America is so terrible. How many Indians would give their left nut for a H-1b visa?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

CindyBindy wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Not PP but Brazil and India are not even comparable. The fact that person or others jokes about a type of hair is no more akin to racism than a red head joking about their hair color or a white person saying they are pale. The fact of the matter is Brazilians are infinitely more accepting of phenotypic and cultural differences than most countries on the planet including the US.

If a white person made a joke about nappy hair in America, do you think African Americans would just laugh it off? There has always been so much racial identity politics surrounding phenotypic differences that during the civil rights era, the Afro was an expression of celebrating pride in "nappy hair". I can guarantee you if someone who was not black made a joke about nappy hair in America today, the black community would blow up at him.

The point I was trying to make about the hair comment in Brazil - and I think I explained this above - was that in developing countries the sense of political correctness is different. Maybe people are misunderstanding that because I immediately talked about the Chinese cab driver next, and that was racism. In much of the developing world, people don't really have any sense of political correctness, or at least not the way Americans do. In India for example, you can't say the phrase "lower caste" or "untouchable" - the term is "scheduled caste" or "scheduled tribe". But I have also heard an Indian lady say to her tanned, sporty, outdoorsy child, "You look like a n*gro". Is she racist or just unaware that you can't say that? (and let's not discuss her color prejudice - that is different from racial prejudice) Well, I've seen how she treats Africans so I don't think she's racist, anymore than a white Brazilian who makes fun of "nappy hair". That was my point. Apologies if I didn't make this clear the first time.

PP you responded to... It has no bearing whether AA's get sensitive when someone talks about their hair. It only proves that they are sensitive and insecure. The point when they are not sensitive and comments about differences are not a big deal will be a huge step forward in the US. Brazil and several other countries are beyond that. The US is not the standard here... And this has little to do with developing vs developed country. This has to do with in Brazil whites and blacks are more intertwined, have a shared culture and history. In the US they are completely separate so they feel they need to walk on egg shells around eachother.

NP here and I am HIGHLY offended by your comment. How dare you insinuate that black people are sensitive and insecure about issues that stem from hundreds of years of oppression, racism and discrimination? Please get your head out of your ass.

see, here's the problem. People can't discuss this stuff rationally - a post like this will always pop up and them people clam up and stop trying.

A PP just insulted AA's and you call that a "rational" discussion. Come on! Somebody said something ignorant and got called on it and THAT is the problem? And for the record, White people are among the most insecure and sensitive people around and I AM White.

Anonymous wrote:so what's up with those dots on their foreheads? I've seen some of them on the airplane; they are very arrogant and act like their shit doesn't stink. They really treat the crew like garbage. So what is up with that?

I'm not offended by trolling so don't bother trying to provoke me, it's not going to work. It's the posters that are taking their ideas about how racist Indians are seriously and earnestly that worry me.

so what's up with those dots on their foreheads? I've seen some of them on the airplane; they are very arrogant and act like their shit doesn't stink. They really treat the crew like garbage. So what is up with that?

Anonymous wrote:^ when people say we can't talk about race this is why. You will be called racist and retarded and no one likes to be called that.
so nothing really ever changes.

Talking about race in an educated and informed matter is completely different from making blanket statements about a race and drawing wild conclusions from one anecdote which you consider to represent that entire race - which, by the way, is the very definition of racism. The reason people like you might not be able to talk about race is because you are unwilling to participate in a conversation in which nuances are defined and stereotypes discouraged. In which case, yes, you shouldn't be allowed to talk about race until you've educated yourself about it first.

^ when people say we can't talk about race this is why. You will be called racist and retarded and no one likes to be called that.
so nothing really ever changes.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Japan is pretty racially intolerant. If you are born in Japan, it doesn't make you automatically considered Japanese, i.e. you could still be considered Korean if you have Korean parents.

Also their term for a 1/2 Japanese, 1/2 other race person is "hafu", literally the English word for 1/2, like they are 1/2 a person.

For all of Japan's "racial intolerance", living there for two years was heaven for this African-American. I didn't have to deal with any overt racism like I do here.

And Japanese and Korean are nationalities, not races.

+1

Anonymous wrote:Japan is pretty racially intolerant. If you are born in Japan, it doesn't make you automatically considered Japanese, i.e. you could still be considered Korean if you have Korean parents.

Also their term for a 1/2 Japanese, 1/2 other race person is "hafu", literally the English word for 1/2, like they are 1/2 a person.

For all of Japan's "racial intolerance", living there for two years was heaven for this African-American. I didn't have to deal with any overt racism like I do here.

And Japanese and Korean are nationalities, not races.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

CindyBindy wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Not PP but Brazil and India are not even comparable. The fact that person or others jokes about a type of hair is no more akin to racism than a red head joking about their hair color or a white person saying they are pale. The fact of the matter is Brazilians are infinitely more accepting of phenotypic and cultural differences than most countries on the planet including the US.

If a white person made a joke about nappy hair in America, do you think African Americans would just laugh it off? There has always been so much racial identity politics surrounding phenotypic differences that during the civil rights era, the Afro was an expression of celebrating pride in "nappy hair". I can guarantee you if someone who was not black made a joke about nappy hair in America today, the black community would blow up at him.

The point I was trying to make about the hair comment in Brazil - and I think I explained this above - was that in developing countries the sense of political correctness is different. Maybe people are misunderstanding that because I immediately talked about the Chinese cab driver next, and that was racism. In much of the developing world, people don't really have any sense of political correctness, or at least not the way Americans do. In India for example, you can't say the phrase "lower caste" or "untouchable" - the term is "scheduled caste" or "scheduled tribe". But I have also heard an Indian lady say to her tanned, sporty, outdoorsy child, "You look like a n*gro". Is she racist or just unaware that you can't say that? (and let's not discuss her color prejudice - that is different from racial prejudice) Well, I've seen how she treats Africans so I don't think she's racist, anymore than a white Brazilian who makes fun of "nappy hair". That was my point. Apologies if I didn't make this clear the first time.

PP you responded to... It has no bearing whether AA's get sensitive when someone talks about their hair. It only proves that they are sensitive and insecure. The point when they are not sensitive and comments about differences are not a big deal will be a huge step forward in the US. Brazil and several other countries are beyond that. The US is not the standard here... And this has little to do with developing vs developed country. This has to do with in Brazil whites and blacks are more intertwined, have a shared culture and history. In the US they are completely separate so they feel they need to walk on egg shells around eachother.

NP here and I am HIGHLY offended by your comment. How dare you insinuate that black people are sensitive and insecure about issues that stem from hundreds of years of oppression, racism and discrimination? Please get your head out of your ass.

see, here's the problem. People can't discuss this stuff rationally - a post like this will always pop up and them people clam up and stop trying.

Actually, this is fucking racist. I agree with the poster who said it's bullshit to imply that black people are pussies who just can't handle "harmless" jokes about their hair. It's so fucking retarded that I can't form a response to it, because right now I'm dealing with equally idiotic ideas about India. There is only so much racism I can fight at one time. If I started arguing on behalf of blacks and Indians I'm definitely going to go mad, so I will sit here on the sidelines and occasionally pop into this debate to give my support.

Anonymous wrote:How can so many people grow up and be ignorant of the Indian caste system? Is this not taught in schools anymore? is world history not taught? Does no one read? See movies?

No one cares.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

CindyBindy wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Not PP but Brazil and India are not even comparable. The fact that person or others jokes about a type of hair is no more akin to racism than a red head joking about their hair color or a white person saying they are pale. The fact of the matter is Brazilians are infinitely more accepting of phenotypic and cultural differences than most countries on the planet including the US.

If a white person made a joke about nappy hair in America, do you think African Americans would just laugh it off? There has always been so much racial identity politics surrounding phenotypic differences that during the civil rights era, the Afro was an expression of celebrating pride in "nappy hair". I can guarantee you if someone who was not black made a joke about nappy hair in America today, the black community would blow up at him.

The point I was trying to make about the hair comment in Brazil - and I think I explained this above - was that in developing countries the sense of political correctness is different. Maybe people are misunderstanding that because I immediately talked about the Chinese cab driver next, and that was racism. In much of the developing world, people don't really have any sense of political correctness, or at least not the way Americans do. In India for example, you can't say the phrase "lower caste" or "untouchable" - the term is "scheduled caste" or "scheduled tribe". But I have also heard an Indian lady say to her tanned, sporty, outdoorsy child, "You look like a n*gro". Is she racist or just unaware that you can't say that? (and let's not discuss her color prejudice - that is different from racial prejudice) Well, I've seen how she treats Africans so I don't think she's racist, anymore than a white Brazilian who makes fun of "nappy hair". That was my point. Apologies if I didn't make this clear the first time.

PP you responded to... It has no bearing whether AA's get sensitive when someone talks about their hair. It only proves that they are sensitive and insecure. The point when they are not sensitive and comments about differences are not a big deal will be a huge step forward in the US. Brazil and several other countries are beyond that. The US is not the standard here... And this has little to do with developing vs developed country. This has to do with in Brazil whites and blacks are more intertwined, have a shared culture and history. In the US they are completely separate so they feel they need to walk on egg shells around eachother.

NP here and I am HIGHLY offended by your comment. How dare you insinuate that black people are sensitive and insecure about issues that stem from hundreds of years of oppression, racism and discrimination? Please get your head out of your ass.

see, here's the problem. People can't discuss this stuff rationally - a post like this will always pop up and them people clam up and stop trying.

Anonymous wrote:

Thank-you. Finally someone who knows what they are talking about.

Read my response above. Also, pencil in "Educate myself about world cultures before believing blanket stereotypes that have no basis in evidence" into your schedule for this weekend.

Anonymous wrote:

Cindy, I was born in India but have lived in the US for most of my life. Have visited India often for varying periods.

Okay. I lived in India for 5 years myself, so just so we both know we are on the same page. I also go back every year.

I would have to say that India (and for that matter Indians who spent their formative years in India) are not only conscious of race but of color and religion. It is endemic to every aspect of life there. The color of the skin is especially important which is why skin lightening products are huge sellers in India. A fair skinned person - especially a woman - is considered much more attractive than someone who is darker skinned which is why the matrimonial ads in India emphasize skin color. A woman who is light skinned but does not have particularly attractive features is more desirable than a darker skinned woman who may have better features.

I think everyone who is replying to this thread has been having some trouble reading my posts. I said very clearly in my previous post that color prejudice is distinct from racial prejudice. In case some people have difficulty reading my posts because their eyes spontaneously glaze over, let me quote myself:

" (and let's not discuss her color prejudice - that is different from racial prejudice)"

Color prejudice, which you might not be aware of, is distinct from racial identity. It also exists in every non-white society. Color politics plays a huge role in the African-American community. It discriminates in their romantic lives, their employment prospects with each other, and in every way they relate to their identity. When Obama was elected, the big thing for black women was not that the First Lady was African-American, but that she was dark-skinned. Finally, dark-skinned black women had a role model for themselves.

Skin-lightening also exists in China, Japan, Korea and south-east Asia too. It plays a huge role in Arab racism. Or are you not aware of Arab racism? Skin color politics is a big deal in Middle-eastern society.

By the way, I'm a very dark Indian woman. I did have to deal with skin color issues in India. I also had a lot of Indians assuring me that I was beautiful just the way I am. My dark skin never affected my Indian social life. It never affected how Indians treated me in public. I have never gotten bad service at a restaurant in comparison to a fairer skinned Indian. I have lived in India for years and traveled to every corner of the country, and at least 80% of my experiences have been acceptance and -gasp - indifference to my skin color.

And by the way, the fair skin obsession is 1) rooted in economic status, and 2) has not always been dominant in every aspect of Indian society. Fair skin has historically been about economic status. The lighter skin you have, the more proof that you have the luxury of chilling in your mansion while poor people get sunburned and hence "Dark". In every society this has been the case. That's why most of the literature about Queen Guinevere in Europe has referred to her "ivory skin". Why? Because that's how well-bred she was...she had ancestors of palace-dwellers behind her before she came to Camelot!

Also, dark skin has by no means ever been uniformly hated throughout Indian history. Draupadi had skin as black as ink. She also had five husbands who were demigods and loved her. Bheema's other wife, Hidimba, also had pitch-black skin. Medieval Mughal poetry in India had constant references to sanwali - the beauty of the poet's dark-skinned object of desire. Hell, even some of the Hindu gods are depicted as dark-skinned. Krishna was basically black. He also had ten thousand ladies eager to bang him.

Color prejudice exists in every non-white society, and the only reason whites don't care about being pale nowadays is because having a tan is an indication that you can travel to beachy countries instead of being trapped in your office all day. In that respect, India is no worse than any other country.

If we are talking about race, where on earth is there evidence that Indian society institutionally considers the Indian race superior to all other races? There is none. Because Indian society is a mosaic, and it would not have been able to be created without tolerance. The very fact that historically disadvantaged minorities, such as Tibetans, Jews and Parsis, have been able to not only find refuge in India but thrive and find economic prosperity, is testament to that. The fact that Arab, Persian and Afghan ethnic groups have melted into the fabric of Indian society and been able to celebrate their culture here is also testament to that. The history of Muslim kings protecting Hindu temples and Hindu kings protecting Muslim mosques is longer than the history of religious strife, and yet that history was largely buried for a long time, while untrue myths about tolerant Muslim kings such as Tipu Sultan have unfortunately endured.

With all that said, some amount of actual racism exists, but those people do not represent the majority of Indian society and in that respect India is not unique - every country has the same level of racism or more. I have never seen evidence of an India that is so virulently racist that it dwarfs every other country in the world, which is what you are claiming.

Even in the US, immigrant parents are much more receptive to their children marrying a white American than an African American. Then there is an almost universal hostility among both Hindus and Indian Christians to marriage with a Muslim. Hindus and Christians prefer that their children marry within the same religion and the same community but are mildly tolerant when they choose to inter-marry but marrying a Muslim is considered taboo and the parents would generally not tolerate it.

That is true, and it is not unique to Indian immigrants. Do you know a lot of first-generation Chinese immigrants, Japanese immigrants, Persian immigrants, Arab immigrants or Korean immigrants who would allow their kids to marry African-Americans? Are you even aware of the racism that goes on in those groups? It exists because they are first-gen immigrants. They are ignorant about African-American culture. They buy into the hood/gangsta stereotype and ignore pop culture examples like the Banks family from The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air. But this racism against blacks is a pan-immigrant problem. It is not unique to Indians. Nor does it prove that "India is one of the least racially tolerant countries in the world."

Furthermore, there are plenty of black-Indian couples. Just because the prevailing stereotype of what we see gets the most attention, that is no reason to ignore the non-racist interactions. My Indian friends and I have black men hitting on us all the time precisely because Indian girls have banged them in the past. Trust me, black men would never hit on us if they thought we were racists. They hit on us because they have experienced Indian girls making eyes at them.

There is open negative stereotyping of other races among many Indians who live in the US.

See above. Every single immigrant group in America does this. And not just non-white groups. I live in the northeast - you should eavesdrop on the conversations at an Irish or Italian dinner table some time.

I think to suggest that race, color and religion are not major prejudices among Indians especially in India is just misleading.

No, it's misleading to argue that 1) Indians are the only ones doing this, and 2) Indians are doing this to a greater extent than any other culture, and 3) all Indians are doing this. Which is what you are doing. And since you have actually lived in India, it's especially disappointing.

I could cite many positives when it comes to Indians whether in India or the US but racial and religious tolerance is not among them.

Crack open a history book some time.

Anonymous wrote:

CindyBindy wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Not PP but Brazil and India are not even comparable. The fact that person or others jokes about a type of hair is no more akin to racism than a red head joking about their hair color or a white person saying they are pale. The fact of the matter is Brazilians are infinitely more accepting of phenotypic and cultural differences than most countries on the planet including the US.

If a white person made a joke about nappy hair in America, do you think African Americans would just laugh it off? There has always been so much racial identity politics surrounding phenotypic differences that during the civil rights era, the Afro was an expression of celebrating pride in "nappy hair". I can guarantee you if someone who was not black made a joke about nappy hair in America today, the black community would blow up at him.

The point I was trying to make about the hair comment in Brazil - and I think I explained this above - was that in developing countries the sense of political correctness is different. Maybe people are misunderstanding that because I immediately talked about the Chinese cab driver next, and that was racism. In much of the developing world, people don't really have any sense of political correctness, or at least not the way Americans do. In India for example, you can't say the phrase "lower caste" or "untouchable" - the term is "scheduled caste" or "scheduled tribe". But I have also heard an Indian lady say to her tanned, sporty, outdoorsy child, "You look like a n*gro". Is she racist or just unaware that you can't say that? (and let's not discuss her color prejudice - that is different from racial prejudice) Well, I've seen how she treats Africans so I don't think she's racist, anymore than a white Brazilian who makes fun of "nappy hair". That was my point. Apologies if I didn't make this clear the first time.

PP you responded to... It has no bearing whether AA's get sensitive when someone talks about their hair. It only proves that they are sensitive and insecure. The point when they are not sensitive and comments about differences are not a big deal will be a huge step forward in the US. Brazil and several other countries are beyond that. The US is not the standard here... And this has little to do with developing vs developed country. This has to do with in Brazil whites and blacks are more intertwined, have a shared culture and history. In the US they are completely separate so they feel they need to walk on egg shells around eachother.

NP here and I am HIGHLY offended by your comment. How dare you insinuate that black people are sensitive and insecure about issues that stem from hundreds of years of oppression, racism and discrimination? Please get your head out of your ass.

CindyBindy wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Not PP but Brazil and India are not even comparable. The fact that person or others jokes about a type of hair is no more akin to racism than a red head joking about their hair color or a white person saying they are pale. The fact of the matter is Brazilians are infinitely more accepting of phenotypic and cultural differences than most countries on the planet including the US.

If a white person made a joke about nappy hair in America, do you think African Americans would just laugh it off? There has always been so much racial identity politics surrounding phenotypic differences that during the civil rights era, the Afro was an expression of celebrating pride in "nappy hair". I can guarantee you if someone who was not black made a joke about nappy hair in America today, the black community would blow up at him.

The point I was trying to make about the hair comment in Brazil - and I think I explained this above - was that in developing countries the sense of political correctness is different. Maybe people are misunderstanding that because I immediately talked about the Chinese cab driver next, and that was racism. In much of the developing world, people don't really have any sense of political correctness, or at least not the way Americans do. In India for example, you can't say the phrase "lower caste" or "untouchable" - the term is "scheduled caste" or "scheduled tribe". But I have also heard an Indian lady say to her tanned, sporty, outdoorsy child, "You look like a n*gro". Is she racist or just unaware that you can't say that? (and let's not discuss her color prejudice - that is different from racial prejudice) Well, I've seen how she treats Africans so I don't think she's racist, anymore than a white Brazilian who makes fun of "nappy hair". That was my point. Apologies if I didn't make this clear the first time.

PP you responded to... It has no bearing whether AA's get sensitive when someone talks about their hair. It only proves that they are sensitive and insecure. The point when they are not sensitive and comments about differences are not a big deal will be a huge step forward in the US. Brazil and several other countries are beyond that. The US is not the standard here... And this has little to do with developing vs developed country. This has to do with in Brazil whites and blacks are more intertwined, have a shared culture and history. In the US they are completely separate so they feel they need to walk on egg shells around eachother.