Anonymous wrote:To 22:26 - had you miscarried or had a child with a disability or delay, would you have second guessed some of your choices? Just curious since I think most of us err on the side of caution to avoid feeling any guilt should something have gone wrong.

I am 22:26 and I did allow myself to be convinced (or browbeaten) to give up horseback riding. It is not something I have to do, and entails potentially serious risk for absolutely no objective benefit, unlike riding in a car, for example. My pleasure in physical exercise, communing with a beautiful animal, breathing fresh air, etc., was far outweighed by the remote possibility of injury.

Since I do not believe that an occasional glass of beer or wine is bad for mom or baby, I didn't worry much about that while pregnant. I had enough complications and legitimate things to worry about.

Anonymous wrote:Precisely, PP....you can't do anything about the chemicals surrounding us, but you CAN control what you imbibe....and that's what's so puzzling to some of us.

What's so puzzling is that you cannot understand the concept of relative risks and heuristic bias. Just because you can control whether or not you drink does not make the harm caused by drinking any more or any less. It just makes the harm more salient to you. You have to look at the actual evidence, not be distracted by other factors.

Anonymous wrote:To 22:26 - had you miscarried or had a child with a disability or delay, would you have second guessed some of your choices? Just curious since I think most of us err on the side of caution to avoid feeling any guilt should something have gone wrong.

I am not that PP but your question gets to the heart of the matter: no, I didn't avoid alcohol as some kind of talisman to ward off guilt for something that may happen in the future. That is totally irrational. Miscarriages aren't caused by alcohol anyway.

I just wonder if the moms who drink during pregnancies also have birth plans, agonize over what they eat, and will go overboard organic and healthy for their kids.

Anonymous wrote:Kids with FAS can display learning disabilities and delays and behavioral issues etc when they hit elementary school. They typically demonstrate some delays earlier, but even kids who simply hit their toddler milestones a little late can be diagnosed with delays much later on (elementary school). Obviously we don't think women who have a few drinks here and there will have kids with FAS. But they might have issues, and who knows if they could have been avoided. Why risk it? I could eat fried junk and crap and still have a "healthy" baby....does that make it right? I could have one cigarette and still have a healthy baby...is that cool? We simply don't understand why a woman simply doesn't skip drinking. And the answers seem to be "because we like the ritual" or taste, or need to relax. Seems odd.

Maybe because people are different and some are willing to accept a different level of risk than you are? Maybe because some people base their behavior on actual realities rather than based on what some people have deemed "right" or "cool" based on no real evidence? Maybe because women are capable of making their own choices for their own bodies and their own children without other women clucking at them for being selfish? Is it REALLY that hard to understand? Or do you actually understand perfectly, but you'd rather feel like a superior parent?

To 22:26 - had you miscarried or had a child with a disability or delay, would you have second guessed some of your choices? Just curious since I think most of us err on the side of caution to avoid feeling any guilt should something have gone wrong.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The big epidemiological studies out of Britain and Australia have shown no harmful effects for moderate drinking (2 or less drinks). I don't have a citation but it should be easy to google. The British study was on nurses' health and had over a thousand participants. It is less than 4 yrs old and would not have been available when the previous posters searched. There is so much stigma in the US not much research is available here on moderate drinking. FWIW I lost a pregnancy at 21 wks despite following all the rules and not drinking a drop. My second pregnancy I had a little wine and now a healthy 2 yr old.

With all due respect, often signs of fetal alcohol don't become manifest until the child is much older than two.

With all due respect I wish you a painful pregnancy full of complications and tragedy too.

NP here. Was that really necessary?

Anonymous wrote:Kids with FAS can display learning disabilities and delays and behavioral issues etc when they hit elementary school. They typically demonstrate some delays earlier, but even kids who simply hit their toddler milestones a little late can be diagnosed with delays much later on (elementary school). Obviously we don't think women who have a few drinks here and there will have kids with FAS. But they might have issues, and who knows if they could have been avoided. Why risk it? I could eat fried junk and crap and still have a "healthy" baby....does that make it right? I could have one cigarette and still have a healthy baby...is that cool? We simply don't understand why a woman simply doesn't skip drinking. And the answers seem to be "because we like the ritual" or taste, or need to relax. Seems odd.

No. The whole point of this discussion is how to rationally measure risks and take moralizing out of it. Trying to eliminate every single risk is impossible and detrimental in the long run. Driving a car or being married to a man (domestic violence) are actually more dangerous to a pregnant woman than anything else. And yet nobody is on this website screaming about how guilty they felt for taking a taxi instead of the bus. Why is that ... ?

I don't understand any of this. Obviously some alcohol is not bad for a pregnant woman. Historically, in Europe, everyone drank beer because it was cleaner than water. Now, in Europe, pregnant women drink beer and wine. In this country, midwives recommend wine to their patients. There is no epidemic of FAS and FASD in this country, in Europe, now or in the past.

When you're having more than 5 drinks in a day, for many days of you're pregnancy, that's very bad. Having a glass of wine here and there, that's not bad.

Some pps seem to already know this, and others will never acknowledge this. (Yes, I had a few half-beers during my pregnancy. I also drank coffee and went horseback riding.)

Precisely, PP....you can't do anything about the chemicals surrounding us, but you CAN control what you imbibe....and that's what's so puzzling to some of us.

Anonymous wrote:Um, yeah I guess it's fear driven. We all know that alcohol kills brain cells, right? Common knowledge. So drinking alcohol while your baby's brain is developing isn't somewhat risky? Wonder how many ivy leaguers had moms who drank a few drinks each week while pregnant.

I don't know about several drinks per week, but I know my mom certainly drank somewhat when she was pregnant with me. She didn't even know she was pregnant until she was about 4 months along -- she had thought she was infertile -- and she was living in Europe in the late 70s where people drank casually, and she did as well. I went to an Ivy League undergrad and law school and did just fine. My sister did as well. So any drinking during pregnancy clearly didn't hurt us any!

To me, light drinking is say one glass of wine or a beer per month, maybe at most twice in a month. I have a hard time believing that amount is truly dangerous given that women drank that more than that for decades and most kids turned out fine. I haven't drunk that much personally, but I wouldn't judge someone who did. I am more worried about the chemicals we are all saturated in on a daily basis. Of course, there is nothing I can do about that.

Anonymous wrote:Ingesting something is riskier than leaving your house, PP. But keep on trying to justify it.

You are so ignorant. The risk of getting in a car accident and killing your fetus is MUCH higher than the risk of one drink a week.

Kids with FAS can display learning disabilities and delays and behavioral issues etc when they hit elementary school. They typically demonstrate some delays earlier, but even kids who simply hit their toddler milestones a little late can be diagnosed with delays much later on (elementary school). Obviously we don't think women who have a few drinks here and there will have kids with FAS. But they might have issues, and who knows if they could have been avoided. Why risk it? I could eat fried junk and crap and still have a "healthy" baby....does that make it right? I could have one cigarette and still have a healthy baby...is that cool? We simply don't understand why a woman simply doesn't skip drinking. And the answers seem to be "because we like the ritual" or taste, or need to relax. Seems odd.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The big epidemiological studies out of Britain and Australia have shown no harmful effects for moderate drinking (2 or less drinks). I don't have a citation but it should be easy to google. The British study was on nurses' health and had over a thousand participants. It is less than 4 yrs old and would not have been available when the previous posters searched. There is so much stigma in the US not much research is available here on moderate drinking. FWIW I lost a pregnancy at 21 wks despite following all the rules and not drinking a drop. My second pregnancy I had a little wine and now a healthy 2 yr old.

With all due respect, often signs of fetal alcohol don't become manifest until the child is much older than two.

With all due respect I wish you a painful pregnancy full of complications and tragedy too.

Anonymous wrote:Not true, defensive PP. A sip here or there isnt a big deal....it's not necessary or healthy for the baby, but the PPs aren't ready to slam you for a sip or two. It's the folks who are busily trying to find research to justify regular drinking (ie: multiple drinks a week) who are raising eyebrows. It's just soooo not necessary. And for the PP to say I don't even like the taste of alcohol but drank half of my moms cocktail: Seriously? You couldn't exercise some self control?

Sure I could. As I said, I don't like most alcohols; I do like that one, and it was a special occasion. I could've chosen not to drink it, of course. I just didn't think it was that big a deal, considering how many women drink in early pregnancy without knowing they are pregnant (which I did not do, at all), and have healthy babies. If I saw research that said any drop of alcohol was dangerous, of course I would not have done it. The problem is the lack of knowledge. That is why people are seeking studies. And your own response proves my point -- you say you are not looking to "slam" people who have a sip or two, yet that is exactly what you have just done in my case. Half the drink was 4 small sips. Does that count as a sip or two given that I imbibed no alcohol at all for at least a month prior? I would think so, but clearly you subscribe to the all or nothing school -- which is fine, but is contrary to what you are saying.