Anonymous wrote:I'm very glad that most local atheists have "consciences," which they listen to, and which compel them to choose good and not evil.

But you don't HAVE to do that, if there is no Creator and there is nothing more than the material world. No one is going to ultimately hold you accountable for your actions. If there is no Lawgiver, no Absolute Standard (also called God), nothing ultimately matters.

That guy in Ohio? If he hadn't gotten caught? If he had woken up one morning, raped everyone one last time before slowing torturing them to death in front of one another before eating a fine meal and fallen peacefully asleep in his warm bed before dying in his sleep? They are all just dust. He just got the evolutionary upper hand, he had the power and he wasn't afraid to use it.

That's just as ok a life choice as any other. If there is no Lawgiver.

How was he caught and stopped? It wasn't Jesus that caught him and stopped him. In fact, the Catholic religion, to name but one, has a long and illustrious history of raping children without being held accountable for their actions. So clearly religion is not going to do the job of stopping kids being raped. In fact, if religion still reigned supreme I can guarantee you a lot more kids would be being raped.

What stopped him was that we have such a thing as society, as government, and as laws. The young girl signalled for help and a neighbor intervened. The police were called and arrested him. He will be put on trial and punished. Because of society, because of our ability and willingness to cooperate and work together, and to enforce mutually advantageous rules of behavior.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look at colonies of ants or bees and see how they cooperate. Do they cooperate because the sweet baby Jesus told them to? No, they cooperate as a result of evolution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes. This.

Bees are an example of the mindless imperative to cooperate regardless of morality.

It's when an organism becomes more intelligent, more emotionally sophisticated, that cooperation requires empathy - the desire to avoid causing pain to others, the desire to see others experience well being and joy.

In the absence of a developed sense of empathy, one might require, say, an organized religion to enforce mutually beneficial behaviors.

Yes, but bees have no concept of good and evil (I guess, I don't really know). Humans have this concept. Why? What originally dictated what is good and what is evil? To simply say that society dictates it speaks to the product, not the creator.

I have repeatedly answered this. I believe it is pain -> intelligence -> empathy. Have you stated why you reject this explanation?

What causes it to be painful?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Yes, but bees have no concept of good and evil (I guess, I don't really know). Humans have this concept. Why? What originally dictated what is good and what is evil? To simply say that society dictates it speaks to the product, not the creator.

Do you understand that good and evil are not constant - that different societies interpret them differently? So how is this compatible with one creator determing what they were?

Actually, they are. Can you name acts that were once totally good that are now totally evil?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look at colonies of ants or bees and see how they cooperate. Do they cooperate because the sweet baby Jesus told them to? No, they cooperate as a result of evolution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes. This.

Bees are an example of the mindless imperative to cooperate regardless of morality.

It's when an organism becomes more intelligent, more emotionally sophisticated, that cooperation requires empathy - the desire to avoid causing pain to others, the desire to see others experience well being and joy.

In the absence of a developed sense of empathy, one might require, say, an organized religion to enforce mutually beneficial behaviors.

Yes, but bees have no concept of good and evil (I guess, I don't really know). Humans have this concept. Why? What originally dictated what is good and what is evil? To simply say that society dictates it speaks to the product, not the creator.

We have explained this. Certain behaviors arise by chance as a result of mutation. If these behaviors confer advantages then they tend to proliferate in subsequent generations. The concept of good and bad conferred advantages, so they proliferated in subsequent generations, including all our ancestors.

So essentially you are saying that good/evil is the result of a mutation?

Do you feel every person who has claimed to have a life after death/near death experience or to have seen a spirit is not telling the truth? I do mean this as a serious question. I wonder about this especially when a loved one dies. I think many of us hold on to religion because we don't want to be separated from those we love most.

I'm very glad that most local atheists have "consciences," which they listen to, and which compel them to choose good and not evil.

But you don't HAVE to do that, if there is no Creator and there is nothing more than the material world. No one is going to ultimately hold you accountable for your actions. If there is no Lawgiver, no Absolute Standard (also called God), nothing ultimately matters.

That guy in Ohio? If he hadn't gotten caught? If he had woken up one morning, raped everyone one last time before slowing torturing them to death in front of one another before eating a fine meal and fallen peacefully asleep in his warm bed before dying in his sleep? They are all just dust. He just got the evolutionary upper hand, he had the power and he wasn't afraid to use it.

That's just as ok a life choice as any other. If there is no Lawgiver.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look at colonies of ants or bees and see how they cooperate. Do they cooperate because the sweet baby Jesus told them to? No, they cooperate as a result of evolution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes. This.

Bees are an example of the mindless imperative to cooperate regardless of morality.

It's when an organism becomes more intelligent, more emotionally sophisticated, that cooperation requires empathy - the desire to avoid causing pain to others, the desire to see others experience well being and joy.

In the absence of a developed sense of empathy, one might require, say, an organized religion to enforce mutually beneficial behaviors.

Yes, but bees have no concept of good and evil (I guess, I don't really know). Humans have this concept. Why? What originally dictated what is good and what is evil? To simply say that society dictates it speaks to the product, not the creator.

Again, which creator are you talking about? Have you ever taken time to read up on creator gods, besides the one you believe in? Why does that particular creator god resonate with you?

Concepts of "good" and "bad" are not inherent in nature or humans. What is inherent in humans, is a desire for order and structure - to make and create social patterns that we can predict and have greater control of. Those orders and structures obviously change depending on what society thinks is important, but we all have the inherent need to have order - though the details change as cultures change. That's why there are so many religions and gods - they're somewhat codified examples of the order and structure created in a particular socio-cultural context. But as the needs change, the details change. You never lose the need for order & structure, however - but the specificities evolve to suit new socio-cultural needs.

What governs my life is that we are all in this together. We are one great big system. What I do affects you and vice versa. We cannot and do not live in a vacuum. Maybe I was born with it, or perhaps it came with life's lessons, but I have an acute sense of being part of something much bigger than I - nature, earth, the universe. Seriously.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look at colonies of ants or bees and see how they cooperate. Do they cooperate because the sweet baby Jesus told them to? No, they cooperate as a result of evolution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes. This.

Bees are an example of the mindless imperative to cooperate regardless of morality.

It's when an organism becomes more intelligent, more emotionally sophisticated, that cooperation requires empathy - the desire to avoid causing pain to others, the desire to see others experience well being and joy.

In the absence of a developed sense of empathy, one might require, say, an organized religion to enforce mutually beneficial behaviors.

Yes, but bees have no concept of good and evil (I guess, I don't really know). Humans have this concept. Why? What originally dictated what is good and what is evil? To simply say that society dictates it speaks to the product, not the creator.

I have repeatedly answered this. I believe it is pain -> intelligence -> empathy. Have you stated why you reject this explanation?

Anonymous wrote:

Yes, but bees have no concept of good and evil (I guess, I don't really know). Humans have this concept. Why? What originally dictated what is good and what is evil? To simply say that society dictates it speaks to the product, not the creator.

Do you understand that good and evil are not constant - that different societies interpret them differently? So how is this compatible with one creator determing what they were?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look at colonies of ants or bees and see how they cooperate. Do they cooperate because the sweet baby Jesus told them to? No, they cooperate as a result of evolution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes. This.

Bees are an example of the mindless imperative to cooperate regardless of morality.

It's when an organism becomes more intelligent, more emotionally sophisticated, that cooperation requires empathy - the desire to avoid causing pain to others, the desire to see others experience well being and joy.

In the absence of a developed sense of empathy, one might require, say, an organized religion to enforce mutually beneficial behaviors.

Yes, but bees have no concept of good and evil (I guess, I don't really know). Humans have this concept. Why? What originally dictated what is good and what is evil? To simply say that society dictates it speaks to the product, not the creator.

We have explained this. Certain behaviors arise by chance as a result of mutation. If these behaviors confer advantages then they tend to proliferate in subsequent generations. The concept of good and bad conferred advantages, so they proliferated in subsequent generations, including all our ancestors.

I treat people the way I want to be treated and apply common sense and morality as part of that approach. I disagree that traditional religion is the source of morality - to the contrary.

Anonymous wrote:Look at colonies of ants or bees and see how they cooperate. Do they cooperate because the sweet baby Jesus told them to? No, they cooperate as a result of evolution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes. This.

Bees are an example of the mindless imperative to cooperate regardless of morality.

It's when an organism becomes more intelligent, more emotionally sophisticated, that cooperation requires empathy - the desire to avoid causing pain to others, the desire to see others experience well being and joy.

In the absence of a developed sense of empathy, one might require, say, an organized religion to enforce mutually beneficial behaviors.

Yes, but bees have no concept of good and evil (I guess, I don't really know). Humans have this concept. Why? What originally dictated what is good and what is evil? To simply say that society dictates it speaks to the product, not the creator.

I am guided by common sense and gut feeling

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It would seem to me that atheists are a bit contradictory in their non-belief.

Most live a moral life, yet reject the idea that the concept of morality is a spiritual/religious one. In order for there to be good, there has to be a creator of good. Who *originally* dictated what is good and what is bad? Where did the concept come from?

We are not born with the ability to determine good from evil, right from wrong. That is why so many children are vulnerable to the ill intentions of dangerous people.

This is really so simple and we keep explaining it, yet you seem to keep misunderstanding.

Humans evolved with the propensity to develop a moral framework. They will consider some actions good and some bad. These will differ somewhat from society to society, but they are intrinsic to humans since as social animals we had to learn to cooperate, which involved developing and enforcing social norms by rewarding "good" behaviour and sanctioning "bad" behavior.

Relying on religion to determine good from bad is flawed, because religion developed in a particular society at a particular time. This can lead to problems when different value-systems have to coexist - Catholics who think abortion is murder with others who don't, for example. Instead, we have to rely on rationality to determine "good" and "bad" that ensure the maximum benefit to society as a whole.

I'm not misunderstanding, I just think we aren't communicating well with one another. You seem to want to start from Point B (society dictates what is good and what is bad) and I'm trying to figure out who (at Point A) decided that there is a such thing as good and evil? Am I making sense?