Anonymous
08/04/2014 01:10
Subject: Mary - Gestational Surrogate or Biological Mother of Jesus?
If gestational surrogate then why was he not claimed by biological parent(s)/father - he did not have Down's Syndrome, after all!
Anonymous
08/04/2014 00:46
Subject: Mary - Gestational Surrogate or Biological Mother of Jesus?
Anonymous wrote:What a waste of time people. Bat-shit is right. If this is how you want to fill your few days on this earth, fine. Please know that if the universe has any record of your inane debates it will laugh. It's very human to want to know the root of one's existence, and very human to try and come up with an answer -- I forgive you all. Now, can we get down to living life and let this shit go already?
Wouldn't how you, "get down to living life", depend on which "Bat-shit" answers you think are true?
Anonymous
08/03/2014 21:52
Subject: Mary - Gestational Surrogate or Biological Mother of Jesus?
What a waste of time people. Bat-shit is right. If this is how you want to fill your few days on this earth, fine. Please know that if the universe has any record of your inane debates it will laugh. It's very human to want to know the root of one's existence, and very human to try and come up with an answer -- I forgive you all. Now, can we get down to living life and let this shit go already?
Anonymous
08/03/2014 11:47
Subject: Mary - Gestational Surrogate or Biological Mother of Jesus?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:No, the islamic position is that the early followers got it right but most of them were persecuted and killedAnonymous wrote:Jesus' message, as reported in the New Testament and the Quran, is pretty different. I won't go into details, but suffice it to say, there are different attitudes towards non-believers, women, what you eat, and more. The Islamic position is that the early followers of Christ got it wrong, so God sent Mohammed to correct things.
Just so I understand, the Islamic position is that the first followers got it right, but other so-called Christians persecuted and killed them, and then imposed their own version of what Jesus said? This would make Mohammed's message, which is indeed different from Jesus' message on many counts, a "correction" to the renegade Christians. Correct me if I'm wrong!
Considering that Mohammed's message was to kill infidels, I don't think I give a fig about what he says about anything.
That was my "Just so I understand...." I wasn't going to go there, but you did. So I'll add a little. I agree, I've read the Qu'ran and the New Testament, and there are very big difference in the attitudes towards outsiders, in Islam vs. Christianity. Jesus' message of "judge not" and "the hated Samaritan, an outsider, behaved better than the believers of your own group" are quite different from the Islamic concepts of Ummah and the Dhimmi, the latter extending to Jews and Christians but not to polytheists who had no protections whatsoever. It's hard to think this is the same Jesus.
PS. I was taught that Muslims do regard the Qu'ran as a correction, and although Muslima says it's a clearing up of confusion, I don't see a large distinction. For several centuries following some codifications in Christianity that happened about 350, there were dissenters in the Middle East, particularly with regard to whether Christ was divine/godlike (the subject of this thread). Mohammed, who lived in the trading areas of Medina and Mecca, where ideas as well as goods circulated freely, would have met some of these dissenters and heard their alternative views on Christ's message. Whatever your position on the divinity of Christ, however, other aspects of Jesus message (treatment of outsiders, whether war is ever justified, eating rules) are also pretty different between the Qu'ran and the New Testament.
Anonymous
08/03/2014 11:38
Subject: Mary - Gestational Surrogate or Biological Mother of Jesus?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:No, the islamic position is that the early followers got it right but most of them were persecuted and killedAnonymous wrote:Jesus' message, as reported in the New Testament and the Quran, is pretty different. I won't go into details, but suffice it to say, there are different attitudes towards non-believers, women, what you eat, and more. The Islamic position is that the early followers of Christ got it wrong, so God sent Mohammed to correct things.
Just so I understand, the Islamic position is that the first followers got it right, but other so-called Christians persecuted and killed them, and then imposed their own version of what Jesus said? This would make Mohammed's message, which is indeed different from Jesus' message on many counts, a "correction" to the renegade Christians. Correct me if I'm wrong!
Considering that Mohammed's message was to kill infidels, I don't think I give a fig about what he says about anything.
That was my "Just so I understand...." I wasn't going to go there, but you did. So I'll add a little. I agree, I've read the Qu'ran and the New Testament, and there are very big difference in the attitudes towards outsiders, in Islam vs. Christianity. Jesus' message of "judge not" and "the hated Samaritan, an outsider, behaved better than the believers of your own group" are quite different from the Islamic concepts of Ummah and the Dhimmi, the latter extending to Jews and Christians but not to polytheists who had no protections whatsoever. It's hard to think this is the same Jesus.
PS. I was taught that Muslims do regard the Qu'ran as a correction, and although Muslima says it's a clearing up of confusion, I don't see a large distinction. For several centuries following some codifications in Christianity that happened about 350, there were dissenters in the Middle East. Mohammed, who lived in the trading areas of Medina and Mecca, where ideas as well as goods circulated freely, would have met some of these dissenters and heard their alternative views on Christ's message.
Anonymous
08/03/2014 11:34
Subject: Mary - Gestational Surrogate or Biological Mother of Jesus?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:No, the islamic position is that the early followers got it right but most of them were persecuted and killedAnonymous wrote:Jesus' message, as reported in the New Testament and the Quran, is pretty different. I won't go into details, but suffice it to say, there are different attitudes towards non-believers, women, what you eat, and more. The Islamic position is that the early followers of Christ got it wrong, so God sent Mohammed to correct things.
Just so I understand, the Islamic position is that the first followers got it right, but other so-called Christians persecuted and killed them, and then imposed their own version of what Jesus said? This would make Mohammed's message, which is indeed different from Jesus' message on many counts, a "correction" to the renegade Christians. Correct me if I'm wrong!
Considering that Mohammed's message was to kill infidels, I don't think I give a fig about what he says about anything.
That was my "Just so I understand...." I wasn't going to go there, but you did. So I'll add a little. I agree, I've read the Qu'ran and the New Testament, and there are very big difference in the attitudes towards outsiders, in Islam vs. Christianity. Jesus' message of "judge not" and "the hated Samaritan, an outsider, behaved better than the believers of your own group" are quite different from the Islamic concepts of Ummah and the Dhimmi, the latter extending to Jews and Christians but not to polytheists who had no protections whatsoever. It's hard to think this is the same Jesus.
Muslima
08/03/2014 10:47
Subject: Re:Mary - Gestational Surrogate or Biological Mother of Jesus?
I'm sorry you feel that way but I was responding to questions directed at me and you might believe in proselytizing but I don't. Unless you're some sort of magician, I don't see how you can compel someone's heart to turn and convert to a religion from an online forum....
Anonymous
08/02/2014 22:33
Subject: Mary - Gestational Surrogate or Biological Mother of Jesus?
I don't think it's so much trading information as it is taking threads off the topic, way off topic.takoma wrote:Anonymous wrote:Yes, please start a thread about Islam. I am not sure the poster is prosletizing but she has gone from the political forum to the religious forum now with dissertations of her religious beliefs.Anonymous wrote:People, can we please get back to the original question? Was Mary the biological mother of Jesus or just a surrogate? I'd like to add the question: whose DNA did Jesus share?
Start a new thread about Islam and end times if you want to discuss that.
She trades information without attacking other religions. Isn't such dialog what these forums are intended for?
takoma
08/02/2014 22:18
Subject: Mary - Gestational Surrogate or Biological Mother of Jesus?
Anonymous wrote:Yes, please start a thread about Islam. I am not sure the poster is prosletizing but she has gone from the political forum to the religious forum now with dissertations of her religious beliefs.Anonymous wrote:People, can we please get back to the original question? Was Mary the biological mother of Jesus or just a surrogate? I'd like to add the question: whose DNA did Jesus share?
Start a new thread about Islam and end times if you want to discuss that.
She trades information without attacking other religions. Isn't such dialog what these forums are intended for?
Anonymous
08/02/2014 21:49
Subject: Mary - Gestational Surrogate or Biological Mother of Jesus?
Yes, please start a thread about Islam. I am not sure the poster is prosletizing but she has gone from the political forum to the religious forum now with dissertations of her religious beliefs.Anonymous wrote:People, can we please get back to the original question? Was Mary the biological mother of Jesus or just a surrogate? I'd like to add the question: whose DNA did Jesus share?
Start a new thread about Islam and end times if you want to discuss that.
Anonymous
07/31/2014 14:27
Subject: Mary - Gestational Surrogate or Biological Mother of Jesus?
Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:No, the islamic position is that the early followers got it right but most of them were persecuted and killedAnonymous wrote:Jesus' message, as reported in the New Testament and the Quran, is pretty different. I won't go into details, but suffice it to say, there are different attitudes towards non-believers, women, what you eat, and more. The Islamic position is that the early followers of Christ got it wrong, so God sent Mohammed to correct things.
Just so I understand, the Islamic position is that the first followers got it right, but other so-called Christians persecuted and killed them, and then imposed their own version of what Jesus said? This would make Mohammed's message, which is indeed different from Jesus' message on many counts, a "correction" to the renegade Christians. Correct me if I'm wrong!
Considering that Mohammed's message was to kill infidels, I don't think I give a fig about what he says about anything.
Muslima
07/30/2014 15:29
Subject: Mary - Gestational Surrogate or Biological Mother of Jesus?
Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:No, the islamic position is that the early followers got it right but most of them were persecuted and killedAnonymous wrote:Jesus' message, as reported in the New Testament and the Quran, is pretty different. I won't go into details, but suffice it to say, there are different attitudes towards non-believers, women, what you eat, and more. The Islamic position is that the early followers of Christ got it wrong, so God sent Mohammed to correct things.
Just so I understand, the Islamic position is that the first followers got it right, but other so-called Christians persecuted and killed them, and then imposed their own version of what Jesus said? This would make Mohammed's message, which is indeed different from Jesus' message on many counts, a "correction" to the renegade Christians. Correct me if I'm wrong!
No, it wasn't other Christians who killed them. After Jesus 's ascension (peace be upon him) , his disciples continued spreading his message.
message and continued to follow a righteous path. They were abused, oppressed, and tortured by the Jews of their time. So much so, that none remained alive. People dispersed in all directions. Some claimed that Jesus alayhe salam was God. Others claimed he was the son of God. Yet, others said that he is one of three parts - the Trinity.
Confusion continued until the arrival of the promised messenger - Muhammad salla allahu alayhe wasalam. He came to confirm the word of Allah and to clarify the position of Jesus alayhe salam. We are told in the Quran that Jesus told them about the coming of the Prophet saw : Jesus, the son of Mary, said: “O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad.” But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, “this is evident sorcery!” (Qur’an 61:6, )
During the lifetime of Muhammad saw, there were Christians who recognized in him the fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy (and there were Jews as well as Christians who saw him as the fulfillment of some of the Hebrew prophets’ statements)
Anonymous
07/30/2014 14:49
Subject: Mary - Gestational Surrogate or Biological Mother of Jesus?
Muslima wrote:No, the islamic position is that the early followers got it right but most of them were persecuted and killedAnonymous wrote:Jesus' message, as reported in the New Testament and the Quran, is pretty different. I won't go into details, but suffice it to say, there are different attitudes towards non-believers, women, what you eat, and more. The Islamic position is that the early followers of Christ got it wrong, so God sent Mohammed to correct things.
Just so I understand, the Islamic position is that the first followers got it right, but other so-called Christians persecuted and killed them, and then imposed their own version of what Jesus said? This would make Mohammed's message, which is indeed different from Jesus' message on many counts, a "correction" to the renegade Christians. Correct me if I'm wrong!
Anonymous
07/30/2014 14:30
Subject: Mary - Gestational Surrogate or Biological Mother of Jesus?
Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Anonymous wrote:will they still be Jewish, or will they be muslim now?
We believe that since the beginning of time, there was only one religion and all prophets were sent with the one and same message. Abraham peace be upon him, is actually the one who called us Muslims according to the Quran. In the language of the Holy Quran, prophets are called Muslims, so were their followers:
Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he followed the Primordial Religion and hence was a Muslim, and he took not gods with Allah (HQ:3:67).
It is the faith of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation) (HQ: 22: 78).
Jesus' disciples are recorded in the Holy Qur'an as called themselves Muslims, when Jesus said, "Who will support me in the Message of Allah,?" "We are supporting Allah's message with you, we believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims", said the disciples" (HQ: 3:52).
And behold! I inspired the Disciples to have faith in Me and Mine Messenger; they said, `We have faith, and do thou bear witness that we bow to Allah as Muslims'" (HQ:5:111).
So yes, all the believers who are going to be alive at that time will follow Jesus's teaching and his teaching will be Islam, so yes, they will be Muslims if they believe....
and if they don't believe?
The prophet saw said : “God will send the Messiah, son of Mary, who will descend at the white minaret on the eastern side of Damascus wearing two garments, lightly dyed with saffron, his hands resting on the wings of two Angels. When he lowers his head, beads of perspiration will fall from it, and when he raises it up, beads like pearls will scatter from it. Every non-believer who smells him will die, and his breath will reach as far as he is able to see.”
So , according to the islamic tradition, everybody who will be left on earth when Jesus peace be upon him will rule the world will be believers. They will all live peacefully under his guidance, religious sects will all disappear, wars are going to disappear. His reign will be marked by mutual respect, peace and prosperity among the people.
Bat-shit craziness.
Anonymous
07/30/2014 14:26
Subject: Mary - Gestational Surrogate or Biological Mother of Jesus?
Anonymous wrote:Muslima wrote:Allah says in Qur'an that they neither killed him nor crucified him, but it was made to appear so unto them.
Surah 4, Verses 157 & 158:
“and their saying : we killed Christ Jesus, son of Mary, The messenger of Allah - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to them so; and those who disagree concerning it are full of doubts; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; For surely they killed him not; but Allah took him up unto Himself; and Allah is ever mighty, wise.”
From the sayings of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), we get a more detailed account. The Muslim belief is that Allah changed the face of the person who betrayed Jesus, showing to the rulers the place where he was hiding, into a face resembling Jesus. So, they crucified that betrayer instead of Jesus and thought they killed him but that wasnt Jesus, he was already elevated to the heavens
The Quran says about God:
Say, He is the One and Only
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not nor is He begotten.
And there is none like unto Him.
So in the islamic tradition, we consider Jesus as a miracle of God but a human, he is not a God or son of God. We consider ALLAH to be unique. Jesus peace be upon him is in the heavens right now elevated to Allah, he will come back on earth at the end of times
Thanks for posting! Another reminder that I really, REALLY need to read the Qur'an.
Signed, A Christian
Yes, the more fairy tales, the better!