Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I'm not trying to be rude or even mean. I'm being honest. And again, I think this is why infertile women (a) distance themselves a bit from people with kids and/or (b) don't talk about coming to terms with not having children (even with other people who don't have them) because they know the conversation will be filled with suggestions like this -- adopt, volunteer -- and then it feels like they should have guilt on top of their grief, guilt that they actually don't want to do those things; they just want to have a child of their own.

Again, it's not clear why you are in this thread when you don't want to talk about coming to terms with not having children.

You missed my point. It's why OP posts on an online forum instead of talking to friends and family, because in casual conversation, the thing people always suggest is "adopt" or "be a great aunt" or "volunteer"! I think OP is looking for something besides the USUAL and OBVIOUS suggestions.

that's why she specifically posts on a thread for infertility support. And the first PP I responded to is someone who HAS A CHILD!!!

I posted above what I think are helpful suggestions.

It's not that infertile people don't want to come to terms, but I think most get tired of the usual suggestions and so they just stop talking about it. That was my point.

Not OP, but thank you PP for the lovely and thoughtful response.

Anonymous wrote:OP Have you really thought about life without kids -- outside of the context of infertility? I look back on our life before kids -- we had them late -- after years of trying. We were extremely busy and had lots of fun. We traveled. We biked. We went to the country. We spent weeks at the beach (telecommuting) We entertained, sailed, fished, hiked, ate gourmet dinners whenever we felt like it. Took the boat out, rode our horses, visited family, entertained, maintained a second home... Do we sound rich? We weren't -- we just did not have kids.
I know the desire to have kids is a strong one, but there is defiantly a full life without them -- if only you can perceive it. With kids, life is very regimented, it is a lot of work, and a 22 year commitment. Also expensive. You really need to have child free friends to understand what life can be without kids. Just a thought...

I wrote this. I don't mean to say that I was not in pain at the time. I was in great pain and half the time did not really enjoy much of anything. I cried a lot. But moving around, doing something is better than not doing anything. (at least for me) It is a terrible life pain -- a grief that can so easily turn into depression. I have to say that being an "auntie" was not really an option. I found that the friends with little children were very absorbed and protective of their time and involvement with their kids and that is was very painful to be around them. It seemed like their whole LIVES turned around those kids. We did have children (finally! so late in life...) and now, nearly 18 years later, I can say that we would have been OK without kids. But that was certainly not our perspective at the time.
OP, all I can say is be gentle with yourself and give yourself time to heal.

OP I was in your shoes and remember how devastating it felt. But now I'm on the other side, childfree, and have honestly never felt happiness or more optimistic about life. It's like going through a breakup - you have to think about all the bad things to help you get over the person. Parenting is grueling, expensive, thankless, unpredictable. You are escaping a lifetime of worry and heartache. You will not have to be the parent of a special needs child, or a school shooter, or a child who hates the life you've given them and attempts suicide. You can live anywhere without worrying about school districts or needing more space. You can get deep restful sleep. You can give back to the world. The world is open to you. There are no constraints. Start living.

8:24 here.

So I'm the one who doesn't think "be a great aunt!" is a helpful suggestion.

I've explained why.

But now I'll offer what I do think might be helpful.

First, if you are still trying, establish a firm window of time for trying and kind of an endpoint, a point at which you will stop trying (maybe this is a time frame, like one year, or maybe it is event, like one more of X treatment). It doesn't have to be "go for broke," but really just lay out in specific terms how much time and resources and energy you can reasonably give at trying before you can feel like you gave it a good shot and really need to move on.

Second, even if you are still trying, you need to emphasize all of the things that being childfree enables you to do. Get a gym membership or find a hobby or sport or an activity that you can do that would be difficult to incorporate into a life with kids. You need to feel like there are some advantages to not having a child. This is what will stem the jealousy and bitterness. Plan trips or activities -- even if you don't think they will distract you. You need to do something that isn't child-centric to see that there is life without kids.

Third, take a little break from children. I do actually think it's helpful, at least while you are grieving and still sore and hurt that you can't and don't have children, to have time away from "family life" and friends with kids.

It's not to say that at some point you won't want to be around kids again, but I do think that until you are at peace with not having kids, it isn't helpful to spend a lot of time with other people and their kids.

Fourth, find some friends who are childfree by choice. There are plenty. I think when you are trying so hard to have a kid, it feels like everyone else is either pregnant or has kids. It feels like you are the only one. Being around people who willingly don't have children is enormously refreshing. They give you a perspective you are missing -- that life can be meaningful even if you aren't a parent.

I am going through yet another miscarriage, and the reality is hitting me that even though I can get pregnant, it seems like there's a very real possibility I can't sustain a pregnancy. For a number of reasons, DE, surrogacy and even adoption aren't feasible options for us, so it is looking like we just won't have children. We have determined a set number of additional months we are going to try and we decided that if we get pregnant and miscarry again, we are done. I actually feel better knowing that there is an end to the struggle.

The other night, I went out with a couple of old friends I hadn't seen in a while. Both are childfree by CHOICE. It was just what I needed. I realized that I have had blinders on and have been entirely too focused on children, as if that is the thing that will make or break my life. Being around women who are happily childfree, not talking about children or parenting or any of that was the best thing for me. Neither of these women dislike children, but they both have meaningful, fulfilled lives that don't center around children. And it's exactly what I needed to be around.

I'm not going to disown my friends with kids, but I know that until I either have a kid OR make peace with not having them, I need to limit the time I spend around them. It's just a temporary thing, because I do believe that if I don't have a kid, I will eventually make peace with it. But I do need to have the space and the right environment to make that peace. I love my friends with kids and I love their kids, but I know I need some time away. Even unintentionally, one friend will say something like "She's all I've got" about her daughter. And it stings, because even though she doesn't mean to be hurtful, what is implied is that without a child, she has nothing. Until I'm okay with not having kids, I just need a break from that.

That's my plan. And is one that I've given a lot of thought to.

PP, I think this is really well stated, and something that some people underestimate. I've seen couples that are so single-minded about pursuing their baby that they lose sight of everything else, at tremendous personal cost. I think that sometimes the infertility community feeds on itself a little too much, and we put everything on hold, including our other relationships. I remember being so angry at my brother and his wife for getting pregnant with their third child, and then I realized that I had lost all perspective.

+1 Not to knock the RE profession, but they will be the first to say "keep trying! ... as long as you can pay"

PP here. I appreciate your response. Part of my comment was prompted by the frequent expression on these boards of needing to avoid pregnant friends/people with children because it's so painful. It's heartbreaking because it seems like you're doubly cheated then-- of a child and then of your other relationships. OP said herself that it feels fake to engage in a lot of activities meant to distract from the pain of infertility and asked for alternative ways to cope. I simply wanted to offer some thoughts on the counter approach.

I'm sure what you say about other parents' reaction is frequently true, and I didn't mean to gloss over the potential difficulty of it. I should have expressed more thoughtfully how it might come about, but an obvious prerequisite is having friends or family with whom you have a close, trusting relationship and share similar values. In my experience, many people are indeed open to-- and often crave-- someone else bonding strongly with their child. For our family, my son's godfather is that person. He's a single guy, my husband's closest friend. We love him, respect, would trust our children's lives with him. He's often with us on or around holidays (he has his own extended family), always for birthday celebrations. He attends my child's school as the honored invitee on grandparent's day where they read and do a project together, have lunch, watch the class presentations. My husband and I both have wonderful extended family and siblings we are close to but they live far away. DS's godfather fills a void in our lives and we are blessed to have him. I see similar dynamics among friends' families in DC, as so many of us moved away from our hometowns and families of origin.

OUCH! Once again another poster said the hurtful response so much better than the person going through it. A single guy really knows the pain of infertility and solves it all by hanging around this poster's wonderful children.
That is somewhat like saying, "oh your Dad died? Sorry to hear that! Mine is in a nursing home. I will give you the schedule and you can visit him at Sunny Horizons! He's a Dad, too"
PP I would respectfully suggest you keep your thoughts to yourself when you are around infertile people IRL. Seriously.

Anonymous wrote:

I'm not trying to be rude or even mean. I'm being honest. And again, I think this is why infertile women (a) distance themselves a bit from people with kids and/or (b) don't talk about coming to terms with not having children (even with other people who don't have them) because they know the conversation will be filled with suggestions like this -- adopt, volunteer -- and then it feels like they should have guilt on top of their grief, guilt that they actually don't want to do those things; they just want to have a child of their own.

Again, it's not clear why you are in this thread when you don't want to talk about coming to terms with not having children.

Anonymous wrote:
This is a forum. One person posts an opinion, and other people respond. I wasn't rude. I wasn't mean. I acknowledged that PP meant well, but I still think it's naive.

It's great that your nieces and nephews have helped you move forward. But I still think that most infertile women get tired of hearing the "be a really involved aunt!" as a way to comfort them and accept not having children.

It's like the the "just adopt!" suggestion. Sure, there are people who did adopt and it worked for them. But most infertile women still get tired of that suggestion because it isn't as easy or as simple as it seems.

So while the "be a great aunt!" thing has worked for you, I still think that it's a suggestion that is rolled out a lot that usually just makes infertile women feel bad. The idea is "borrow someone else's kids to parent!"

And I would add that the whole nieces and nephews thing is something that is completely out a of an infertile person's control. I only have one nephew (there will only be one). And his mother, my SIL, is very overbearing, controlling and has already suggested he won't be allowed over to my house because I have a dog. I have friends with kids, and I know those friends trust me around their kids and love me, but there really isn't a way to insert myself in their lives more than what happens organically.

The Big Sister suggestion is great, as is volunteering, but I also think this is something that gets bandied about a lot with infertile women (like the adopt). And it falls into the same category as fostering or adopting an older child. It's great and noble, but it comes with its own set of challenges, and wanting to have a child isn't the same as wanting to work with older children who are either at risk, have issues, or are dealing with heavy stuff.

I'm not trying to be rude or even mean. I'm being honest. And again, I think this is why infertile women (a) distance themselves a bit from people with kids and/or (b) don't talk about coming to terms with not having children (even with other people who don't have them) because they know the conversation will be filled with suggestions like this -- adopt, volunteer -- and then it feels like they should have guilt on top of their grief, guilt that they actually don't want to do those things; they just want to have a child of their own.

NP here. I get that, but the OP can't or won't have kids of her own. What is YOUR suggestion for a way for her to move forward?

Again, you are missing the point of the thread. The point of the thread was not "how can I avoid receiving the same suggestions over and over again?" The point of the thread was how to move forward. People are trying to share how they found meaning and happiness EVEN THOUGH THEY COULDN'T HAVE BABIES.

If you want to be stuck forever rolling your eyes at how cliche it is when people suggest that you volunteer with kids or be involved with friends' kids or relatives, then maybe you shouldn't click on a thread where the OP is asking for suggestions about making life move forward.

Anonymous wrote:NP here. OP asked for ways forward. So when people offer their opinions, it's rude to call them naive. Of course being a godparent isn't the same as being a parent. And riding horses and enjoying a beach house isn't the same as being a parent. But guess what? If she's not going to be a parent, then she needs to find a way to move on. Sitting around saying, nope, nope, nope, that's not going to do it, is NOT a solution.

And I beg to differ on your opinion--I have 12 nieces and nephews and I feel absolutely integral to their lives. I vacation with them, take them for movies and special outings, attend their performances. I tutor one of them and go to art events with another who is a budding artist. I get phone calls every day from one of my nieces or nephews who can't wait to tell me what happened in their day.

Another friend of mine has been a Big Sister for more than eight years now. They got together at least once a month to do things together, and that young woman just graduated from high school and is off to community college. My friend is thrilled, and can't wait to help her Little Sister ready for college.

Do I ever wonder if my life had been different if I had children? Of course. But I don't feel that it's made my life any less wonderful and full--it's just different.

PS. I also have a dog that I adore and spoil!

This is a forum. One person posts an opinion, and other people respond. I wasn't rude. I wasn't mean. I acknowledged that PP meant well, but I still think it's naive.

It's great that your nieces and nephews have helped you move forward. But I still think that most infertile women get tired of hearing the "be a really involved aunt!" as a way to comfort them and accept not having children.

It's like the the "just adopt!" suggestion. Sure, there are people who did adopt and it worked for them. But most infertile women still get tired of that suggestion because it isn't as easy or as simple as it seems.

So while the "be a great aunt!" thing has worked for you, I still think that it's a suggestion that is rolled out a lot that usually just makes infertile women feel bad. The idea is "borrow someone else's kids to parent!"

And I would add that the whole nieces and nephews thing is something that is completely out a of an infertile person's control. I only have one nephew (there will only be one). And his mother, my SIL, is very overbearing, controlling and has already suggested he won't be allowed over to my house because I have a dog. I have friends with kids, and I know those friends trust me around their kids and love me, but there really isn't a way to insert myself in their lives more than what happens organically.

The Big Sister suggestion is great, as is volunteering, but I also think this is something that gets bandied about a lot with infertile women (like the adopt). And it falls into the same category as fostering or adopting an older child. It's great and noble, but it comes with its own set of challenges, and wanting to have a child isn't the same as wanting to work with older children who are either at risk, have issues, or are dealing with heavy stuff.

I'm not trying to be rude or even mean. I'm being honest. And again, I think this is why infertile women (a) distance themselves a bit from people with kids and/or (b) don't talk about coming to terms with not having children (even with other people who don't have them) because they know the conversation will be filled with suggestions like this -- adopt, volunteer -- and then it feels like they should have guilt on top of their grief, guilt that they actually don't want to do those things; they just want to have a child of their own.

We went through 5 years of IF over a decade ago. Things finally really turned around after we had a plan of what we'd do if treatment failed. We seriously considered our options and finances and what we had left in emotional reserves (this was much tougher on me - female- than DH) and decided we would adopt internationally. We worked on that as well as finishing up our treatment. We set an end to treatment.

Once those decisions were made, my depressed attitude improved tremendously. Basically, knowing that we'd have a child either biologically or through adoption within a year made all the difference. I think you have to really do the soul searching about what your and DH's bottom line is and figure out the next and "final" steps, and get to work on them for it to get past the seemingly endless part of IF.

Good luck OP. There are many of us who have followed a similar path who've had similar heartbreak.

NP here. OP asked for ways forward. So when people offer their opinions, it's rude to call them naive. Of course being a godparent isn't the same as being a parent. And riding horses and enjoying a beach house isn't the same as being a parent. But guess what? If she's not going to be a parent, then she needs to find a way to move on. Sitting around saying, nope, nope, nope, that's not going to do it, is NOT a solution.

And I beg to differ on your opinion--I have 12 nieces and nephews and I feel absolutely integral to their lives. I vacation with them, take them for movies and special outings, attend their performances. I tutor one of them and go to art events with another who is a budding artist. I get phone calls every day from one of my nieces or nephews who can't wait to tell me what happened in their day.

Another friend of mine has been a Big Sister for more than eight years now. They got together at least once a month to do things together, and that young woman just graduated from high school and is off to community college. My friend is thrilled, and can't wait to help her Little Sister ready for college.

Do I ever wonder if my life had been different if I had children? Of course. But I don't feel that it's made my life any less wonderful and full--it's just different.

PS. I also have a dog that I adore and spoil!

I'm sorry, but this shows me that you really don't get it. Attending birthday celebrations and school performances and having lunch with children of friends and relatives is great, but it doesn't even come close to filling the desire to be a mother, a parent -- to have a role in a child's life where you are making significant decisions about how they are raised. To suggest that somehow women who want to be mothers but can't are going to feel better because their friend or relative lets them come to all of the birthday parties and graduations is kind of naive.

I'm sure you mean well, but my sense is that OP posted to get responses from women who can't have children and have moved on, because they understand what I've written above and have figured out a way to come to terms with it.

I'm not suggesting your son's godfather isn't special to you, but to suggest that that role comes anywhere near filling a void of not having your children is naive. And while I'm sure you trust your son's godfather and would leave your children with him, I highly doubt you consult with him on big parenting decisions. And I'm not saying you should. But the difference between liking children and wanting to have children is the people who want to have children want to have that kind of a role -- of a parent. And to infertile women, there's something sort of offensive about this idea that somehow being invited to all of the events is enough pretend parenting to fill a void in their lives.

Again, I know you mean well. But I think your (well-intentioned though it may be) response is part of the reason why, at least for a while, infertile women who are coming to terms with not having children have to distances themselves a bit from people with kids, because they get a lot of suggestions like this and it kind of makes it all feel worse.