Anonymous
07/13/2013 19:45
Subject: Re:Unschooling demystified
Anonymous wrote:NP here. I don't know that I'm a fan, but from folks I know who do unschool their kids it takes both very motivated parents and very motivated kids to end up with educated teens/adults.
An example: A kid is interested in nature, maybe asks why leaves are green. From there, they might explore online, via books, or science experiments and learn about chlorophyl, the bloom cycle of trees and so forth. That might lead the child to wonder "well, if leaves are green, why is the sky blue" and they're off and running to all sorts of other exploration, visting a planetarium and on and on.
We have friends who unschool. Their children's interest in legos led eventually to a lego robotic tournament and their team of home and unschooled kids came in second in the state. The robotics portion led their son to an interest in computers and programming. He's 16 and has now voluntarily taken a class or two at the local community college in computer programming and has written code for some basic video games.
A family cycling trip to Italy was prefaced by studying maps and planning the trip. The vacation was filled with history and art and culture hands-on rather than reading a book and writing a report.
It's organically growth in learning. Their daughter expressed interest in theater and dance from a young age. They watched lots of Shakespeare and other theater, enrolled her in dance classes, explored the history of jazz, and a host of other things.
Based on their experience their kids actually spent lots more of their days reading for enjoyment or being active physically than your average child simply because they had the freedom to do so.
As a parent, I don't think it's a route I would take, but it's fascinating nonetheless.
The question for those of you who say you wouldn't go to an unschooled surgeon or CPA, the question really is how do you know? They have a college and medical degree on the wall. Do you often question your physicians or accountants or plumbers about where they went to high school?
Most of us do that stuff (studying maps, pursuing things our kids are interest in, etc.) in addition to schooling. It's called being a parent. That's why it's mind boggling people considered it their kids' sole form of schooling.
Anonymous
07/13/2013 19:41
Subject: Re:Unschooling demystified
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
The question for those of you who say you wouldn't go to an unschooled surgeon or CPA, the question really is how do you know? They have a college and medical degree on the wall. Do you often question your physicians or accountants or plumbers about where they went to high school?
If they have a college diploma and a medical school diploma on the wall, they weren't unschooled.
Why? It appears that you're saying by default kids won't get into or succeed at college or beyond. Being homeschooled or unschooled as a child doesn't translate into a young adult not wanting to go to college necessarily.
Again, how would you know?
Anonymous
07/13/2013 19:32
Subject: Re:Unschooling demystified
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
The question for those of you who say you wouldn't go to an unschooled surgeon or CPA, the question really is how do you know? They have a college and medical degree on the wall. Do you often question your physicians or accountants or plumbers about where they went to high school?
If they have a college diploma and a medical school diploma on the wall, they weren't unschooled.
I think that some people define an unschooled person as someone who only studied what they chose to study. One unschooled family I know has a child who studied dance at a very intensive level for many years with classes, and teachers, and eventually dance boarding school. Another unschooled family I read about had a child who would choose a subject and devour it for months at a time, including reading everything they could get their hands on, taking online courses, making arrangements to be tutored by adults in the field.
By that definition, if someone chose to study science on their own, and then at college and then at medical school they'd still be "unschooled" in the sense that they were in the driver's seat.
To me, I can imagine unschooling working for certain families and certain kids. I think that if there are adults present who are passionate about learning, and model how to seek it out, and act as references, that many kids will pick up on that, and explore and learn on their own, and that eventually in the course of that exploration they'll need to learn to read and write and do a fair amount of math which will motivate them to learn.
I also think there are "unschooling" parents who basically neglect their kids, or who come from an antiintellectual place, and that it can be a very harmful way to raise the child. I think that, in order to unschool a child properly and adult needs to be monitoring . . . is my kid happy? is he/she curious? is he spending time doing things that are intellectually engaging and where he's learning (note: I don't care if the learning comes in the same sequence or at the same pace as schooled kids, if you want to read voraciously at 8 and not start thiniking about math until you're 10, I'm OK with that), do they have access to the resources they need such as intelligent adult experts, and a good library, etc . . .
Anonymous
07/13/2013 19:06
Subject: Unschooling demystified
Anonymous wrote:OP here. Name-calling ("idiot", really?) from someone who's an educator, just because we disagree? Wow.
A few observations about the latest posts:
I don't make my decisions based primarily on what the "norm" is; I make them based on what is best for myself and/or my family. Besides, norms change. I'm glad we don't dress the way women dressed a century ago, for example.
Yes, I have heard of Noam Chomsky, but I'm not familiar with his writing about language acquisition. Either way, just sub in one of the countless other skills that the pre-5 set acquires without going to classes.
I guess college professors aren't teachers by the PP's definition (they don't have education degrees or certificates and are not "taught to teach"). Yet I'm guessing PP would agree that many of them are brilliant at teaching. The idea that only people with teaching degrees are qualified to teach is just a fallacy.
Unschooling, as I mentioned before and as is discussed in the URL, is an unfortunate misnomer. It doesn't mean avoiding all classes. It just means taking them as needed, without them being compulsory.
Most (but not all) "progressive" schools are still top-down teaching with set curricula, which is the antithesis of the philosophy that leads people to "unschool."
OP are you going to unschool?
Anonymous
07/13/2013 19:04
Subject: Re:Unschooling demystified
Anonymous wrote:
The question for those of you who say you wouldn't go to an unschooled surgeon or CPA, the question really is how do you know? They have a college and medical degree on the wall. Do you often question your physicians or accountants or plumbers about where they went to high school?
If they have a college diploma and a medical school diploma on the wall, they weren't unschooled.
Anonymous
07/13/2013 14:03
Subject: Re:Unschooling demystified
NP here. I don't know that I'm a fan, but from folks I know who do unschool their kids it takes both very motivated parents and very motivated kids to end up with educated teens/adults.
An example: A kid is interested in nature, maybe asks why leaves are green. From there, they might explore online, via books, or science experiments and learn about chlorophyl, the bloom cycle of trees and so forth. That might lead the child to wonder "well, if leaves are green, why is the sky blue" and they're off and running to all sorts of other exploration, visting a planetarium and on and on.
We have friends who unschool. Their children's interest in legos led eventually to a lego robotic tournament and their team of home and unschooled kids came in second in the state. The robotics portion led their son to an interest in computers and programming. He's 16 and has now voluntarily taken a class or two at the local community college in computer programming and has written code for some basic video games.
A family cycling trip to Italy was prefaced by studying maps and planning the trip. The vacation was filled with history and art and culture hands-on rather than reading a book and writing a report.
It's organically growth in learning. Their daughter expressed interest in theater and dance from a young age. They watched lots of Shakespeare and other theater, enrolled her in dance classes, explored the history of jazz, and a host of other things.
Based on their experience their kids actually spent lots more of their days reading for enjoyment or being active physically than your average child simply because they had the freedom to do so.
As a parent, I don't think it's a route I would take, but it's fascinating nonetheless.
The question for those of you who say you wouldn't go to an unschooled surgeon or CPA, the question really is how do you know? They have a college and medical degree on the wall. Do you often question your physicians or accountants or plumbers about where they went to high school?
An example: A kid is interested in nature, maybe asks why leaves are green. From there, they might explore online, via books, or science experiments and learn about chlorophyl, the bloom cycle of trees and so forth. That might lead the child to wonder "well, if leaves are green, why is the sky blue" and they're off and running to all sorts of other exploration, visting a planetarium and on and on.
We have friends who unschool. Their children's interest in legos led eventually to a lego robotic tournament and their team of home and unschooled kids came in second in the state. The robotics portion led their son to an interest in computers and programming. He's 16 and has now voluntarily taken a class or two at the local community college in computer programming and has written code for some basic video games.
A family cycling trip to Italy was prefaced by studying maps and planning the trip. The vacation was filled with history and art and culture hands-on rather than reading a book and writing a report.
It's organically growth in learning. Their daughter expressed interest in theater and dance from a young age. They watched lots of Shakespeare and other theater, enrolled her in dance classes, explored the history of jazz, and a host of other things.
Based on their experience their kids actually spent lots more of their days reading for enjoyment or being active physically than your average child simply because they had the freedom to do so.
As a parent, I don't think it's a route I would take, but it's fascinating nonetheless.
The question for those of you who say you wouldn't go to an unschooled surgeon or CPA, the question really is how do you know? They have a college and medical degree on the wall. Do you often question your physicians or accountants or plumbers about where they went to high school?
Anonymous
07/13/2013 13:44
Subject: Unschooling demystified
OP here. Name-calling ("idiot", really?) from someone who's an educator, just because we disagree? Wow.
A few observations about the latest posts:
I don't make my decisions based primarily on what the "norm" is; I make them based on what is best for myself and/or my family. Besides, norms change. I'm glad we don't dress the way women dressed a century ago, for example.
Yes, I have heard of Noam Chomsky, but I'm not familiar with his writing about language acquisition. Either way, just sub in one of the countless other skills that the pre-5 set acquires without going to classes.
I guess college professors aren't teachers by the PP's definition (they don't have education degrees or certificates and are not "taught to teach"). Yet I'm guessing PP would agree that many of them are brilliant at teaching. The idea that only people with teaching degrees are qualified to teach is just a fallacy.
Unschooling, as I mentioned before and as is discussed in the URL, is an unfortunate misnomer. It doesn't mean avoiding all classes. It just means taking them as needed, without them being compulsory.
Most (but not all) "progressive" schools are still top-down teaching with set curricula, which is the antithesis of the philosophy that leads people to "unschool."
A few observations about the latest posts:
I don't make my decisions based primarily on what the "norm" is; I make them based on what is best for myself and/or my family. Besides, norms change. I'm glad we don't dress the way women dressed a century ago, for example.
Yes, I have heard of Noam Chomsky, but I'm not familiar with his writing about language acquisition. Either way, just sub in one of the countless other skills that the pre-5 set acquires without going to classes.
I guess college professors aren't teachers by the PP's definition (they don't have education degrees or certificates and are not "taught to teach"). Yet I'm guessing PP would agree that many of them are brilliant at teaching. The idea that only people with teaching degrees are qualified to teach is just a fallacy.
Unschooling, as I mentioned before and as is discussed in the URL, is an unfortunate misnomer. It doesn't mean avoiding all classes. It just means taking them as needed, without them being compulsory.
Most (but not all) "progressive" schools are still top-down teaching with set curricula, which is the antithesis of the philosophy that leads people to "unschool."
Anonymous
07/12/2013 23:03
Subject: Re:Unschooling demystified
There are several posters 8:23 and 20:20 who are speaking of homeschooling which is really different than unschooling to me. Unschooling is getting everything from real world examples and having everything driven by the child. Khan academy is just an online course. Nothing different than a classroom. While I get why homschooling is popular especially among the rich who can travel, take off all this time to teach, hire teachers, and so forth, I don't understand why any parent would want their kid to take the lead all the time. Traditional schooling may be too teacher driven, but unschooling and complete child led learning takes it to the other extreme basically producing narcissistic people in the long run.
Anonymous
07/12/2013 22:20
Subject: Unschooling demystified
Sounds great on paper but in reality I'd wager that the vast majority of kids do not even remotely have the right environment and set of spontaneous circumstances needed for adequately robust learning.
Anonymous
07/12/2013 21:03
Subject: Re:Unschooling demystified
Title to the post is a misnomer.
Anonymous
07/12/2013 20:20
Subject: Unschooling demystified
I read it.
You do realize that interest-driven, child-led, and self-directed are also terms used in progressive education. There are progressive schools in our area.
And while it's fantastic that Joey Jughead has an interest in medicine, how will Joey approach those medical texts if Joey was never taught to read expository texts? never taught the basics of synthesizing chunks of information? never learned the difference btw. credible sources and junk?
You are living in a la la land, idiot.
And you're accusing me of being ignorant? LMFAO!
I am an educator. I've worked in different environments. So yes, I know about "unschooling," which translates into enabling.
much luck with your kids when they're teens! I'd love to be a fly on the wall when they hit that stage - if they're not there already. But something tells me your children are either very young or you're childless.
I feel ridiculous arguing with someone who hasn't read the page in question, but in a nutshell: unschooling doesn't mean not learning. It's a different approach to learning, ie. "interest driven, child-led, natural, organic, eclectic, or self-directed learning." So, to use your example, if a child has an interest in being a doctor, they would apply themselves to learning the things they need to reach their goal. But there's no reason that learning has to happen in a school environment, until that kid reaches the level of college and med school ... and then only because (I assume) attending those institutions is a requirement for getting a medical license.
There are so many resources nowadays; it's not all up to the parents to teach. There are all sorts of centers that offer a-la-carte classes, as well as books, the Khan Academy, and online K-12 classes offered by the likes of Stanford and GW (children can pick and choose those that are relevant to them). I've been reading many accounts of unschoolers going on to attend colleges with great success; in fact, many start taking college classes well before they reach 18. Heck, I noticed that Stanford even has a page devoted to homeschool college admissions now (http://admission.stanford.edu/basics/requirements/home_school.html).
You do realize that interest-driven, child-led, and self-directed are also terms used in progressive education. There are progressive schools in our area.
And while it's fantastic that Joey Jughead has an interest in medicine, how will Joey approach those medical texts if Joey was never taught to read expository texts? never taught the basics of synthesizing chunks of information? never learned the difference btw. credible sources and junk?
You are living in a la la land, idiot.
And you're accusing me of being ignorant? LMFAO!
I am an educator. I've worked in different environments. So yes, I know about "unschooling," which translates into enabling.
much luck with your kids when they're teens! I'd love to be a fly on the wall when they hit that stage - if they're not there already. But something tells me your children are either very young or you're childless.
Anonymous wrote:
I feel ridiculous arguing with someone who hasn't read the page in question, but in a nutshell: unschooling doesn't mean not learning. It's a different approach to learning, ie. "interest driven, child-led, natural, organic, eclectic, or self-directed learning." So, to use your example, if a child has an interest in being a doctor, they would apply themselves to learning the things they need to reach their goal. But there's no reason that learning has to happen in a school environment, until that kid reaches the level of college and med school ... and then only because (I assume) attending those institutions is a requirement for getting a medical license.
There are so many resources nowadays; it's not all up to the parents to teach. There are all sorts of centers that offer a-la-carte classes, as well as books, the Khan Academy, and online K-12 classes offered by the likes of Stanford and GW (children can pick and choose those that are relevant to them). I've been reading many accounts of unschoolers going on to attend colleges with great success; in fact, many start taking college classes well before they reach 18. Heck, I noticed that Stanford even has a page devoted to homeschool college admissions now (http://admission.stanford.edu/basics/requirements/home_school.html).
Anonymous
07/12/2013 20:14
Subject: Unschooling demystified
Your friend is lecturing.
Good teachers
1) lecture,
2) create environments rich in discussion,
3) teach to the different learners (glad you recognize that your sons are auditory learners . . . ),
4) integrate a myriad of methods into instruction, and
5) use print and non-print materials as reinforcement.
THAT'S teaching.
agree that there are learning opportunities all around us
sitting around at dinner with pals, talking about Egypt or Italy or Iran or Australia - all good, yes . . .
But to learn how the world works through practical application, cross-disciplinary approaches, and self-reflection is what allows a child to build upon a foundation.
again - surprised by the ignorance on these boards
Good teachers
1) lecture,
2) create environments rich in discussion,
3) teach to the different learners (glad you recognize that your sons are auditory learners . . . ),
4) integrate a myriad of methods into instruction, and
5) use print and non-print materials as reinforcement.
THAT'S teaching.
agree that there are learning opportunities all around us
sitting around at dinner with pals, talking about Egypt or Italy or Iran or Australia - all good, yes . . .
But to learn how the world works through practical application, cross-disciplinary approaches, and self-reflection is what allows a child to build upon a foundation.
again - surprised by the ignorance on these boards
Anonymous wrote:Since we agree that a person could become a doctor with our the history classes taught in school.
What would be more effective a teacher trying to teach a class what is going on in Egypt or having my friend who grew up in Egypt and who has family still there and who visites 5 times a year and still does business there explain the government to my teenager and why they are in the news. He even explained how it affects the soccer matches. After a 4 hour dinner and a gift card to a book store I think this form of teaching is much more effective than what my sons would have learned in school, any school.
I also had a lobbyist friend explain his view of our government and how it really works. Guess what - you don't have to pay a lobbyist anything - not even a book store gift certificate - to talk about themselves. I did get him a signed book from his favorite chef.
So that is how I think unschooling works.
Really sitting is a class for hours listening to a teacher lecture from a book and then reading the same content in a book and then memorizing a bunch of useless facts and being tested is not an effective form of teaching.
So they know Indians/Mayflower/Boston Tea Party, and all the major wars, Robert E. Lee and a bunch of names they may need to know so they appear in "society" to be educated, a day trip to Gettysburg and one to Williamsburg. That took me about 2 months to cover. It's actually pathetic how little anybody really learns about history and govt and politics in a traditional school.
Anonymous wrote:Could the child potentially pass the medical boards? I suppose. Should any functional adult, especially one who aspires to be a professional, "skip history classes" - or any class? Absolutely not.Anonymous wrote:Would you agree that a child could basically skip history classes and become a doctor.
Anonymous wrote:So tell me . . .
How does one go on to become a doctor or a veterinarian or a nurse w/o schooling?
After all, isn't college also a microcosm of society? the next step after elementary and secondary in "brainwashing the masses?"
Until society beaks down, my kids will attend school, and I will continue to brainwash the masses!
OP, if this impresses you, you're a fool.
Anonymous
07/12/2013 20:05
Subject: Unschooling demystified
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:This is OP. Sure, I'd let an unschooled professional do significant work for me. The professions you cited all require licenses, btw, so there's your independent authority checking that they quality, if that's something that you value (though somehow there are still a lot of awful doctors and such). Plenty of other professions don't require licenses, and I'd judge those people's abilities by looking at the quality of their previous work and their references.
Regarding teachers, I guess we will just have to disagree. Do parents have to hire professional teachers to teach their kids to talk? That's a very complicated skill, but somehow children learn it just fine on their own, in their own way and in their own time, by listening and practicing. Do parents learn how to be parents from professional teachers? Another complicated skill set that most people manage to acquire through reading and talking to people and observing. And so on and so forth.
If you think about it, everyone is unschooling until age five, and everyone is unschooling after age 18 (in college, you have freedom to choose your major and many of your classes, decide whether or not to attend lectures, and so on). People learn a great deal as little children and as adults, and it works. There's no reason that things HAVE to be done differently between ages 5 and 18.
Would you agree to be operated upon by an 'unschooled' surgeon?
I also call BS on the notion that 'everyone is unschooling after age 18". I don't know where and when you went to college, OP, but where I did, we had a significant number of required courses, and attendance was taken in a lot of classes.
I would go to a good surgeon of any background, and not only would I not mind if they had been unschooled, but I would probably consider it a plus. Remember it doesn't mean no training. All surgeons go to medical school and then do residencies. That is a completely separate thing from compulsory K-12 education.
And to your second point, regardless of what any college is like on a micro level, it is the student who chooses to go there and the student who chooses their major (unless they have really over-controlling parents, but that's a whole separate issue at that age). The element of student choice is the essence of unschooling. (There should be a better term than "unschooling" that more accurately captures how it differs from conventional, compulsory K-12 schooling.) And everyone is definitely "unschooling" in every sense of the term after college.
It is so far off from the nor, and wacky...I wouldn't go to a Starbucks which had an unschooled barista let alone a surgeon. You'd consider it a plus...? Whatever.
Anonymous
07/12/2013 18:29
Subject: Unschooling demystified
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:This is OP. Sure, I'd let an unschooled professional do significant work for me. The professions you cited all require licenses, btw, so there's your independent authority checking that they quality, if that's something that you value (though somehow there are still a lot of awful doctors and such). Plenty of other professions don't require licenses, and I'd judge those people's abilities by looking at the quality of their previous work and their references.
Regarding teachers, I guess we will just have to disagree. Do parents have to hire professional teachers to teach their kids to talk? That's a very complicated skill, but somehow children learn it just fine on their own, in their own way and in their own time, by listening and practicing. Do parents learn how to be parents from professional teachers? Another complicated skill set that most people manage to acquire through reading and talking to people and observing. And so on and so forth.
If you think about it, everyone is unschooling until age five, and everyone is unschooling after age 18 (in college, you have freedom to choose your major and many of your classes, decide whether or not to attend lectures, and so on). People learn a great deal as little children and as adults, and it works. There's no reason that things HAVE to be done differently between ages 5 and 18.
Would you agree to be operated upon by an 'unschooled' surgeon?
I also call BS on the notion that 'everyone is unschooling after age 18". I don't know where and when you went to college, OP, but where I did, we had a significant number of required courses, and attendance was taken in a lot of classes.
I would go to a good surgeon of any background, and not only would I not mind if they had been unschooled, but I would probably consider it a plus. Remember it doesn't mean no training. All surgeons go to medical school and then do residencies. That is a completely separate thing from compulsory K-12 education.
And to your second point, regardless of what any college is like on a micro level, it is the student who chooses to go there and the student who chooses their major (unless they have really over-controlling parents, but that's a whole separate issue at that age). The element of student choice is the essence of unschooling. (There should be a better term than "unschooling" that more accurately captures how it differs from conventional, compulsory K-12 schooling.) And everyone is definitely "unschooling" in every sense of the term after college.
Anonymous
07/12/2013 17:54
Subject: Unschooling demystified
Anonymous wrote:Do parents have to hire professional teachers to teach their kids to talk? That's a very complicated skill, but somehow children learn it just fine on their own, in their own way and in their own time, by listening and practicing.
Evidently you have not heard of Noam Chomsky. Because learning to talk, for human babies, is completely non-analogous to other (un)schooling things to learn. Please consider unschooling yourself about human language acquisition.