Anonymous
06/01/2014 16:35
Subject: Ever cry at an IEP meeting?
I am hijacking but the pp who included a link to the document about child development, much of what is stated as fact re milestones is supposition not fact. We don't really know much about children whose development falls outside of those timelines and it is known that there are not "windows that close".
I agree with you that it's best if parents don't put off getting support for their children.
Anonymous
06/01/2014 16:31
Subject: Ever cry at an IEP meeting?
Op,
I've never cried but I've felt wretched before and after IEP meetings. My child is at a great school now with a great administration and I still feel like throwing up after each meeting.
We had to fight to get an iep back when kid was in K. We went through hell in the later years of elementary when he had to deal with a horrible administration and a sadistic special ed teacher. It aged dh and I by a decade.
We never would have survived without an advocate. We have worked with 3 over the years. One wasn't worth the money, another didn't have time to help much and didn't charge much, and the last advocate walks on water as far as I'm concerned. We also had to hire a lawyer and the group we used were less helpful than the advocate but necessary to help us fight the school.
I've been through this for over a decade and have been on the Wrightslaw website and read the books and participated in other forums and have worked with other parents and I'm still amazed by how little I know and how easily Ive been manipulated. Even with the advocate, I leave the meetings second guessing the decisions we made. We also get pointed in so many "helpful" directions as far as therapies outside of the school on our dime that I don't know which to prioritize.
I also agree with 05/28/2014 08:45. When we were dealing with our most contentious situation, we were able to get supervisory special ed staff involved in our case and they reined in the very unprofessional, ignorant, rude, elementary staff. As the pp said, there was no oversight of the elementary staff and they were ignoring my child's IEP and were making up rules that didn't exist that all served their purpose of denying services. The supervisory staff brought an atmosphere of professionalism. We still needed our advocate but the school staff no longer insulted and screamed at us.
I've never cried but I've felt wretched before and after IEP meetings. My child is at a great school now with a great administration and I still feel like throwing up after each meeting.
We had to fight to get an iep back when kid was in K. We went through hell in the later years of elementary when he had to deal with a horrible administration and a sadistic special ed teacher. It aged dh and I by a decade.
We never would have survived without an advocate. We have worked with 3 over the years. One wasn't worth the money, another didn't have time to help much and didn't charge much, and the last advocate walks on water as far as I'm concerned. We also had to hire a lawyer and the group we used were less helpful than the advocate but necessary to help us fight the school.
I've been through this for over a decade and have been on the Wrightslaw website and read the books and participated in other forums and have worked with other parents and I'm still amazed by how little I know and how easily Ive been manipulated. Even with the advocate, I leave the meetings second guessing the decisions we made. We also get pointed in so many "helpful" directions as far as therapies outside of the school on our dime that I don't know which to prioritize.
I also agree with 05/28/2014 08:45. When we were dealing with our most contentious situation, we were able to get supervisory special ed staff involved in our case and they reined in the very unprofessional, ignorant, rude, elementary staff. As the pp said, there was no oversight of the elementary staff and they were ignoring my child's IEP and were making up rules that didn't exist that all served their purpose of denying services. The supervisory staff brought an atmosphere of professionalism. We still needed our advocate but the school staff no longer insulted and screamed at us.
Anonymous
05/28/2014 11:33
Subject: Re:Ever cry at an IEP meeting?
Anonymous wrote:Yes! I think the advocates are not worth the money. Get your psychiatrist, tester, or tutor in there to explain precisely what your child's needs are and why.
Because, of course, once the school team hears precisely what your child's needs are and why, they'll be sure and get your child just that!
Yeah, I agree that schools will just ignore what they don't want to hear. We had our child's speech therapist listen in on the whole IEP meeting and she commented clearly on our child's needs, but to no avail. We got the IEP, but none of the speech services that were necessary.
We have had good experience with an advocate and an attorney, but the best experience was when I complained in writing to a special ed supervisor outside the school in the central county office. My letter was factual about the ways in which the school was violating the law and refusing to provide the services for which we had clearly demonstrated need. It worked wonderfully!
The problem is that there is basically no oversight of the school-based IEP process except in terms of procedural timelines that must be met by law. Because of this, as long as the procedure has been followed, it doesn't matter whether the school has rely complied with the substance of the law. Some of this is probably due to the reluctance of courts to second guess the "educational decisions" of the "experts" (aka teachers and administrators) except in really egregious cases.
OP here. It's nice (and sad) to know I'm not alone in this. One of the reasons I'm so very frustrated is precisely, as the above poster noted, that as long as procedure has been followed, it doesn't matter whether the school has complied with the substance of the law. We continue to hit this. We get into this loop where the school team points to the procedure, saying that they followed it and, therefore, their decision is correct. I understand they need a framework/procedure to better ensure rights are respected and laws are followed but they also need understanding of the overall environment the law creates. It's so very frustrating.
I am PP to which you are commenting. One thing that I think would really change the dynamic is a change in the Burden of Proof. Typically in the law, the burden of proof rests with the moving party in civil complaints. IDEA originally had nothing to say about which party bears the burden of proof in actions brought under its statute, so courts interpreted the burden of proof to be with the moving party as in many other fields of law/civil complaints. The problem is that the moving party is almost always the parents because the parents are the ones who are unhappy with a school decision.
If the burden of proof were changed, and the burden was on the school system to show that it had made a reasonable IEP instead of on the parents to prove that the IEP is unreasonable, then I think things would change significantly for the better in special education. The school system would feel more obligated to provide services, since they would have to justify not providing them if brought to court. It would be in the school system's interest to work with parents to make them happy so that claims are not brought.
Now, with the burden of proof on the parents, school systems feel comfortable flouting the substance of the law (and often even procedural aspects) since they know it is costly and thus rare for parents to continue to contest IEPs since it costs them a lot of $$ in lawyer's fees and expert witnesses (not to mention time) upfront.
Burden of proof legislation failed last season in Maryland, but it will be brought up again in the fall. In this election season, I encourage everyone to ask their elected officials and other candidates where they stand on this important issue.
See www.burdenofproofmd.org
Anonymous
05/28/2014 09:52
Subject: Re:Ever cry at an IEP meeting?
Yes! I think the advocates are not worth the money. Get your psychiatrist, tester, or tutor in there to explain precisely what your child's needs are and why.
Because, of course, once the school team hears precisely what your child's needs are and why, they'll be sure and get your child just that!
Yeah, I agree that schools will just ignore what they don't want to hear. We had our child's speech therapist listen in on the whole IEP meeting and she commented clearly on our child's needs, but to no avail. We got the IEP, but none of the speech services that were necessary.
We have had good experience with an advocate and an attorney, but the best experience was when I complained in writing to a special ed supervisor outside the school in the central county office. My letter was factual about the ways in which the school was violating the law and refusing to provide the services for which we had clearly demonstrated need. It worked wonderfully!
The problem is that there is basically no oversight of the school-based IEP process except in terms of procedural timelines that must be met by law. Because of this, as long as the procedure has been followed, it doesn't matter whether the school has rely complied with the substance of the law. Some of this is probably due to the reluctance of courts to second guess the "educational decisions" of the "experts" (aka teachers and administrators) except in really egregious cases.
OP here. It's nice (and sad) to know I'm not alone in this. One of the reasons I'm so very frustrated is precisely, as the above poster noted, that as long as procedure has been followed, it doesn't matter whether the school has complied with the substance of the law. We continue to hit this. We get into this loop where the school team points to the procedure, saying that they followed it and, therefore, their decision is correct. I understand they need a framework/procedure to better ensure rights are respected and laws are followed but they also need understanding of the overall environment the law creates. It's so very frustrating.
Anonymous
05/28/2014 08:45
Subject: Re:Ever cry at an IEP meeting?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I generally have felt like educational advocates have not been a good use of money for us, but one of the few good things ive felt an advocate did for us during a contentioous iep meeting when there was arguing, the advocate called a five minute break and had us step outside and take a breath
Yes! I think the advocates are not worth the money. Get your psychiatrist, tester, or tutor in there to explain precisely what your child's needs are and why.
Because, of course, once the school team hears precisely what your child's needs are and why, they'll be sure and get your child just that!
Yeah, I agree that schools will just ignore what they don't want to hear. We had our child's speech therapist listen in on the whole IEP meeting and she commented clearly on our child's needs, but to no avail. We got the IEP, but none of the speech services that were necessary.
We have had good experience with an advocate and an attorney, but the best experience was when I complained in writing to a special ed supervisor outside the school in the central county office. My letter was factual about the ways in which the school was violating the law and refusing to provide the services for which we had clearly demonstrated need. It worked wonderfully!
The problem is that there is basically no oversight of the school-based IEP process except in terms of procedural timelines that must be met by law. Because of this, as long as the procedure has been followed, it doesn't matter whether the school has rely complied with the substance of the law. Some of this is probably due to the reluctance of courts to second guess the "educational decisions" of the "experts" (aka teachers and administrators) except in really egregious cases.
Anonymous
05/28/2014 08:21
Subject: Re:Ever cry at an IEP meeting?
To those who have traumatic meetings, are your relationships with the IEP team good outside of the meeting room? My daughter's case worker is one of my favorite people on the planet and I know she's always looking out for us.
I highly, highly recommend the Wrightslaw conferences on IEPs -- it's about $100 for a full day of every aspect of IEPs. Looks like the next closest one is in Quantico in August. http://www.wrightslaw.com/speak/schedule.htm
I second Wrightslaw. It is very informative. To answer your first question, it depends. Generally if was a difference of opinion, then we had a working relationship- if it was because of incompetence- then they never acknowledged us outside of the IEP meetings (including the MS Principal). It's funny, the MS Principal kept introducing herself to me as if we never met- every time. It became a running joke in our house. She was the most clueless regarding the types of issues DC faced and the solutions to those issues.
Anonymous
05/28/2014 08:00
Subject: Re:Ever cry at an IEP meeting?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
My best suggestion for any IEP meeting is bring a digital recorder*, and put it on the table and say "If you don't mind, we would like to record the meeting for our records."
I have to disagree that this is a universally good idea. I have a great relationship with our IEP teams and they serve my child well. I have been at this for ten years now and I believe that the cooperative relationship we have is a great benefit to my child. I would never risk this by putting a recorder on the table unless I had a reason to mistrust the team.
You're right, I guess I should have qualified it (rather than stating it as good for any IEP). The situation we were in was one where we were having hostile remarks from the staff directed toward us, and uneducated questions like "Why does your son keep repeating the same thing over and over?" … and these are educators who are supposed to be trained in dealing with children with special needs!! It's not that uncommon for an autistic child to repeat a given phrase over and over!
I agree with the previous poster that if you have a good relationship with your IEP team, then this might seem like a hostile move on your part, to introduce the recorder. It will signal that you don't trust them, and/or you may try to use their own words against them at some future time. In our case that was exactly what we needed! So, be mindful of your current situation and apply my suggestions as appropriate to your needs. And realize that those suggestions were coming from a time & place where we felt that we were being stonewalled, and none of our suggestions or recommendations for his placement and needs were getting through. After we implemented the recorder & me (the Father) being involved (along with an Educational Consultant), things began to change for the better.
[b]I am probably jinxing myself (IEP meeting next week!), but more than ever I feel extraordinarily lucky that my DC has a team that makes it anything but contentious. Now I worry that I've been doing something wrong all these years. Am I not asking for enough?[b]
In my experience with 3 different schools and 5 principals, the school administrator at the meeting can make a big difference in the tone. If parents feel their concerns and ideas are taken seriously in the process then it feels like a collaborative effort, as it should be. The worst meetings (and the ones where my child's rights and protections were seriously violated) was with an Assistant School Administrator who conspired to withhold info. that showed problems my daughter was having and prompted school personnel on what to say prior to the meeting. It is NEVER a good meeting when the school administrator dictates what can be discussed and what cannot be discussed (red flags should go up with this type of announcement at the beginning).
As far as if you are asking for enough -
Is your child making progress towards his/her goals?
What data is being presented to support the goals are being met?
What new goals should your child be transitioning as he/her gets older and the curriculum becomes more challenges?
Does the team consider your concerns and your child's needs for services?
If you are happy with the answers to these questions, I would say you should count your child lucky and be happy with the team at your school.
To those who have traumatic meetings, are your relationships with the IEP team good outside of the meeting room? My daughter's case worker is one of my favorite people on the planet and I know she's always looking out for us.
I highly, highly recommend the Wrightslaw conferences on IEPs -- it's about $100 for a full day of every aspect of IEPs. Looks like the next closest one is in Quantico in August. http://www.wrightslaw.com/speak/schedule.htm
Anonymous
05/28/2014 07:41
Subject: Re:Ever cry at an IEP meeting?
Either cry or get a bad headache. I didn't go to the last one; husband went alone. I had to take care of myself and avoid the no-win situation. Sick and disgusted with the dishonesty. I know all schools are not like this one. Just disgusting.
Anonymous
05/27/2014 21:15
Subject: Re:Ever cry at an IEP meeting?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I generally have felt like educational advocates have not been a good use of money for us, but one of the few good things ive felt an advocate did for us during a contentioous iep meeting when there was arguing, the advocate called a five minute break and had us step outside and take a breath
Yes! I think the advocates are not worth the money. Get your psychiatrist, tester, or tutor in there to explain precisely what your child's needs are and why.
Because, of course, once the school team hears precisely what your child's needs are and why, they'll be sure and get your child just that!
Different PP chiming in - I've had success with my daughter's tutor coming to the meeting. She has a Masters in Special Ed and 25 years of experience working with children with disabilities. I could say the same thing, however, because she is a third party the team seems to accept her professional opinion. She also is well versed in the teacher speak and knows what are considered "best practices" in particular situations. The tutor has the ability to gather independent data if need be and is well on top of what my daughter is struggling with in school. As a parent it is hard to be objective, so she is able to tune in at meetings and help mediate compromise when it is in my daughter's best interest.
Anonymous
05/26/2014 18:13
Subject: Re:Ever cry at an IEP meeting?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I generally have felt like educational advocates have not been a good use of money for us, but one of the few good things ive felt an advocate did for us during a contentioous iep meeting when there was arguing, the advocate called a five minute break and had us step outside and take a breath
Yes! I think the advocates are not worth the money. Get your psychiatrist, tester, or tutor in there to explain precisely what your child's needs are and why.
Because, of course, once the school team hears precisely what your child's needs are and why, they'll be sure and get your child just that!
Anonymous
05/26/2014 13:30
Subject: Re:Ever cry at an IEP meeting?
Anonymous wrote:I generally have felt like educational advocates have not been a good use of money for us, but one of the few good things ive felt an advocate did for us during a contentioous iep meeting when there was arguing, the advocate called a five minute break and had us step outside and take a breath
Yes! I think the advocates are not worth the money. Get your psychiatrist, tester, or tutor in there to explain precisely what your child's needs are and why.
NOVATransplant
05/26/2014 12:21
Subject: Ever cry at an IEP meeting?
Anonymous wrote:I did today for the first time ever. We were there with our advocate - who's good and I'm grateful she was there to handle things. It's so odd as you don't think it's the parents who would be trying to convince someone that their kid isn't an achiever. I feel like we've done it to ourselves because we've paid for so much therapy and tutoring. If we'd just done less, he'd have made less progress and they'd better see how much assistance he needs. This feeling is a 180 degrees from a few years ago when I would beat myself up for not doing more - afraid that what we were doing was enough. I feel like just saying fuck it and discontinuing our private interventions. Yet, when it comes down to it, I can't do anything other than what I think will help him. As you all know, the time, energy and resources it takes is huge. I feel so defeated, ineffective and screwed. That's why I cried.
Every one. Every time.
Anonymous
05/26/2014 11:19
Subject: Re:Ever cry at an IEP meeting?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
My best suggestion for any IEP meeting is bring a digital recorder*, and put it on the table and say "If you don't mind, we would like to record the meeting for our records."
I have to disagree that this is a universally good idea. I have a great relationship with our IEP teams and they serve my child well. I have been at this for ten years now and I believe that the cooperative relationship we have is a great benefit to my child. I would never risk this by putting a recorder on the table unless I had a reason to mistrust the team.
You're right, I guess I should have qualified it (rather than stating it as good for any IEP). The situation we were in was one where we were having hostile remarks from the staff directed toward us, and uneducated questions like "Why does your son keep repeating the same thing over and over?" … and these are educators who are supposed to be trained in dealing with children with special needs!! It's not that uncommon for an autistic child to repeat a given phrase over and over!
I agree with the previous poster that if you have a good relationship with your IEP team, then this might seem like a hostile move on your part, to introduce the recorder. It will signal that you don't trust them, and/or you may try to use their own words against them at some future time. In our case that was exactly what we needed! So, be mindful of your current situation and apply my suggestions as appropriate to your needs. And realize that those suggestions were coming from a time & place where we felt that we were being stonewalled, and none of our suggestions or recommendations for his placement and needs were getting through. After we implemented the recorder & me (the Father) being involved (along with an Educational Consultant), things began to change for the better.
[b]I am probably jinxing myself (IEP meeting next week!), but more than ever I feel extraordinarily lucky that my DC has a team that makes it anything but contentious. Now I worry that I've been doing something wrong all these years. Am I not asking for enough?[b]
In my experience with 3 different schools and 5 principals, the school administrator at the meeting can make a big difference in the tone. If parents feel their concerns and ideas are taken seriously in the process then it feels like a collaborative effort, as it should be. The worst meetings (and the ones where my child's rights and protections were seriously violated) was with an Assistant School Administrator who conspired to withhold info. that showed problems my daughter was having and prompted school personnel on what to say prior to the meeting. It is NEVER a good meeting when the school administrator dictates what can be discussed and what cannot be discussed (red flags should go up with this type of announcement at the beginning).
As far as if you are asking for enough -
Is your child making progress towards his/her goals?
What data is being presented to support the goals are being met?
What new goals should your child be transitioning as he/her gets older and the curriculum becomes more challenges?
Does the team consider your concerns and your child's needs for services?
If you are happy with the answers to these questions, I would say you should count your child lucky and be happy with the team at your school.