organization that calls for the death of Israel and Jews.

Hmmm...Israel and Palestine were not at war when the blockade started.

If Israel deliberately attempted to starve out Hamas and such is war, then Israel fired the first shot in the war.

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Guess they should not have destroyed those greenhouses they were given

I don't know if it is you who continually brings this up, but there are a couple of facts of which you should be aware. At the time the greenhouses were destroyed, Hamas was not in power. The Palestinian Authority -- really just Fatah -- was in power then. The security forces didn't do anything to prevent the looting (nor did they participate) and many Gazans were angry about the destruction. It was one more thing blamed on the PA and it's possible that this incident contributed to the dislike for the PA/Fatah that led to the election victory of Hamas. You also fail to mention that even a greater number of greenhouses were destroyed by settlers before the withdrawal.

Did Arabs destroy some of the greenhouses, or didn't they? If so, they created their own issues for the people of Gaza, just like they do by using human shields, etc. You can continue to put the blame on Israel, but it sounds like there are lots of issues in Gaza and with the Arab leadership in general. Israel, therefore, needs to keep that shit contained. You don't let the gangs take over the neighborhood

Okay, so you aren't actually a rational person. But, for anyone who cares to give actual thought to this, yes, greenhouses were destroyed. No, Hamas didn't do it. No, once it was done it couldn't be undone. But, restrictions on food could be lived at anytime. Israel didn't, and hasn't, lifted them. To act like a one-time action -- however misguided -- is the same as a continuous and ongoing action is pretty obtuse.

Plenty of money to build tunnels though

What good is money if Israel embargoes anything you want to buy with it? The tunnels were used to smuggle food.

I didn't realize that's all they were used for.

How much food can a million dollar plus tunnel buy? How much does it take for a country to grow one's own?

You are a smart man Jeff, and you know this remark is disingenuous

The fact that you keep focusing on the tunnels while ignoring the context is very narrow-minded . Tunnels have ben in Gaza since Alexander the Great. In more recent times, Palestinians subverted Israeli controls over travel, imports and exports to and from the Gaza Strip by digging more tunnels . Did they use the tunnels to attack IDF soldiers? Yes, have they use the tunnels to attack civilians? No. Israel is committed to penning in and controlling the Palestinians forever.When their objections to this situation get too violent, they have to be disciplined. That is what is happening now. Israel's argument, its only argument one might add, is that in the name of its "national security " there is no crime it can commit as its stands the eternal victim. But beyond this narrative, this irrational rationale, Israel continues to argue that Palestine and Palestinians remain an inherent threat to its very existence. If Israel can label Hamas a terror group, what should we label Israel's MP calls for a Palestinian genocide? Israel cannot bomb Palestinians into submission, and it certainly cannot bomb them into peace.

No, they are trying to kill Jews Jeff. They don't specifically target NonJews in Israel.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:18:07, well put.

Why can't the Pals in Gaza grow their own food? Build a country? Invest in agriculture or any industry? Do anything other than blame Israel, build rockets and dig tunnels for the purpose of killing Jews? Ahh - its just easier to hate the damn Jews and try to kill them all by lobbing rockets. Every. Single. Day. for 7 years.

They are trying to kill Israelis, not "Jews". If we blamed the occupation on Jews, you would call us anti-Semetic.

Can't say anything of value here, so one must resort to twisting?