Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, and that is the opposite of empathy.

No, dear, I'm empathetic to the issue he has. I'm not proactive to fixing it. There's a difference. I was trying to convey to the OP (who gets it anyway) that this isn't normal or a nonissue. There will be and are repercussions, even if just on a social level with the kid's peers. We see the kid at the bus stop and at swim. He isn't a close friend and I don't know his family except in passing. I can have empathy though without having to fix the world's problems. I work, volunteer, have my own 2 kids with their own pains, blah blah...I can't take on every cause. Oh, and since this kid and his family aren't close to us, I'll just MYOB. If you have the time and want to butt in on everyone's problem, great for you!

Not the PP you're responding to but you come across as really dense. The PP did not suggest you treat this kid like your own or that you 'fix' the world's problems. It's very clear from what that child is saying that the child is trying to feel better about himself. Showing empathy to the child would 'cost' very little and the PP gave very good examples of how to show empathy. Why you think that means you're treating the child like your own or suggests you should 'fix the world's problems is confusing. It seems you have a different idea of empathy. Yeah, the kid gets a reputation as a liar but that doesn't mean he isn't deserving of empathy and kindness.

This is a kid I see at the bus stop only. My kid sees him at swim but I don't. How, pray tell, in the 5 minutes we have at the bus stop with 11 other kids and 7 parents am I supposed to show empathy? This isn't a close friend nor am I friendly with the family. We knew each other a little more during the last preschool year 2 years ago but even then the kids weren't together.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, and that is the opposite of empathy.

No, dear, I'm empathetic to the issue he has. I'm not proactive to fixing it. There's a difference. I was trying to convey to the OP (who gets it anyway) that this isn't normal or a nonissue. There will be and are repercussions, even if just on a social level with the kid's peers. We see the kid at the bus stop and at swim. He isn't a close friend and I don't know his family except in passing. I can have empathy though without having to fix the world's problems. I work, volunteer, have my own 2 kids with their own pains, blah blah...I can't take on every cause. Oh, and since this kid and his family aren't close to us, I'll just MYOB. If you have the time and want to butt in on everyone's problem, great for you!

Not the PP you're responding to but you come across as really dense. The PP did not suggest you treat this kid like your own or that you 'fix' the world's problems. It's very clear from what that child is saying that the child is trying to feel better about himself. Showing empathy to the child would 'cost' very little and the PP gave very good examples of how to show empathy. Why you think that means you're treating the child like your own or suggests you should 'fix the world's problems is confusing. It seems you have a different idea of empathy. Yeah, the kid gets a reputation as a liar but that doesn't mean he isn't deserving of empathy and kindness.

Anonymous wrote:Yes, and that is the opposite of empathy.

No, dear, I'm empathetic to the issue he has. I'm not proactive to fixing it. There's a difference. I was trying to convey to the OP (who gets it anyway) that this isn't normal or a nonissue. There will be and are repercussions, even if just on a social level with the kid's peers. We see the kid at the bus stop and at swim. He isn't a close friend and I don't know his family except in passing. I can have empathy though without having to fix the world's problems. I work, volunteer, have my own 2 kids with their own pains, blah blah...I can't take on every cause. Oh, and since this kid and his family aren't close to us, I'll just MYOB. If you have the time and want to butt in on everyone's problem, great for you!

Thanks for a great almost discussion on this issue. The responses were, for the most part, helpful and supportive, not attacking. I hold thks up as s great moral of what this site could be more often. OP good luck.

Yes, and that is the opposite of empathy.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree this is not normal. We have a 6 yr old boy, too. His friend from preschool is a liar as well. I noticed it starting when the kid was 4. I thought it was completely normal at the time. He is now 6 and id say about 40% of what the kid says is a lie.

- I almost got a first place, too. (Swim meet, kid came in last)

- I'm flying to Florida next week, too.

-We are using that girl for a babysitter, too. (Seeing my son interact with a fun teenager)

-My dad is getting me a new lego set today.

- we are moving

- I'm quitting soccer. Today's my last day.

- I got a new bike yesterday. (Kid had a 3 month old bike already)

Those statements sprinkled in over time would be normal. This kids spouts one out nearly every other sentence. We see him about 5 days a week at swim and before that daily at the bus stop. To all the naysayers, it is not normal, it is noticeable, and she's right to be proactive.

This is so, so, clearly lying because he wants to feel better about himself. Can't you see that? All of these statements are made because another child has something or is doing something and he feels one-down.

Can't you say to him "Do you wish you had a new bike? What can you do to earn a new bike?" Can't you gently talk to him about everyone wishing they had new things and new experiences? Just punishing him for having envious thoughts and wanting to do things he sees other kids do -- what does that teach him? That's he's even more one-down?

I was a new poster, not the OP. I'm not going to "treat" this other kid like he was my own. I am simply pointing out to the OP that the posters who are saying this is normal or not a big deal have to realize that it IS a big deal and the kid will be surrounded by people soon enough that all think of him as a liar. I know this boy who knows my son is a liar and my son - who is 6 - calls him a liar. "X lies all the time. I don't believe anything he says anymore."

And I'm saying to you that instead of hating on a kid who lies you might try having some empathy -- whether it is your child or some other child.

You didn't say that. You said I should ask him what he could do to earn a new bike. He had one that WAS new...3 months old only. He has lied to me about not getting a snack when I handed him one moments earlier. So while I'm sorry he has an issue, I've got my own kids who have their own issues.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree this is not normal. We have a 6 yr old boy, too. His friend from preschool is a liar as well. I noticed it starting when the kid was 4. I thought it was completely normal at the time. He is now 6 and id say about 40% of what the kid says is a lie.

- I almost got a first place, too. (Swim meet, kid came in last)

- I'm flying to Florida next week, too.

-We are using that girl for a babysitter, too. (Seeing my son interact with a fun teenager)

-My dad is getting me a new lego set today.

- we are moving

- I'm quitting soccer. Today's my last day.

- I got a new bike yesterday. (Kid had a 3 month old bike already)

Those statements sprinkled in over time would be normal. This kids spouts one out nearly every other sentence. We see him about 5 days a week at swim and before that daily at the bus stop. To all the naysayers, it is not normal, it is noticeable, and she's right to be proactive.

This is so, so, clearly lying because he wants to feel better about himself. Can't you see that? All of these statements are made because another child has something or is doing something and he feels one-down.

Can't you say to him "Do you wish you had a new bike? What can you do to earn a new bike?" Can't you gently talk to him about everyone wishing they had new things and new experiences? Just punishing him for having envious thoughts and wanting to do things he sees other kids do -- what does that teach him? That's he's even more one-down?

I was a new poster, not the OP. I'm not going to "treat" this other kid like he was my own. I am simply pointing out to the OP that the posters who are saying this is normal or not a big deal have to realize that it IS a big deal and the kid will be surrounded by people soon enough that all think of him as a liar. I know this boy who knows my son is a liar and my son - who is 6 - calls him a liar. "X lies all the time. I don't believe anything he says anymore."

And I'm saying to you that instead of hating on a kid who lies you might try having some empathy -- whether it is your child or some other child.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree this is not normal. We have a 6 yr old boy, too. His friend from preschool is a liar as well. I noticed it starting when the kid was 4. I thought it was completely normal at the time. He is now 6 and id say about 40% of what the kid says is a lie.

- I almost got a first place, too. (Swim meet, kid came in last)

- I'm flying to Florida next week, too.

-We are using that girl for a babysitter, too. (Seeing my son interact with a fun teenager)

-My dad is getting me a new lego set today.

- we are moving

- I'm quitting soccer. Today's my last day.

- I got a new bike yesterday. (Kid had a 3 month old bike already)

Those statements sprinkled in over time would be normal. This kids spouts one out nearly every other sentence. We see him about 5 days a week at swim and before that daily at the bus stop. To all the naysayers, it is not normal, it is noticeable, and she's right to be proactive.

This is so, so, clearly lying because he wants to feel better about himself. Can't you see that? All of these statements are made because another child has something or is doing something and he feels one-down.

Can't you say to him "Do you wish you had a new bike? What can you do to earn a new bike?" Can't you gently talk to him about everyone wishing they had new things and new experiences? Just punishing him for having envious thoughts and wanting to do things he sees other kids do -- what does that teach him? That's he's even more one-down?

I was a new poster, not the OP. I'm not going to "treat" this other kid like he was my own. I am simply pointing out to the OP that the posters who are saying this is normal or not a big deal have to realize that it IS a big deal and the kid will be surrounded by people soon enough that all think of him as a liar. I know this boy who knows my son is a liar and my son - who is 6 - calls him a liar. "X lies all the time. I don't believe anything he says anymore."

OP, this brought back memories! I am a functioning, gainfully employed adult who hasn't had as much as a parking ticket, who went through a stealing and lying phase as a kid of about your DS' age. No, I did not need therapy.

Why? The stealing was pretty much poor impulse control - 'I see, I waaaant.' Plus, my parents were very old-school strict with getting stuff for me and I was the oldest kid in both my direct and extended family, so I was constantly told that I had to give toys to Cousin Such and Such because they were smaller. I think it was a reaction to that.

As to lying - my parents were, once again, strict and fond of punishing me for transgressions big and small, so I saw no reason not to lie and try to wiggle out of punishment. They told me if I came clean, it would be better for me, but repeated experience showed me the punishment remained the same either way and they never told me ‘we are still disappointed because you did X, but good job for telling the truth.’ So there was no point in not lying. Not to mention they wouldn’t believe me when I really didn’t do something or cut slack for things outside my control, so in my 6-yr-old mind I felt ‘justified.’ I also liked making up tall tales (as opposed to lies to avoid punishment) because it made me feel more important.

I grew out of it – as I got older and felt less powerless in my world and my environment, my desire to lie or steal toys or whatever went away. It helped that I got old enough to understand the social consequences of my actions (no kid who has sticky fingers is going to keep a lot of friends).

I do confess that my relationship with my parents only normalized and got relatively healthy once I moved out. It’s also no coincidence that I married a man quite different in personality from either of them and that I parent my DCs very differently (ironically, my parents have mellowed out and are now incredibly doting on my kids).

I don’t know you, OP, so I can’t judge your parenting skills, but it could be a parent-child style mismatch – try to understand why your kid is like that, and don’t just assume and treat him as a bad seed, as you seem to be.

Your son reminds me of me at that age. My parents were emotionally unavailable, and my mother was very controlling and I used these techniques to manipulate them into getting what I wanted. Also I found real life a bit boring, and making up stories in my mind, and sometimes telling them to other people was entertaining. My youngest who is very bright also did a lot if story telling at age 6. My mother did not allow sweets in the house and I really craved sweets so I stole them. I only got caught once as I recall.

Aside fromm being overweight I grew up fine. I had a very successful career and my kids turned out fine. I still like to fantasize about different lifestyles, but normally I do not share these stories with others. And I only lie to get out of social situations I don't like. I would never steal or do anything to be hurtful to anyone.

I would suggest family therapy. Sometimes the brightest, most independent thinking kid in a family acts out as a foil to other family members or behaves badly because they are less able to handle family stress. You will have to honestly take stock of your whole family dynamic if you want him to get better. He isn't this way because he was born bad!

Your son reminds me of me at that age. My parents were emotionally unavailable, and my mother was very controlling and I used these techniques to manipulate them into getting what I wanted. Also I found real life a bit boring, and making up stories in my mind, and sometimes telling them to other people was entertaining. My youngest who is very bright also did a lot if story telling at age 6. My mother did not allow sweets in the house and I really craved sweets so I stole them. I only got caught once as I recall.

Aside form being overweight I grew up fine. I had a very successful career and my kids turned out fine. I still like to fantasize about different lifestyles, but normally I do share these stories with others. And I only lie to get out of social situations I don't like. I would never steal or do anything to be hurtful to anyone.

I would suggest family therapy. Sometimes the brightest, most independent thinking kid in a family acts out as a foil to other family members or behaves badly because they are less able to handle family stress. You will have to honestly take stock of your whole family dynamic if you want him to get better. He isn't this way becuase he was born bad!

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

One of the summer camp instructors turned him on to the idea of the sign..she stated that another parent previously did that & they never had another problem. Personally, I'm all about giving the tough love (especially at this point) but I see the sign holding idea to lead to extreme emotional distress. We are sick and tired of people telling us that it is "just a phase" or a "kid thing" .. it's been an ongoing problem for over a year. We also have another DS who is 2yrs older and has always been 100% honest and would never ever steal. Our older DS does "tattle" a lot on his younger brother but he also enlightens us to his sketchy behavior that he manages to sneak past us. We are equally loving, fair, and place the same expectations on them both. There are not favorites in our household.

6yr old DS also "steals" snacks out of the kitchen and hides all the trash/wrappers/crumbs in the couch cushions, in his closet, under his bedroom furniture, and in the crack between his bed frame and mattress. Just another example of the ongoing lies/stealing. *We put everything out of reach, "grounded" him from all of his favorite snacks or extras and more. This has happened more than 5 times within the past year.

Trust your instincts. Not the advice of a random camp counselor.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

One of the summer camp instructors turned him on to the idea of the sign..she stated that another parent previously did that & they never had another problem. Personally, I'm all about giving the tough love (especially at this point) but I see the sign holding idea to lead to extreme emotional distress. We are sick and tired of people telling us that it is "just a phase" or a "kid thing" .. it's been an ongoing problem for over a year. We also have another DS who is 2yrs older and has always been 100% honest and would never ever steal. Our older DS does "tattle" a lot on his younger brother but he also enlightens us to his sketchy behavior that he manages to sneak past us. We are equally loving, fair, and place the same expectations on them both. There are not favorites in our household.

6yr old DS also "steals" snacks out of the kitchen and hides all the trash/wrappers/crumbs in the couch cushions, in his closet, under his bedroom furniture, and in the crack between his bed frame and mattress. Just another example of the ongoing lies/stealing. *We put everything out of reach, "grounded" him from all of his favorite snacks or extras and more. This has happened more than 5 times within the past year.

Did the summer camp instructor who "turned him onto the idea of the sign" know what happened to that child's relationship with his parents? Did the child ever trust his parents again? Is that the kind of relationship you want with your child long term? That he remembers you with a sickening feeling of sadism? Is this something you would want to think about as a memory of your parents doing to you?

This is really serious that you would even think of doing this, it's so far beyond normal.

+1. PLEASE do not do this.

Agree.

I know this is a serious problem, and it sounds like you're ready to work with a therapist, which is great.

In the meantime, please, please, please skip the sign-in-front-of-camp approach! Shame is NEVER a good parenting strategy, and it only leads to bigger and worse problems down the road. I'm sure the therapist could explain this in more detail once you get started with him/her.

Good luck!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can tell you that if such an incident occurred at my child's camp I would take photos of the sign and alert CPS. I would also post the story everywhere on the Internet to ensure those parents knew what assholes they are. This is the kind of tale that goes viral on Facebook and people have to move or get death threats.

though I would not advocate such a punishment for a 6 yr old, is this really something CPS would investigate? I would be surprised if CPS did.

Unusual, cruel, and outrageous punishment techniques are illegal.

Anonymous wrote:I can tell you that if such an incident occurred at my child's camp I would take photos of the sign and alert CPS. I would also post the story everywhere on the Internet to ensure those parents knew what assholes they are. This is the kind of tale that goes viral on Facebook and people have to move or get death threats.

though I would not advocate such a punishment for a 6 yr old, is this really something CPS would investigate? I would be surprised if CPS did.