Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a writer and use algebra all the time. It's a life skill, basic math. Past that, no, I wouldn't say most people "need" statistics or calculus (though they can be handy), but algebra? Basic, basic stuff.

I agree that algebra is a life skill, but statistics is too, perhaps even more. Many of the stupid decisions people make are due precisely to a lack of understanding of basic stats and probability.

I think Algebra is necessary, but I agree with you that useful life math includes statistics. And, I also think that America could benefit by having a population that has some kind of financial math/economics literacy -- budgeting, compounding savings over time, interest rates, capital investments, some financial history.

Anonymous wrote:Petroleum engineering, engineering of any kind, robotics, computer science. Even the coding of computers requires advanced math skills

That's great. But what percentage of our workforce do these professions comprise?

Actually, if you look at the job growth (current and projected) those specific fields are where the jobs are. The problem is that no one tells the kids that chemistry is having 40-year high in unemployment or that the future national need for theoretical physicists is in the hundreds. So, students go into these fields thinking they are getting into high-demand areas and then end up unemployed. Beryl Lieff Benderley has been chronicling this effect in Science magazine for some time. (There's scholarly analysis to back this up too.) The problem is that we treat the S-T-E- and M as if it doesn't matter which of these fields you pursue, when it matters a whole lot.

Anonymous wrote:Petroleum engineering, engineering of any kind, robotics, computer science. Even the coding of computers requires advanced math skills

That's great. But what percentage of our workforce do these professions comprise?

Well, for starters, right here in the DMV area there are easily tens of thousands of people working in various areas of the IT field. Probably more people working in those jobs than there are kids flipping burgers at McDonalds.

Why are you so eager to dumb kids down? Why limit kids to the bottom and put a ceiling over their heads that makes it difficult if not impossible to ever pursue anything with their lives? Why insist on trapping them in an ever-repeating cycle of multigenerational poverty? It's far better for them to have doors open than doors being slammed in their faces.

Petroleum engineering, engineering of any kind, robotics, computer science. Even the coding of computers requires advanced math skills

That's great. But what percentage of our workforce do these professions comprise?

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]If you ever want to go to grad school for anything there will be algebra (and geometry, ugh) on the GRE, unless it has changed substantially. [/quote]

In my Antitrust course in law school, we used quadratic equations to measure marketshare of companies to prove or disprove the existence/size of monopolies, duopolies, oligopolies etc.[/quote]




It's true. OP is saying s/he may not use it in real life - which is probably true - but the fact is that in order to pass the SOLs, the ACTs, score well on PSAT/SAT, graduate HS, get into a college, graduate from college, get accepted into a masters or law or Ph.D. program, everyone is now looking for advanced math skills (and science as well).

The first question son was asked in college interviews was "how far have you gone in math?" "Calculus?". Nope, so now we are doing it as a summer course because the college wants calculus out of the way before he starts.

And for what it's worth, the most lucrative college majors now all require advanced STEM stills: Petroleum engineering, engineering of any kind, robotics, computer science. Even the coding of computers requires advanced math skills.[/quote]

Well, we've established that this is a requirement, the question is, is there any logic for these requirements?

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]If you ever want to go to grad school for anything there will be algebra (and geometry, ugh) on the GRE, unless it has changed substantially. [/quote]

In my Antitrust course in law school, we used quadratic equations to measure marketshare of companies to prove or disprove the existence/size of monopolies, duopolies, oligopolies etc.[/quote]




It's true. OP is saying s/he may not use it in real life - which is probably true - but the fact is that in order to pass the SOLs, the ACTs, score well on PSAT/SAT, graduate HS, get into a college, graduate from college, get accepted into a masters or law or Ph.D. program, everyone is now looking for advanced math skills (and science as well).

The first question son was asked in college interviews was "how far have you gone in math?" "Calculus?". Nope, so now we are doing it as a summer course because the college wants calculus out of the way before he starts.

And for what it's worth, the most lucrative college majors now all require advanced STEM stills: Petroleum engineering, engineering of any kind, robotics, computer science. Even the coding of computers requires advanced math skills.

[quote=Anonymous]If you ever want to go to grad school for anything there will be algebra (and geometry, ugh) on the GRE, unless it has changed substantially. [/quote]

In my Antitrust course in law school, we used quadratic equations to measure marketshare of companies to prove or disprove the existence/size of monopolies, duopolies, oligopolies etc.

If you ever want to go to grad school for anything there will be algebra (and geometry, ugh) on the GRE, unless it has changed substantially.

People use algebra all the time without realizing it. In real life algebra doesn't come in the form of a neatly structured problem statement with x and y.

Anonymous wrote:It's not just about STEM. Ability to figure out things like area, volume, angles is needed in many trades for even the most basic tasks - for example estimating the square footage of tile needed for a bathroom. Likewise, Algebra is useful for a great many things, like in food service where Algebra could be useful for scaling ingredients for a recipe to serve a given number of people. A basic knowledge of statistics is also useful for many aspects of everyday life.

But to flip the original question on its head, why so eager to dumb Americans down?

But my daughter learned all that in 4th grade. That's not Algebra. IMO a good statistics course and some classes explaining interest rates would be WAY more useful for most people.

Anonymous wrote:I am a writer and use algebra all the time. It's a life skill, basic math. Past that, no, I wouldn't say most people "need" statistics or calculus (though they can be handy), but algebra? Basic, basic stuff.

I agree that algebra is a life skill, but statistics is too, perhaps even more. Many of the stupid decisions people make are due precisely to a lack of understanding of basic stats and probability.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Necessary if you want to attend a good college. And ultimately get a good job (yes, could be writer) from that college. All college admin officers are looking both for grades and depth of study. Colleges want to see Algebra I, II, Geometry, Pre-Calc, Calculus, statistics, computer math and linear equations in depth on the resume. The first question she was asked at VA University admin interviews was "have you had or are your taking calculus?" It's a hurdle one must get over just as taking algebra, Geometry, Trig, etc., was a prerequisite to getting into a good college even tho I never took another math class in college (other that statistics). But thats the old world. new world expects advanced math study before college. Fifteen year old son is taking Algebra II camp so he can move on to Geometry in the fall (AND - tah dah - he actually likes it! 6 hours of Algebra a day and homework. An entire year being done in one month. So far so good. Amost a one-on-one class.

Yes, this is the way it is. But is this necessary or desirable?

8:22, I am 1:47 (wrote above). I absolutely agree with you. The system is entirely broken. Kids are under too much stress. Our nation's colleges have managed to push the first and second years of college down onto our public and private high schools due to the advanced general, honors and AP courses being offered. That means these kids have to kill themselves to get a decent 4.3 GPA, ACT scores, do extraordinary things outside of school that merits a 6 min. read of their application, all the while getting insufficient sleep.

Anonymous wrote:With all the hype over Common Core, thought this question was worth pondering.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/29/opinion/sunday/is-algebra-necessary.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Nice read.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I figure we need to offer advanced math to all the kids in order to figure out who the smartones are. We don't have a shortage of STEM professionals, what we have is a surplus of dumbasses.

Actually, we do have a shortage of STEM professionals, which is why so many STEM professionals are coming to the US from places like China and India on visa.

So true. I work as a PhD Engineer. While we don't need even half the kids in STEM we need many more than we have now. Go to any grad school, technology company or science conference and you will be amazed at how few US citizens are there. Good for the world but I think we need to do better if we want to maintain our economy, they won't come here forever. You would be amazed at how much of the cutting edge work is being done outside of the US.

We need kids to take algebra etc. because we don't know who will be the ones to go into STEM.

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]It's not just about STEM. Ability to figure out things like area, volume, angles is needed in many trades for even the most basic tasks - for example estimating the square footage of tile needed for a bathroom. Likewise, Algebra is useful for a great many things, like in food service where Algebra could be useful for scaling ingredients for a recipe to serve a given number of people. A basic knowledge of statistics is also useful for many aspects of everyday life.

But to flip the original question on its head, why so eager to dumb Americans down?[/quote]


You're confusing Alg 1 and Alg II. I don't think anyone is suggesting American kids shouldn't take Alg I. The question that is being debated in alot of education discussion is whether Alg II should be required (not whether it should be offered btw).

The question is twofold: 1) Is it necessary for everyone, even if you're not going into a STEM areas...and because we are requiring it are we creating an unnecessary hurdle for some kids; and 2) Are we pushing Alg II at the expense of other math that might be just as critical if not more so for most kids. [/quote]

Then why not name the thread is Alg II necessary for all? IMHO: 1) yes, it is if you're going to plan a renovation, unless you want to depend blindly on contractors, or if you want to remodel a house or build something; and 2) Alg II is a traditional stepping stone for Stats or trigonometry -- and an absolute necessity for medicine, the sciences, computer sciences, engineering -- fields in which the US is rapidly losing ground to other nations.[/quote]

any data to back this up?