Anonymous wrote:You will have to pay for private schools....period. There are no magical safe and excellent public schools in the city. Even my most liberal public interest lawyer and social worker friends who are all about diversity ended up sending their kids to private schools in Baltimore.

I LOVE when liberals stupid ideology blows up in their face . Next thing you know they have a gun or armed security... Lol

By the way... "Global warming" is a f'ed up religion too!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you regret it or are you happy? We are thinking about making the move for jobs and for a better cost of living. We have two small kids here in DC (Arlington) but feel like, even though we make good salaries, it will never be enough financially to get what we want in this area. It seems that you need to make $300k at least to live comfortably as we'd like (house in a safe neighborhood in the city or Bethesda/N Arlington, walkable, not totally in need of major renovations). We feel like living here will mean we continue to scrape by and don't have extra money to take family vacations, pay for enrichment for our kids, etc. Baltimore is appealing because of the job offer and also for the lower cost of living. It seems one can live in a pretty area such as Roland Hill in the city, but real estate is much cheaper. I think we could even afford private elementary school there, which we could never do here in the DC area.

Anyway, does anyone have thoughts, particularly those that have made a similar move?

Roland park is not very similar to Bethesda/Arlington. Its more like McLean/CCMD some parts of NWDC. Towson is more similar to Arlington/ Bethesda.

Roland Park isn't anything like McLean. The homes are older so the comparison would be to Cleveland Park and CCDC, but less expensive and less safe. The equivalent of McLean in the Baltimore area is probably Lutherville/Timonium.

Anonymous wrote:love roland park, guilford, homeland housing stock. LOVE IT!

Agree, but PP is right that there are some "rough" areas in very close proximity.

Anonymous wrote:Do you regret it or are you happy? We are thinking about making the move for jobs and for a better cost of living. We have two small kids here in DC (Arlington) but feel like, even though we make good salaries, it will never be enough financially to get what we want in this area. It seems that you need to make $300k at least to live comfortably as we'd like (house in a safe neighborhood in the city or Bethesda/N Arlington, walkable, not totally in need of major renovations). We feel like living here will mean we continue to scrape by and don't have extra money to take family vacations, pay for enrichment for our kids, etc. Baltimore is appealing because of the job offer and also for the lower cost of living. It seems one can live in a pretty area such as Roland Hill in the city, but real estate is much cheaper. I think we could even afford private elementary school there, which we could never do here in the DC area.

Anyway, does anyone have thoughts, particularly those that have made a similar move?

Roland park is not very similar to Bethesda/Arlington. Its more like McLean/CCMD some parts of NWDC. Towson is more similar to Arlington/ Bethesda.

Anonymous wrote:It's important to look at Baltimore clearly, OP. You will be able to afford a much nicer house than you can afford in Bethesda or Chevy Chase. But you will be faced with a lot more crime. It's not something you'll see in the nicer neighborhoods of Baltimore, but it's something you live with. You never leave anything in your car, you always turn on your alarm, even if you're running out for 15 minutes to pick up the kids from school. The roads are atrocious and the drivers are horrible, even worse than DC drivers. There is not as much traffic as in DC, but whenever there's a problem (construction, for example, a parade, a special event), there is very little police traffic control, so you can get stuck for hours, literally.

There are a few decent public schools in the city, and some charter schools that are good, but extremely difficult to get into (just as in DC). Most of the city schools are atrocious, so you'll likely spend a minimum of 25K to send each child to school, including preschool. Yes, cheaper than DC privates, but not exactly cheap. Parochial schools are less expensive. The suburbs do have better schools. Howard county has the best schools, so if you can manage the commute to Ellicott City, you'll do well. Columbia has good and less good schools, so you'll have to be careful buying there. Catonsville I would skip, but it does have a good seafood restaurant and a nice wallpaper store. Ellicott City is mostly subdivisions and McMansions, although there's a cute central area that has some small stone houses and a lot of antiques stores and other touristy shops. Towson is just north of Baltimore, has good schools (in some parts) less good schools in others, so you have to be careful buying there.

Real estate is not cheap in the nicest areas, Roland Park, Guilford, Homeland, a few other pockets in the city. It's even more expensive in Towson, nearly as expensive as Arlington. If you want[b] a townhouse, you can get a lovely century-old rowhouse in Bolton Hill, but there is so much crime in the area that there's a private police force policing Bolton Hill at night.

Personally, I would not do it, OP. I don't think the charms of "charm city" are worth giving up the cosmopolitan live of DC.

However, if you have a good or great job offer, that's another story. As PPs have said, the job market sucks in Baltimore. If only one of you has a job, it's not likely the other will find work quickly or easily, unless you are in an extremely desirable field. Baltimore operates very much on old school ties, so if you have no network, you are not in a good position to find work, unless you are at Hopkins, in which case that's a different story.

There are other ways to make DC work, OP. I'd look at all of those before making the move to Baltimore, unless you don't mind moving back to DC if you decide Baltimore isn't for you.

Towson is nowhere close to being as expensive as Arlington - it's more than 50% cheaper. Roland Park is several times cheaper than CC. Still not cheap, but we are talking about nice, big, historic houses in 700k range that cost over 2 mil in CC.

plus Ravens > Redskins

I made the move from DC to Baltimore a few years ago and don't regret. I love the piece of mind that comes from living in an affordable area. Baltimore is definitely not as developed as DC, but when I want DC's amenities I can drive there in an hour. Baltimore has several great neighborhoods Lake Walker, Roland Park, Cedarcroft, and Bolton Hill just to name a few. Do not believe what others say regarding the schools. Overall the public schools are not good, but there are several good schools within the system that are nationally recognized (i.e. Roland Park Elementary, Baltimore Polytechnic High, Mount Washington Elementary), and in nice neighborhoods. I cannot comment on the job market as I own my own business.

NP here. We are also considering moving to Baltimore because of proximity to DH job and cheaper real estate. We are looking at Canton, Federal Hill, Inner Harbor and Harbor East. Any thoughts on any of these?

The mayor of Baltimore is not corrupt, but the city council is full of old-time Baltimorons of questionable ethics. The schools are terrible, the taxes are extremely high, the police are outgunned by the drug dealers and gang members, the city is dirty and rundown. Why anyone would leave DC or Arlington to come to Baltimore beats me.

It's not that cheap. Yes, you can buy a beautiful house in Roland Park for half what you'd pay in CCDC, but the taxes, which you'll pay every year, are double what you'd pay in the district, you can't use most of the public schools (except Roland Park Elementary, which is OK, but not great). The crime problem is ongoing and something the police cannot handle. Roland Park has relatively little crime, but there were some carjackings a few months ago right in the nicest part of Roland Park.

I used to live in Manhattan, and I got tired of always having my guard up, looking behind me, over my shoulder, ready at every moment to be mugged. That's kind of what living in Roland Park is like, which is very strange since Roland Park looks just like a beautiful suburb with century-old Victorians, tree-lined streets, quiet and peaceful. Go west a few blocks, or south, and you are in less desirable, and definitely more crime-ridden areas of Baltimore. And that crime strays into Roland Park on a regular basis.

It's a terrible shame, really, because Baltimore is an absolutely beautiful city with gorgeous neighborhoods, beautiful parks, stunning older neighborhoods filled with hundred-year-old enormous townhouses that are breathtakingly beautiful. But look closely at these neighborhoods, and the houses are run down, the paint is peeling, the grass isn't cut, there are check-cashing places stuck onto antique brick buildings with stained glass windows and green tile roofs.

The only thing that's going to save Baltimore is high speed rail to DC that will bring in lots of money to fix up Baltimore's exceptionally lovely neighborhoods. The above-mentioned buildings can be had for a song, gorgeous architectural details and all. They were lovely middle-class neighborhoods back in the 1960s when Baltimore was legally segregated. The middle class (black and white) left the city in droves, leaving behind rows of 1920s bungalows, intact and stunning, attractive shopping areas built in the 1920s, golf courses and huge, grassy parks. Poor people who couldn't afford to leave moved into the huge houses, couldn't afford to maintain them, so the houses are now deteriorating, architectural treasure falling to ruin because no one with money cares to save them.

High speed rail will save Baltimore, but it's not coming. No one is coming. I am not going to live long enough to see the salvation of Baltimore, if there's anything left to save by then. It's tragic to see a historic and once-noble city brought to its knees, with no rescue in sight.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:without kids, mt. vernon was awesome to live in. cool housing stock, great collection of restaurants all walkable, and my local pub was brewers art, walkable to the walters art museum..just cool.

What I think needs to happen is for baltimore to create tax incentives to house back office or lower value-added work for companies housed in DC given that real estate is cheaper.

Baltimore politics is really shitty and a lot of the ills have to do with very poor management of the city. The city has great bones but needs a wide variety of jobs (besides JHU/UMD/hospital jobs).

There is no reason for many 'lower level' jobs that are crammed in the DC area not to relocate to baltimore. Have execs, high value-added, and client-facing workers stay in dc area but move the rest to baltimore. This would bring in the type of middle-class and educated people baltimore needs to become a nice city.

I worked in Mt. Vernon for a while, and I did not feel it was safe to walk around alone after dark. It's fine if you are always with someone or in a group, but if you live there and have to walk around alone, it's a different story. I also found the parking situation there to be a nightmare. The city tickets often. And the problem with city living in Baltimore is that you still need a car.

I just think different people have different comfort-levels or tolerances for what 'safe' is.

I had zero issues during the 2 years i lived in mt. vernon (this was in 5-6 years ago)...would walk around alone after dark all the time.

i'm a short skinny asian person though who spent time growning up in a majority black neighborhood during elementary school so my comfort levels are different than a petite young blonde from great falls.

I think comfort level is a product of experience. I'm not a petite blonde from great falls, but I was uncomfortable there. That's because I had close calls. I also worked in the area when one homeless person murdered another on the steps of the basilica. Before that happened, I had sort of regarded the large population of panhandlers as relatively harmless. After that, I felt differently. (and I understand there's a lot of mental illness, et cetera, so I'm not trying to demonize the homeless. I'm just saying that in that area there's a large presence at night of potentially dangerous people and the streets are otherwise empty -- no police, not a lot of passersby -- so it's a recipe for a problem). Perhaps if I hadn't known about some of the incidents that happened around there, I would have felt fine, too. And incidents like the one I mentioned above don't tend to get a lot of press. Shootings get attention in the papers. But stabbings and muggings don't.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:without kids, mt. vernon was awesome to live in. cool housing stock, great collection of restaurants all walkable, and my local pub was brewers art, walkable to the walters art museum..just cool.

What I think needs to happen is for baltimore to create tax incentives to house back office or lower value-added work for companies housed in DC given that real estate is cheaper.

Baltimore politics is really shitty and a lot of the ills have to do with very poor management of the city. The city has great bones but needs a wide variety of jobs (besides JHU/UMD/hospital jobs).

There is no reason for many 'lower level' jobs that are crammed in the DC area not to relocate to baltimore. Have execs, high value-added, and client-facing workers stay in dc area but move the rest to baltimore. This would bring in the type of middle-class and educated people baltimore needs to become a nice city.

I worked in Mt. Vernon for a while, and I did not feel it was safe to walk around alone after dark. It's fine if you are always with someone or in a group, but if you live there and have to walk around alone, it's a different story. I also found the parking situation there to be a nightmare. The city tickets often. And the problem with city living in Baltimore is that you still need a car.

I just think different people have different comfort-levels or tolerances for what 'safe' is.

I had zero issues during the 2 years i lived in mt. vernon (this was in 5-6 years ago)...would walk around alone after dark all the time.

i'm a short skinny asian person though who spent time growning up in a majority black neighborhood during elementary school so my comfort levels are different than a petite young blonde from great falls.

Anonymous wrote:I love Baltimore! I lived in Guilford. Gorgeous old houses, quiet streets, but walking distance to stores in Charles Village and a traffic free ten minutes downtown or twenty minutes to suburban shopping. Bmore is cheaper and easier than DC because it's less congested. I'd move back if we had jobs there!

That's the key -- jobs.

And it's not just a matter of getting a job, but also it's about having some sort of confidence that if you lose that job, there is some kind of job market there in which to find another. That wasn't my experience.

I recently helped someone who was facing a layoff, and all of the job opportunities were in the DC area. It's ridiculous in a way, because the area is so congested. Meanwhile, companies are hesitant to locate in Baltimore because of the crime/dysfunction of city government.

Hunt Valley (a wealthier suburb north of Baltimore) does have a little IT corridor. But it's nothing near the IT corridor in NOVA.

Anonymous wrote:without kids, mt. vernon was awesome to live in. cool housing stock, great collection of restaurants all walkable, and my local pub was brewers art, walkable to the walters art museum..just cool.

What I think needs to happen is for baltimore to create tax incentives to house back office or lower value-added work for companies housed in DC given that real estate is cheaper.

Baltimore politics is really shitty and a lot of the ills have to do with very poor management of the city. The city has great bones but needs a wide variety of jobs (besides JHU/UMD/hospital jobs).

There is no reason for many 'lower level' jobs that are crammed in the DC area not to relocate to baltimore. Have execs, high value-added, and client-facing workers stay in dc area but move the rest to baltimore. This would bring in the type of middle-class and educated people baltimore needs to become a nice city.

I worked in Mt. Vernon for a while, and I did not feel it was safe to walk around alone after dark. It's fine if you are always with someone or in a group, but if you live there and have to walk around alone, it's a different story. I also found the parking situation there to be a nightmare. The city tickets often. And the problem with city living in Baltimore is that you still need a car.

Anonymous wrote:I love Baltimore! I lived in Guilford. Gorgeous old houses, quiet streets, but walking distance to stores in Charles Village and a traffic free ten minutes downtown or twenty minutes to suburban shopping. Bmore is cheaper and easier than DC because it's less congested. I'd move back if we had jobs there!

+1 Guilford was a superb place to live. I lived first in Mt. Vernon, then in Guilford.

I think that's what everyone in this thread who likes baltimore has noted as the problem. The city gov needs to really get serious on attracting jobs from higher cost locales to the city. Good middle class, decent jobs.

The only people I know left in baltimore are doctors or grew up in baltimore county.

I love Baltimore! I lived in Guilford. Gorgeous old houses, quiet streets, but walking distance to stores in Charles Village and a traffic free ten minutes downtown or twenty minutes to suburban shopping. Bmore is cheaper and easier than DC because it's less congested. I'd move back if we had jobs there!