Anonymous wrote:
Not manipulative. Inconvenient for the person who's taken everything they want out the relationship and now just wants to wash their hands of the person and be done with them. But not manipulative. Certainly not domestic violence.

The OP asked for advice but you seem to have hijacked this thread to deal with your own emotional trauma. Threatening suicide is not an appropriate means of asking for love and attention.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are disgusting. If you knew anything about what happens when a parent commits suicide, you would know that what is most damaging to the child is living without the parent, and knowing that the parent committed suicide. This increases the chances of the child committing suicide, as they feel as though their parent has sort of made it "acceptable". Yet, when you advocate that suicidal people who cry for help are making "threats" and are "selfish" and should be served with restraining orders, you take away the only thing left that can keep them alive, which is the support of others. They have exhausted every tool in their belt. And you want them to just suck it up. That is a recipe for suicide. Your ignorance, your callousness, your righteous judgment against people in unimaginable pain just contributes to more pain.

For whatever its worth, I actually agree with a fair amount of what you are saying (or trying to say), but your moral indignation, name calling, and poor word choice makes me extremely reluctant to wade in on your side of this.

Totally agree. If the above PP is the same ranting one from upthread, and the same person who calls a child encountering a dead parent "unfortunate," their credibility is shot.
You can call it whatever you want PP. A threat is just a threat - it's either followed through on or not. For those that follow up on their threats, that's unfortunate to use your own wording. For those that don't, that's abuse. The problem is that no one knows, do they? Not knowing what the outcome is doesn't make it NOT a threat. It's still a threat.
And yes, it's selfish to commit suicide. No one is advocating that suicidal people just suck it up. You're twisting words because you're so worked up. No one said, "I think it's best if they don't get help, that they wallow in their pain and just end it all." What some people have said is that it's really horribly traumatizing to find someone who has committed suicide or to be collateral damage in their pain. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

Since you seem to like to post articles, what about this one?
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2009-11-15/news/0911140551_1_suicide-water-fight-man

I take something very different from that article. I was touched by the couple the man assisted just before he killed himself, who questioned whether they should have talked to him instead of just thanking him. And the friend who wished he had been contacted.

Yes, watching someone fall to their death is unpleasant. Hating your life so much that you jump is much more so. This expectation that the suicidal should be very polite in cleaning up after themselves is astounding. There are only so many ways to do it. The "neatest" one would be pills, but it rarely works. I suppose the second "neatest" would be carbon monoxide poisoning. But the resentment people on this thread have voiced against those who leave a mess behind after killing themselves is just incredible.

How many people witnessed people from the World Trade Center jump to the deaths? Should they be angry that they had to see that? I'm sure it was traumatizing for them. Perhaps those in the World Trade Center should have forced themselves to withstand the unbearable heat in order to spare those below having to see them fall. View the trajectory.

a) red herring argument;
b) find a person who witnessed these people falling and ask them if it was "unpleasant."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are disgusting. If you knew anything about what happens when a parent commits suicide, you would know that what is most damaging to the child is living without the parent, and knowing that the parent committed suicide. This increases the chances of the child committing suicide, as they feel as though their parent has sort of made it "acceptable". Yet, when you advocate that suicidal people who cry for help are making "threats" and are "selfish" and should be served with restraining orders, you take away the only thing left that can keep them alive, which is the support of others. They have exhausted every tool in their belt. And you want them to just suck it up. That is a recipe for suicide. Your ignorance, your callousness, your righteous judgment against people in unimaginable pain just contributes to more pain.

For whatever its worth, I actually agree with a fair amount of what you are saying (or trying to say), but your moral indignation, name calling, and poor word choice makes me extremely reluctant to wade in on your side of this.

You are right. I should have waited until I felt less emotional about the subject. Point well taken. Keep in mind though that I was responding to the following statement (or something like it) "Those that commit suicide are horrible, selfish people with no love for anyone but themselves."

Only a very religious Christian with little education would say such a thing.

And I disagree that friends and loved ones are ill-equipped to deal with people that are in that very dark place. They know the person, they can connect with them. Understand them. Make them feel cared for. Most of the time, that's what the person needs the most. Professional help may also be necessary, but to walk away for a person experiencing acute suicidal ideation because you think you're being manipulated is the height of selfishness. What is manipulative about it? It's right there, out in the open. Is it attention-seeking? You bet. Someone is crying for attention.

You have no experience working with victims of domestic violence or perpetrators of domestic violence, do you? It shows.

The definition of manipulation is getting someone to do something without them knowing that you are employing strategies to get them to do it. There is nothing hidden in saying, "I feel like I want to die." It is right there, out in the open. The person is saying, "Please pay attention to me. I feel like I want to die."

Not manipulative. Inconvenient for the person who's taken everything they want out the relationship and now just wants to wash their hands of the person and be done with them. But not manipulative. Certainly not domestic violence.

See the post above as to why someone could actually say "I want to die," AND NOT MEAN IT. That's manipulative and very likely one of many tools of coercion and control used against another person.

Anonymous wrote:Tell him next time he threatens suicide, she should call 911. I know it varies state by state, but in some states, simply threatening suicide can get the person involuntarily committed for at least 24 hrs. Usually more.

My friend recently lost her husband to suicide (she discovered him in their house) and he hid his intentions. I agree that often times the cry of suicide is a cry for help. HOWEVER, when I was younger I was in an emotionally abusive relationship and when I would try to get out, my boyfriend would threaten to kill himself. I told someone who got him help and from what I hear now, his life has done a 180.

I agree. Call 911, and at the very least she'll have a record that he is mentally unstable, and she'll probably get him involuntarily committed briefly for treatment. She should save any crazy texts and emails from him in preparation for legal battles.

Incidentally, my brother was in a bad relationship with a girl who threatened to kill herself everytime he tried to break up with her. When they finally did break up, she made threats against him, and he had to get a restraining order against her. He's fine, and she hasn't killed herself, but you need to be prepared to protect yourself and your kids when you're dealing with someone who's mentally ill and manipulative. Threatening to kill yourself to get out of being "forced" to go to couples counseling is seriously manipulative.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are you actually saying that someone who contemplates suicide and reaches out for help, but then changes his or her mind and does not do it is "abusive"?

That is a remarkable proposition.

No, but I'm not surprised you would take it that way, given your other comments.

Here is what was stated: For those that follow up on their threats, that's unfortunate to use your own wording. For those that don't, that's abuse

How should I interpret that? For those that kill themselves: Unfortunate
For those that don't: That's abuse.

Apparently I cannot read. Help me.

I mistyped. Where you and I aren't connecting is that you assume every threat, every word about suicide coming from someone's mouth is from a true sense of pain. When that's the case, I think everyone agrees with you that it's awful. But that's not the case, and you're naive if you think every time someone threatens suicide it's an honest threat. There are many times that it's used as a tool to manipulate, and that's what people are saying. For many people, they are left wondering if it's a credible threat or not, and they are manipulated into changing their behavior or staying with someone out of fear, when in reality that person was never going to commit suicide, they just knew the threat would be enough to get what they want.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are disgusting. If you knew anything about what happens when a parent commits suicide, you would know that what is most damaging to the child is living without the parent, and knowing that the parent committed suicide. This increases the chances of the child committing suicide, as they feel as though their parent has sort of made it "acceptable". Yet, when you advocate that suicidal people who cry for help are making "threats" and are "selfish" and should be served with restraining orders, you take away the only thing left that can keep them alive, which is the support of others. They have exhausted every tool in their belt. And you want them to just suck it up. That is a recipe for suicide. Your ignorance, your callousness, your righteous judgment against people in unimaginable pain just contributes to more pain.

For whatever its worth, I actually agree with a fair amount of what you are saying (or trying to say), but your moral indignation, name calling, and poor word choice makes me extremely reluctant to wade in on your side of this.

You are right. I should have waited until I felt less emotional about the subject. Point well taken. Keep in mind though that I was responding to the following statement (or something like it) "Those that commit suicide are horrible, selfish people with no love for anyone but themselves."

Only a very religious Christian with little education would say such a thing.

And I disagree that friends and loved ones are ill-equipped to deal with people that are in that very dark place. They know the person, they can connect with them. Understand them. Make them feel cared for. Most of the time, that's what the person needs the most. Professional help may also be necessary, but to walk away for a person experiencing acute suicidal ideation because you think you're being manipulated is the height of selfishness. What is manipulative about it? It's right there, out in the open. Is it attention-seeking? You bet. Someone is crying for attention.

You have no experience working with victims of domestic violence or perpetrators of domestic violence, do you? It shows.

The definition of manipulation is getting someone to do something without them knowing that you are employing strategies to get them to do it. There is nothing hidden in saying, "I feel like I want to die." It is right there, out in the open. The person is saying, "Please pay attention to me. I feel like I want to die."

Not manipulative. Inconvenient for the person who's taken everything they want out the relationship and now just wants to wash their hands of the person and be done with them. But not manipulative. Certainly not domestic violence.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are you actually saying that someone who contemplates suicide and reaches out for help, but then changes his or her mind and does not do it is "abusive"?

That is a remarkable proposition.

No, but I'm not surprised you would take it that way, given your other comments.

Here is what was stated: For those that follow up on their threats, that's unfortunate to use your own wording. For those that don't, that's abuse

How should I interpret that? For those that kill themselves: Unfortunate
For those that don't: That's abuse.

Apparently I cannot read. Help me.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are disgusting. If you knew anything about what happens when a parent commits suicide, you would know that what is most damaging to the child is living without the parent, and knowing that the parent committed suicide. This increases the chances of the child committing suicide, as they feel as though their parent has sort of made it "acceptable". Yet, when you advocate that suicidal people who cry for help are making "threats" and are "selfish" and should be served with restraining orders, you take away the only thing left that can keep them alive, which is the support of others. They have exhausted every tool in their belt. And you want them to just suck it up. That is a recipe for suicide. Your ignorance, your callousness, your righteous judgment against people in unimaginable pain just contributes to more pain.

For whatever its worth, I actually agree with a fair amount of what you are saying (or trying to say), but your moral indignation, name calling, and poor word choice makes me extremely reluctant to wade in on your side of this.

Totally agree. If the above PP is the same ranting one from upthread, and the same person who calls a child encountering a dead parent "unfortunate," their credibility is shot.
You can call it whatever you want PP. A threat is just a threat - it's either followed through on or not. For those that follow up on their threats, that's unfortunate to use your own wording. For those that don't, that's abuse. The problem is that no one knows, do they? Not knowing what the outcome is doesn't make it NOT a threat. It's still a threat.
And yes, it's selfish to commit suicide. No one is advocating that suicidal people just suck it up. You're twisting words because you're so worked up. No one said, "I think it's best if they don't get help, that they wallow in their pain and just end it all." What some people have said is that it's really horribly traumatizing to find someone who has committed suicide or to be collateral damage in their pain. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

Since you seem to like to post articles, what about this one?
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2009-11-15/news/0911140551_1_suicide-water-fight-man

I take something very different from that article. I was touched by the couple the man assisted just before he killed himself, who questioned whether they should have talked to him instead of just thanking him. And the friend who wished he had been contacted.

Yes, watching someone fall to their death is unpleasant. Hating your life so much that you jump is much more so. This expectation that the suicidal should be very polite in cleaning up after themselves is astounding. There are only so many ways to do it. The "neatest" one would be pills, but it rarely works. I suppose the second "neatest" would be carbon monoxide poisoning. But the resentment people on this thread have voiced against those who leave a mess behind after killing themselves is just incredible.

How many people witnessed people from the World Trade Center jump to the deaths? Should they be angry that they had to see that? I'm sure it was traumatizing for them. Perhaps those in the World Trade Center should have forced themselves to withstand the unbearable heat in order to spare those below having to see them fall. View the trajectory.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are disgusting. If you knew anything about what happens when a parent commits suicide, you would know that what is most damaging to the child is living without the parent, and knowing that the parent committed suicide. This increases the chances of the child committing suicide, as they feel as though their parent has sort of made it "acceptable". Yet, when you advocate that suicidal people who cry for help are making "threats" and are "selfish" and should be served with restraining orders, you take away the only thing left that can keep them alive, which is the support of others. They have exhausted every tool in their belt. And you want them to just suck it up. That is a recipe for suicide. Your ignorance, your callousness, your righteous judgment against people in unimaginable pain just contributes to more pain.

For whatever its worth, I actually agree with a fair amount of what you are saying (or trying to say), but your moral indignation, name calling, and poor word choice makes me extremely reluctant to wade in on your side of this.

You are right. I should have waited until I felt less emotional about the subject. Point well taken. Keep in mind though that I was responding to the following statement (or something like it) "Those that commit suicide are horrible, selfish people with no love for anyone but themselves."

Only a very religious Christian with little education would say such a thing.

And I disagree that friends and loved ones are ill-equipped to deal with people that are in that very dark place. They know the person, they can connect with them. Understand them. Make them feel cared for. Most of the time, that's what the person needs the most. Professional help may also be necessary, but to walk away for a person experiencing acute suicidal ideation because you think you're being manipulated is the height of selfishness. What is manipulative about it? It's right there, out in the open. Is it attention-seeking? You bet. Someone is crying for attention.

You have no experience working with victims of domestic violence or perpetrators of domestic violence, do you? It shows.

Anonymous wrote:Are you actually saying that someone who contemplates suicide and reaches out for help, but then changes his or her mind and does not do it is "abusive"?

That is a remarkable proposition.

No, but I'm not surprised you would take it that way, given your other comments.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are disgusting. If you knew anything about what happens when a parent commits suicide, you would know that what is most damaging to the child is living without the parent, and knowing that the parent committed suicide. This increases the chances of the child committing suicide, as they feel as though their parent has sort of made it "acceptable". Yet, when you advocate that suicidal people who cry for help are making "threats" and are "selfish" and should be served with restraining orders, you take away the only thing left that can keep them alive, which is the support of others. They have exhausted every tool in their belt. And you want them to just suck it up. That is a recipe for suicide. Your ignorance, your callousness, your righteous judgment against people in unimaginable pain just contributes to more pain.

For whatever its worth, I actually agree with a fair amount of what you are saying (or trying to say), but your moral indignation, name calling, and poor word choice makes me extremely reluctant to wade in on your side of this.

You are right. I should have waited until I felt less emotional about the subject. Point well taken. Keep in mind though that I was responding to the following statement (or something like it) "Those that commit suicide are horrible, selfish people with no love for anyone but themselves."

Only a very religious Christian with little education would say such a thing.

And I disagree that friends and loved ones are ill-equipped to deal with people that are in that very dark place. They know the person, they can connect with them. Understand them. Make them feel cared for. Most of the time, that's what the person needs the most. Professional help may also be necessary, but to walk away for a person experiencing acute suicidal ideation because you think you're being manipulated is the height of selfishness. What is manipulative about it? It's right there, out in the open. Is it attention-seeking? You bet. Someone is crying for attention.

Are you actually saying that someone who contemplates suicide and reaches out for help, but then changes his or her mind and does not do it is "abusive"?

That is a remarkable proposition.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are disgusting. If you knew anything about what happens when a parent commits suicide, you would know that what is most damaging to the child is living without the parent, and knowing that the parent committed suicide. This increases the chances of the child committing suicide, as they feel as though their parent has sort of made it "acceptable". Yet, when you advocate that suicidal people who cry for help are making "threats" and are "selfish" and should be served with restraining orders, you take away the only thing left that can keep them alive, which is the support of others. They have exhausted every tool in their belt. And you want them to just suck it up. That is a recipe for suicide. Your ignorance, your callousness, your righteous judgment against people in unimaginable pain just contributes to more pain.

For whatever its worth, I actually agree with a fair amount of what you are saying (or trying to say), but your moral indignation, name calling, and poor word choice makes me extremely reluctant to wade in on your side of this.

Totally agree. If the above PP is the same ranting one from upthread, and the same person who calls a child encountering a dead parent "unfortunate," their credibility is shot.
You can call it whatever you want PP. A threat is just a threat - it's either followed through on or not. For those that follow up on their threats, that's unfortunate to use your own wording. For those that don't, that's abuse. The problem is that no one knows, do they? Not knowing what the outcome is doesn't make it NOT a threat. It's still a threat.
And yes, it's selfish to commit suicide. No one is advocating that suicidal people just suck it up. You're twisting words because you're so worked up. No one said, "I think it's best if they don't get help, that they wallow in their pain and just end it all." What some people have said is that it's really horribly traumatizing to find someone who has committed suicide or to be collateral damage in their pain. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

Since you seem to like to post articles, what about this one?
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2009-11-15/news/0911140551_1_suicide-water-fight-man

Anonymous wrote: People who "threaten" suicide are asking for help. Calling 911, tape recording them, asking for restraining orders is not particularly helpful.

You are right about one thing -- people who are threatening suicide ARE asking for help. But, at the same time they are often refusing to get help in the traditional ways offered -- going to see a psychiatrist, taking anti-depressants and following thru on regular long-term psychotherapy or voluntarily admitting themselves to a psychiatric unit. When a family member is making suicide threats and is refusing to get help in the traditional ways, calling 911, or tape recording them making the suicide "gesture" or "threat" are ways of getting them that help. A family member is not qualified to deal with a suicide gesture; they have no professional expertise in evaluating how serious the threat is, how and why it was made, what kind of diagnoses could be driving the suicidal gestures nor what treatment is available. IMO, the WORST thing a family member can do is NOT report a suicidal gesture. The think that keeps a suicidal person alive over the long term is not merely the "support of others", it is treatment by professionals.

OP is in a difficult spot if the threats are "implicit", i.e. "I don't know what I'll do." The mom might talk to a suicide counseling line to get the best advice on how to respond to implicit threats.

What state is the depressed person living in? There are forced outpatient treatment laws in some states, but the availability is very dependent on the specific facts of the situation. Look at the Treatment Advocacy Center's website http://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/legal-resources/state-standards for information about civil commitment standards and assisted outpatient treatment laws. If the mother wants to try for this, it's imperative to talk to an experienced attorney.

Anonymous wrote:You are disgusting. If you knew anything about what happens when a parent commits suicide, you would know that what is most damaging to the child is living without the parent, and knowing that the parent committed suicide. This increases the chances of the child committing suicide, as they feel as though their parent has sort of made it "acceptable". Yet, when you advocate that suicidal people who cry for help are making "threats" and are "selfish" and should be served with restraining orders, you take away the only thing left that can keep them alive, which is the support of others. They have exhausted every tool in their belt. And you want them to just suck it up. That is a recipe for suicide. Your ignorance, your callousness, your righteous judgment against people in unimaginable pain just contributes to more pain.

For whatever its worth, I actually agree with a fair amount of what you are saying (or trying to say), but your moral indignation, name calling, and poor word choice makes me extremely reluctant to wade in on your side of this.