Anonymous
05/18/2014 10:26
Subject: Re:HGC demographics
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Actually, the American perspective is that talent and hard-work should be rewarded. That's why so many people from other countries come here.
Americans today don't follow this perspective. School is play time. College is drinking and frat time. People come here from other countries because there is less competition (Americans are uneducated), lower taxes, and less government intrusion/instability.
Asians and Indians educated in their home countries must work hard. The population and competition is much higher. There is a cultural expectation that children and young adults will work hard and achieve not find themselves while spending 7 years to get an english or education major while their parents support them.
Then why do Indians score so horribly on international educational assessment tests like the PISA?
Specifically, India was 73rd out of 74 countries in the 2009 PISA. They did beat Kyrgyztan, so that's something I guess. Please tell us more about this wondrous educational system they have there where everybody works hard and achieves.
You may be right. Education is not accessible to many poor children in India, and many more children only get a rudimentary education that enables them to read and write. However, if you compare any child being educated in major metropolitan cities of India - the standard is extremely high.
But why talk about all the kids in India? Let's talk about the Indian kids who are here...they are doing exceedingly well. They come from intact families, their parents are successful and engaged with them, their college will be paid for (in most cases) and they will excel in school.
When given the same opportunities in MCPS that is available to all students in MoCo (including children of your race) - Indians (and Asians) are doing better.
Maybe it is their genes and superior brains because as you pointed out India is low down in PISA.
Asians in the US outscore Asians in every county in the world on international tests.
Whites in the US are very near the top when compared to white kids in europe/canada etc. on international tests.
Hispanics in the US outscore every majority Hispanic country in the world on international tests.
Clearly the educational system here sucks and is grossly inferior to the educational system in the rest of the world.
WRT the performance of Indians and Asians in MoCo (who I agree are doing very well), do you believe that they're a representative sampling of the countries they're from? We both know the answer to that. I work in IT, so I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the Asian and Indian kids in MoCo are significantly smarter than average; I know their parents are. But that wasn't really my point; my point is that the educational system in the US isn't nearly as bad as most people want to make it out to be.
? Where did you get this from?
Read this: http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2010/12/amazing-truth-about-pisa-scores-usa.html
Obviously not definitive, but the same analysis has been done elsewhere and reached the same conclusion. From the posting:
The mean score of Americans with European ancestry is 524, compared to 506 in Europe, when first and second generation immigrants are excluded.
For Asian-American students (remember this includes Vietnam, Thailand and other less developed countries outside Northeast Asia), the mean PISA score is 534, same as 533 for the average of Japan, South Korea, Singapore and Hong Kong.
Anonymous
05/18/2014 10:18
Subject: Re:HGC demographics
Interesting take on PISA test in US.
http://news.stanford.edu/news/2013/january/test-scores-ranking-011513.html
some highlights:
The report also found:
There is an achievement gap between more and less disadvantaged students in every country; surprisingly, that gap is smaller in the United States than in similar post-industrial countries, and not much larger than in the very highest scoring countries.
Achievement of U.S. disadvantaged students has been rising rapidly over time, while achievement of disadvantaged students in countries to which the United States is frequently unfavorably compared – Canada, Finland and Korea, for example – has been falling rapidly.
But the highest social class students in United States do worse than their peers in other nations, and this gap widened from 2000 to 2009 on the PISA.
U.S. PISA scores are depressed partly because of a sampling flaw resulting in a disproportionate number of students from high-poverty schools among the test-takers. About 40 percent of the PISA sample in the United States was drawn from schools where half or more of the students are eligible for the free lunch program, though only 32 percent of students nationwide attend such schools.
http://news.stanford.edu/news/2013/january/test-scores-ranking-011513.html
some highlights:
The report also found:
There is an achievement gap between more and less disadvantaged students in every country; surprisingly, that gap is smaller in the United States than in similar post-industrial countries, and not much larger than in the very highest scoring countries.
Achievement of U.S. disadvantaged students has been rising rapidly over time, while achievement of disadvantaged students in countries to which the United States is frequently unfavorably compared – Canada, Finland and Korea, for example – has been falling rapidly.
But the highest social class students in United States do worse than their peers in other nations, and this gap widened from 2000 to 2009 on the PISA.
U.S. PISA scores are depressed partly because of a sampling flaw resulting in a disproportionate number of students from high-poverty schools among the test-takers. About 40 percent of the PISA sample in the United States was drawn from schools where half or more of the students are eligible for the free lunch program, though only 32 percent of students nationwide attend such schools.
Anonymous
05/18/2014 10:11
Subject: Re:HGC demographics
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Actually, the American perspective is that talent and hard-work should be rewarded. That's why so many people from other countries come here.
Americans today don't follow this perspective. School is play time. College is drinking and frat time. People come here from other countries because there is less competition (Americans are uneducated), lower taxes, and less government intrusion/instability.
Asians and Indians educated in their home countries must work hard. The population and competition is much higher. There is a cultural expectation that children and young adults will work hard and achieve not find themselves while spending 7 years to get an english or education major while their parents support them.
Then why do Indians score so horribly on international educational assessment tests like the PISA?
Specifically, India was 73rd out of 74 countries in the 2009 PISA. They did beat Kyrgyztan, so that's something I guess. Please tell us more about this wondrous educational system they have there where everybody works hard and achieves.
You may be right. Education is not accessible to many poor children in India, and many more children only get a rudimentary education that enables them to read and write. However, if you compare any child being educated in major metropolitan cities of India - the standard is extremely high.
But why talk about all the kids in India? Let's talk about the Indian kids who are here...they are doing exceedingly well. They come from intact families, their parents are successful and engaged with them, their college will be paid for (in most cases) and they will excel in school.
When given the same opportunities in MCPS that is available to all students in MoCo (including children of your race) - Indians (and Asians) are doing better.
Maybe it is their genes and superior brains because as you pointed out India is low down in PISA.
Asians in the US outscore Asians in every county in the world on international tests.
Whites in the US are very near the top when compared to white kids in europe/canada etc. on international tests.
Hispanics in the US outscore every majority Hispanic country in the world on international tests.
Clearly the educational system here sucks and is grossly inferior to the educational system in the rest of the world.
WRT the performance of Indians and Asians in MoCo (who I agree are doing very well), do you believe that they're a representative sampling of the countries they're from? We both know the answer to that. I work in IT, so I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the Asian and Indian kids in MoCo are significantly smarter than average; I know their parents are. But that wasn't really my point; my point is that the educational system in the US isn't nearly as bad as most people want to make it out to be.
? Where did you get this from?
Anonymous
05/18/2014 09:58
Subject: Re:HGC demographics
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
Specifically, India was 73rd out of 74 countries in the 2009 PISA. They did beat Kyrgyztan, so that's something I guess. Please tell us more about this wondrous educational system they have there where everybody works hard and achieves.
You may be right. Education is not accessible to many poor children in India, and many more children only get a rudimentary education that enables them to read and write. However, if you compare any child being educated in major metropolitan cities of India - the standard is extremely high.
But why talk about all the kids in India? Let's talk about the Indian kids who are here...they are doing exceedingly well. They come from intact families, their parents are successful and engaged with them, their college will be paid for (in most cases) and they will excel in school.
When given the same opportunities in MCPS that is available to all students in MoCo (including children of your race) - Indians (and Asians) are doing better.
Maybe it is their genes and superior brains because as you pointed out India is low down in PISA.
Asians in the US outscore Asians in every county in the world on international tests.
Whites in the US are very near the top when compared to white kids in europe/canada etc. on international tests.
Hispanics in the US outscore every majority Hispanic country in the world on international tests.
Clearly the educational system here sucks and is grossly inferior to the educational system in the rest of the world.
WRT the performance of Indians and Asians in MoCo (who I agree are doing very well), do you believe that they're a representative sampling of the countries they're from? We both know the answer to that. I work in IT, so I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the Asian and Indian kids in MoCo are significantly smarter than average; I know their parents are. But that wasn't really my point; my point is that the educational system in the US isn't nearly as bad as most people want to make it out to be.
So you are suggesting that the significantly higher than normal representation of Asian (including Indians) in HGC is because they are significantly smarter than average?
OK - I agree. And because these kids are significantly smarter it is not unreasonable to think that they need a more challenging curriculum and they are more focused in academics.
In fact here is something you should think about - many people feel that the Asian kids must be hating all the enrichment, Kumon, tutoring that they get, because their own average kids hate to study. Maybe - since the Asians are significantly smarter than average, they like the mental stimulation that academics offer. Wow! That is a radical concept! Who would think that there are kids who like to be "straight A" kids and like to study.
I will also agree that the education system in the US isn't as nearly as bad. It could be a lot worse. How much worse? Well - we have 2.0 now, and we will see the real impact in a few years. But if this world power wants to lag behind other countries in education there is nothing Asian-Americans can do, can we? The only thing we can do is work hard and try and be competitive by our own efforts. Someone has to work hard so that our great nation does not become a complete idiotocracy!
Partly, the other part is that their parents have drilled/trained/pushed them from a very young age. FWIW, I don't think that merely pushing kids ahead in a curriculum is necessarily the best way to get kids to learn a subject well. Do I think all Asian kids hate the extra enrichment? Don't know. I do know that one of my daughters' friends at the HGC (an Indian girl by the way) tells her all the time how much she hates math. She wouldn't dare tell her parents this. My daughter loves math. Guess who gets drilled in math all the time at home and in the summer? And yet they're in the same class and get very similar grades. Obviously one anecdote isn't data, but I think a lot of these kids being pushed along at a frantic pace early on aren't going to be any further along later in life and may very well be pushed into a field in which they're not happy.
I do agree with you on one of your points though; I support providing a more challenging curriculum for the children that are ready for it. All kids should should be challenged to the best of their abilities. I think the magnet and HGC programs should be expanded to make them more geographically accessible for a larger number of children. Keeping it at the 2-3% level leaves a lot of really bright kids at a level where they're not getting pushed enough. Conversely, I also think that the level of instruction at the top HS's in MoCo outside of the magnets is very good, and the kids coming out of them are IMO competitive with kids anywhere in the world. Perhaps I'm just being naive, but having worked with a lot of these kids through internships, I've been extremely impressed.
With respect to the US educational system not being competitive, as I pointed out before, when (very roughly) controlling for demographics the US isn't lagging behind other countries in education; similar groups in the US outperform the same groups in other countries. If you took South Korea or Japan and replaced 40% of the school age population with poor black and Hispanic kids I don't think there would be many articles extolling the brilliance of their educational systems.
Anonymous
05/18/2014 06:22
Subject: HGC demographics
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I was curious about this, so thanks for posting. I think AA and Latino are under-represented at our HGC and Asian/Indian are over-represented. I was surprised to find out that there was test prep going on to the tune of $600 or more, so this may be influencing the demographic.
No offense but this is why most people apply to HCG. To be with the smart kids. You look at the glance sheets and test scores by race and you will see why they are not represented.
African-American people and Latino people are not as smart as Asian people. Gotcha.
(HGC, by the way. Not HCG. Speaking of smart. Also, I truly, sincerely hope that if you have a child in an HGC, that child does not share your racist beliefs.)
Anonymous
05/18/2014 02:29
Subject: Re:HGC demographics
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
Specifically, India was 73rd out of 74 countries in the 2009 PISA. They did beat Kyrgyztan, so that's something I guess. Please tell us more about this wondrous educational system they have there where everybody works hard and achieves.
You may be right. Education is not accessible to many poor children in India, and many more children only get a rudimentary education that enables them to read and write. However, if you compare any child being educated in major metropolitan cities of India - the standard is extremely high.
But why talk about all the kids in India? Let's talk about the Indian kids who are here...they are doing exceedingly well. They come from intact families, their parents are successful and engaged with them, their college will be paid for (in most cases) and they will excel in school.
When given the same opportunities in MCPS that is available to all students in MoCo (including children of your race) - Indians (and Asians) are doing better.
Maybe it is their genes and superior brains because as you pointed out India is low down in PISA.
Asians in the US outscore Asians in every county in the world on international tests.
Whites in the US are very near the top when compared to white kids in europe/canada etc. on international tests.
Hispanics in the US outscore every majority Hispanic country in the world on international tests.
Clearly the educational system here sucks and is grossly inferior to the educational system in the rest of the world.
WRT the performance of Indians and Asians in MoCo (who I agree are doing very well), do you believe that they're a representative sampling of the countries they're from? We both know the answer to that. I work in IT, so I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the Asian and Indian kids in MoCo are significantly smarter than average; I know their parents are. But that wasn't really my point; my point is that the educational system in the US isn't nearly as bad as most people want to make it out to be.
So you are suggesting that the significantly higher than normal representation of Asian (including Indians) in HGC is because they are significantly smarter than average?
OK - I agree. And because these kids are significantly smarter it is not unreasonable to think that they need a more challenging curriculum and they are more focused in academics.
In fact here is something you should think about - many people feel that the Asian kids must be hating all the enrichment, Kumon, tutoring that they get, because their own average kids hate to study. Maybe - since the Asians are significantly smarter than average, they like the mental stimulation that academics offer. Wow! That is a radical concept! Who would think that there are kids who like to be "straight A" kids and like to study.
I will also agree that the education system in the US isn't as nearly as bad. It could be a lot worse. How much worse? Well - we have 2.0 now, and we will see the real impact in a few years. But if this world power wants to lag behind other countries in education there is nothing Asian-Americans can do, can we? The only thing we can do is work hard and try and be competitive by our own efforts. Someone has to work hard so that our great nation does not become a complete idiotocracy!
Anonymous
05/18/2014 00:16
Subject: Re:HGC demographics
If US education didn't suck we wouldn't be 31st in math. Slovakia beats us. Trust me the standard of living there is not high.
Anonymous
05/17/2014 23:00
Subject: Re:HGC demographics
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Actually, the American perspective is that talent and hard-work should be rewarded. That's why so many people from other countries come here.
Americans today don't follow this perspective. School is play time. College is drinking and frat time. People come here from other countries because there is less competition (Americans are uneducated), lower taxes, and less government intrusion/instability.
Asians and Indians educated in their home countries must work hard. The population and competition is much higher. There is a cultural expectation that children and young adults will work hard and achieve not find themselves while spending 7 years to get an english or education major while their parents support them.
Then why do Indians score so horribly on international educational assessment tests like the PISA?
Specifically, India was 73rd out of 74 countries in the 2009 PISA. They did beat Kyrgyztan, so that's something I guess. Please tell us more about this wondrous educational system they have there where everybody works hard and achieves.
You may be right. Education is not accessible to many poor children in India, and many more children only get a rudimentary education that enables them to read and write. However, if you compare any child being educated in major metropolitan cities of India - the standard is extremely high.
But why talk about all the kids in India? Let's talk about the Indian kids who are here...they are doing exceedingly well. They come from intact families, their parents are successful and engaged with them, their college will be paid for (in most cases) and they will excel in school.
When given the same opportunities in MCPS that is available to all students in MoCo (including children of your race) - Indians (and Asians) are doing better.
Maybe it is their genes and superior brains because as you pointed out India is low down in PISA.
Asians in the US outscore Asians in every county in the world on international tests.
Whites in the US are very near the top when compared to white kids in europe/canada etc. on international tests.
Hispanics in the US outscore every majority Hispanic country in the world on international tests.
Clearly the educational system here sucks and is grossly inferior to the educational system in the rest of the world.
WRT the performance of Indians and Asians in MoCo (who I agree are doing very well), do you believe that they're a representative sampling of the countries they're from? We both know the answer to that. I work in IT, so I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the Asian and Indian kids in MoCo are significantly smarter than average; I know their parents are. But that wasn't really my point; my point is that the educational system in the US isn't nearly as bad as most people want to make it out to be.
Anonymous
05/17/2014 22:27
Subject: Re:HGC demographics
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Actually, the American perspective is that talent and hard-work should be rewarded. That's why so many people from other countries come here.
Americans today don't follow this perspective. School is play time. College is drinking and frat time. People come here from other countries because there is less competition (Americans are uneducated), lower taxes, and less government intrusion/instability.
Asians and Indians educated in their home countries must work hard. The population and competition is much higher. There is a cultural expectation that children and young adults will work hard and achieve not find themselves while spending 7 years to get an english or education major while their parents support them.
Then why do Indians score so horribly on international educational assessment tests like the PISA?
Specifically, India was 73rd out of 74 countries in the 2009 PISA. They did beat Kyrgyztan, so that's something I guess. Please tell us more about this wondrous educational system they have there where everybody works hard and achieves.
You may be right. Education is not accessible to many poor children in India, and many more children only get a rudimentary education that enables them to read and write. However, if you compare any child being educated in major metropolitan cities of India - the standard is extremely high.
But why talk about all the kids in India? Let's talk about the Indian kids who are here...they are doing exceedingly well. They come from intact families, their parents are successful and engaged with them, their college will be paid for (in most cases) and they will excel in school.
When given the same opportunities in MCPS that is available to all students in MoCo (including children of your race) - Indians (and Asians) are doing better.
Maybe it is their genes and superior brains because as you pointed out India is low down in PISA.
Anonymous
05/17/2014 21:50
Subject: Re:HGC demographics
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Actually, the American perspective is that talent and hard-work should be rewarded. That's why so many people from other countries come here.
Americans today don't follow this perspective. School is play time. College is drinking and frat time. People come here from other countries because there is less competition (Americans are uneducated), lower taxes, and less government intrusion/instability.
Asians and Indians educated in their home countries must work hard. The population and competition is much higher. There is a cultural expectation that children and young adults will work hard and achieve not find themselves while spending 7 years to get an english or education major while their parents support them.
Then why do Indians score so horribly on international educational assessment tests like the PISA?
Specifically, India was 73rd out of 74 countries in the 2009 PISA. They did beat Kyrgyztan, so that's something I guess. Please tell us more about this wondrous educational system they have there where everybody works hard and achieves.
Anonymous
05/17/2014 21:25
Subject: Re:HGC demographics
Anonymous wrote:Actually, the American perspective is that talent and hard-work should be rewarded. That's why so many people from other countries come here.
Americans today don't follow this perspective. School is play time. College is drinking and frat time. People come here from other countries because there is less competition (Americans are uneducated), lower taxes, and less government intrusion/instability.
Asians and Indians educated in their home countries must work hard. The population and competition is much higher. There is a cultural expectation that children and young adults will work hard and achieve not find themselves while spending 7 years to get an english or education major while their parents support them.
India is in Asia.
(I learned that in school in the US.)
Anonymous
05/17/2014 21:23
Subject: Re:HGC demographics
Anonymous wrote:Actually, the American perspective is that talent and hard-work should be rewarded. That's why so many people from other countries come here.
Americans today don't follow this perspective. School is play time. College is drinking and frat time. People come here from other countries because there is less competition (Americans are uneducated), lower taxes, and less government intrusion/instability.
Asians and Indians educated in their home countries must work hard. The population and competition is much higher. There is a cultural expectation that children and young adults will work hard and achieve not find themselves while spending 7 years to get an english or education major while their parents support them.
Then why do Indians score so horribly on international educational assessment tests like the PISA?
Anonymous
05/17/2014 20:49
Subject: Re:HGC demographics
Anonymous wrote:Actually, the American perspective is that talent and hard-work should be rewarded. That's why so many people from other countries come here.
Americans today don't follow this perspective. School is play time. College is drinking and frat time. People come here from other countries because there is less competition (Americans are uneducated), lower taxes, and less government intrusion/instability.
Asians and Indians educated in their home countries must work hard. The population and competition is much higher. There is a cultural expectation that children and young adults will work hard and achieve not find themselves while spending 7 years to get an english or education major while their parents support them.
PP here, I was referring to the overall value of hardwork and talent, not just in education.
And yes, in the Asian countries, education is fiercely competitive. This is mostly because there is a limited number of "high" paying jobs and jobs that hold prestige, and most of those jobs almost all go to grads of the top one or two colleges in the country. This is not the case here. You can go to a no-name university and still land a job at a prestigious company and get paid a lot. It may take you longer than an Ivy Grad, but if one is hardworking/smart/talented, one can still achieve this type of success here. It's much harder to do this in a lot of Asian countries unless you graduate from these top univ. That's why it's so highly competitive...everyone wants to get into that one or two top colleges so they can be set for life. Again, it doesn't necessarily work that way here.
And to say Americans don't do well in college and ONLY party is not true. Yes, a lot do party, but many probably study hard, too. And yes, there are those parents that support their kids in college while the kid wastes the time and money while there. But *most* American parents don't do this because *most* American parents aren't wealthy enough to support them in college, let alone for 7 years. We live in a bubble here in this area. You are seeing extremes here. I'm not from this area. I never partied much in college. I worked my way through it and maintained decent grades.
Anonymous
05/17/2014 20:36
Subject: Re:HGC demographics
Actually, the American perspective is that talent and hard-work should be rewarded. That's why so many people from other countries come here.
Americans today don't follow this perspective. School is play time. College is drinking and frat time. People come here from other countries because there is less competition (Americans are uneducated), lower taxes, and less government intrusion/instability.
Asians and Indians educated in their home countries must work hard. The population and competition is much higher. There is a cultural expectation that children and young adults will work hard and achieve not find themselves while spending 7 years to get an english or education major while their parents support them.
Anonymous
05/17/2014 20:24
Subject: HGC demographics
Anonymous wrote:I was curious about this, so thanks for posting. I think AA and Latino are under-represented at our HGC and Asian/Indian are over-represented. I was surprised to find out that there was test prep going on to the tune of $600 or more, so this may be influencing the demographic.
No offense but this is why most people apply to HCG. To be with the smart kids. You look at the glance sheets and test scores by race and you will see why they are not represented.