Anonymous
02/25/2013 06:42
Subject: If your spouse was a big law counsel/senior associate & did not make partner the first time up, then
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The top firm on most lists does not have offices in DC.
With respect to OP's question, what kind of feedback did he get about why he wasn't partner? He should know based on those conversations whether he's got a good chance next year and the revenue/business case just isn't quite there, or whether it's really time to look around.
If he doesn't have a confidante in the partner ranks who can give him this kind of frank info, he's probably not in a position to make it, honestly.
OP here. Thanks everyone for their posts relating to my topic.
My spouse is a counsel/senior associate and is not eligible yet for partnership, but it is on the horizon and there is a feeling that our livelihood is tied to making partner (home, schools, lifestyle, extracurricular activities, etc). As each year passes and we are closer to finding out we have pits in our stomachs. I am trying to be supportive and not show my anxiety because my spouse is stressed and working a lot.
My spouse has been told there is a good chance of making partner, but that you never know until the vote. It seems the voting is very secretive and involves much politics. Is this right?
OP: Each firm is different, so it's hard to generalize about what will make the difference when it comes to making partner. As a general matter I found it was best to think of it from the partners' perspective. Making someone a partner is a decision to let that person own a part of your business, so it makes sense that firms are selective, and that the process is not always entirely rational. Generally, you want to be in a practice area that's a growth area for your firm or alternatively have convinced enough partners (in some firms enough of the right partners) that you're developing a practice area that will be a growth area for the firm. Law firms make money on the backs of associates, so the ideal partner runs a lot of matters that keep a lot of associates billing a lot of hours. With all that in mind, you can see how many factors can affect the decision despite your DH's best efforts. He could be in the wrong practice area, or in the right one but at a time when business is in a downturn. He could have knowingly or unknowingly pissed off the wrong partner who will be a douche and doom his chances. He could be doing awesome work in the right practice area, but for a partner who doesn't have the pull or the interest to help him in the ways he needs to be helped.
And if he doesn't make it, what happens depends on the firm. When it happened to me, I was told that I could stay permanently in my same practice area or try again in a different (high grown for the firm) practice area, so I wasn't afraid I'd be of out of a job. I had basically resolved to switch to the other practice area when I found a government job that was in my preferred practice area, and I took it.
It was the best decision I could have made. I had been in biglaw so long that I didn't understand what I was missing. My whole conception of myself and all of my creativity was tied up in my job. I had no other interests (other than my kids) but I didn't realize there was anything wrong with that. In my new job I do the work that I like, but I work sane hours. And when I come home it turns out there are other things I want to do, and some of them are even related to the law like writing articles. I had the same ideas while in biglaw but now I have time to actually do them.
The money loss was tough -- my salary went down by 1/2. But surprisingly it hasn't hurt too much. The most important thing is probably whether your kids are in private school and the size of your mortgage. If you think this might be on the horizon plan for it now by going charter or possibly moving to MD or VA for the public schools. Buy down your mortgage and refinance at a low rate you'll be able to afford on the lower salary.
OP here. Thank you for your reply and for all of the other subject relevant replies. Somehow the thread has been hijacked surrounding a discussion as to the top law firm in DC and whether a SAHM made the statement.
Anonymous
02/23/2013 21:08
Subject: If your spouse was a big law counsel/senior associate & did not make partner the first time up, then
Anonymous wrote:Clearly her husband works at W&C. Is it the tip top firm in DC? That depends on who you ask. But its unquestionably up there and it is the one she means.
What makes you say that?
Anonymous
02/23/2013 12:35
Subject: If your spouse was a big law counsel/senior associate & did not make partner the first time up, then
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The top firm on most lists does not have offices in DC.
With respect to OP's question, what kind of feedback did he get about why he wasn't partner? He should know based on those conversations whether he's got a good chance next year and the revenue/business case just isn't quite there, or whether it's really time to look around.
If he doesn't have a confidante in the partner ranks who can give him this kind of frank info, he's probably not in a position to make it, honestly.
OP here. Thanks everyone for their posts relating to my topic.
My spouse is a counsel/senior associate and is not eligible yet for partnership, but it is on the horizon and there is a feeling that our livelihood is tied to making partner (home, schools, lifestyle, extracurricular activities, etc). As each year passes and we are closer to finding out we have pits in our stomachs. I am trying to be supportive and not show my anxiety because my spouse is stressed and working a lot.
My spouse has been told there is a good chance of making partner, but that you never know until the vote. It seems the voting is very secretive and involves much politics. Is this right?
OP: Each firm is different, so it's hard to generalize about what will make the difference when it comes to making partner. As a general matter I found it was best to think of it from the partners' perspective. Making someone a partner is a decision to let that person own a part of your business, so it makes sense that firms are selective, and that the process is not always entirely rational. Generally, you want to be in a practice area that's a growth area for your firm or alternatively have convinced enough partners (in some firms enough of the right partners) that you're developing a practice area that will be a growth area for the firm. Law firms make money on the backs of associates, so the ideal partner runs a lot of matters that keep a lot of associates billing a lot of hours. With all that in mind, you can see how many factors can affect the decision despite your DH's best efforts. He could be in the wrong practice area, or in the right one but at a time when business is in a downturn. He could have knowingly or unknowingly pissed off the wrong partner who will be a douche and doom his chances. He could be doing awesome work in the right practice area, but for a partner who doesn't have the pull or the interest to help him in the ways he needs to be helped.
And if he doesn't make it, what happens depends on the firm. When it happened to me, I was told that I could stay permanently in my same practice area or try again in a different (high grown for the firm) practice area, so I wasn't afraid I'd be of out of a job. I had basically resolved to switch to the other practice area when I found a government job that was in my preferred practice area, and I took it.
It was the best decision I could have made. I had been in biglaw so long that I didn't understand what I was missing. My whole conception of myself and all of my creativity was tied up in my job. I had no other interests (other than my kids) but I didn't realize there was anything wrong with that. In my new job I do the work that I like, but I work sane hours. And when I come home it turns out there are other things I want to do, and some of them are even related to the law like writing articles. I had the same ideas while in biglaw but now I have time to actually do them.
The money loss was tough -- my salary went down by 1/2. But surprisingly it hasn't hurt too much. The most important thing is probably whether your kids are in private school and the size of your mortgage. If you think this might be on the horizon plan for it now by going charter or possibly moving to MD or VA for the public schools. Buy down your mortgage and refinance at a low rate you'll be able to afford on the lower salary.
Anonymous
02/23/2013 12:12
Subject: Re:If your spouse was a big law counsel/senior associate & did not make partner the first time up, t
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Wilmer Cutler Pickering Hale and Dorr LLP,
Arnold & Porter LLP
Covington & Burling
Williams Connelly
It depends on what specialty.
Is this in order?
There is no order. Ask 10 people and you'll get that many answers. And remember, Howrey was on this list 3 years ago.
Let me guess, you listed the top on vault.com
The real attys here know that you need to know the specialty to get the real answer for top-3.
I wouldn't put Arnold and Porter in my list of top five DC firms.
Or Wilmer and noooo definitely not Howrey. The person who came up with this list has been spending too much time with their nose in a Washingtonian magazine and not enough time in the real world. And it's true, it depends on specialty...so if you're talking corporate law, none of these firms are "top."
Why not Arnold & Porter? If the question is corporate law, you'd want to look into New York. And I hope no one would put Howrey on the list today, except if you are living in a time warp.
What would your top five DC firms be? And why? Obviously, firms vary in terms of specialties, but if you had to pick five DC BigLaw firms generally, what would you choose?
I thought vault.com was something that gave law students something to do. I didn't realize people actually in the field paid much attention to it.
I was going to post the same thing about Arnold & Porter. I base it on a Legal Times article from a few years ago comparing D.C. firms along various metrics. Basically, 15 years ago you would have had Covington, Hogan, and A&P as your top D.C.-based 3, but A&P has stagnated while the Covington & Hogan have thrived. Wilmer was clearly in the top 10 15 years ago, and then edged up to the top 3 or 4 when it decided not to be a lifestyle firm anymore. Then they merged with Hale & Dorr and entered a period of culture clash. Their stock ticked back up when they sent a bunch of attorneys to the Obama administration (and back). Meanwhile Williams & Connelly has gone from a small but somewhat weird and insular litigation powerhouse to something closer to the Biglaw model, adding a significant appellate practice with Kannon Shanmugam. Hogan sent John Roberts to the D.C. Court of Appeals and then the Supreme Court, but got a Solicitor General back (albeit one who's less glamorous than Roberts). Covington has also sent some top talent to the administration, but they seem to be sticking around for another term.
Of course this is all based on the traditional DC firms. There have been other changes in the market which make the DC offices of non-DC firms contenders for the top "DC firms." Off the top of my head I'd say that Akin Gump, Gibson, Kirkland, and O'Melveny merit serious consideration.
I worked at one of the firms listed in this post, and I would say that firm is #1, but I have no doubt that many people who work at the other firms would say something different.
Anonymous
02/23/2013 11:29
Subject: If your spouse was a big law counsel/senior associate & did not make partner the first time up, then
Clearly her husband works at W&C. Is it the tip top firm in DC? That depends on who you ask. But its unquestionably up there and it is the one she means.
Anonymous
02/23/2013 10:32
Subject: Re:If your spouse was a big law counsel/senior associate & did not make partner the first time up, t
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Wilmer Cutler Pickering Hale and Dorr LLP,
Arnold & Porter LLP
Covington & Burling
Williams Connelly
It depends on what specialty.
Is this in order?
There is no order. Ask 10 people and you'll get that many answers. And remember, Howrey was on this list 3 years ago.
Let me guess, you listed the top on vault.com
The real attys here know that you need to know the specialty to get the real answer for top-3.
I wouldn't put Arnold and Porter in my list of top five DC firms.
Or Wilmer and noooo definitely not Howrey. The person who came up with this list has been spending too much time with their nose in a Washingtonian magazine and not enough time in the real world. And it's true, it depends on specialty...so if you're talking corporate law, none of these firms are "top."
Why not Arnold & Porter? If the question is corporate law, you'd want to look into New York. And I hope no one would put Howrey on the list today, except if you are living in a time warp.
What would your top five DC firms be? And why? Obviously, firms vary in terms of specialties, but if you had to pick five DC BigLaw firms generally, what would you choose?
I thought vault.com was something that gave law students something to do. I didn't realize people actually in the field paid much attention to it.
Well, it DOES depend on your specialty. I do antitrust so A&P and Williams & Connelly, while good firms, are not on my list and Howrey might have been 5 years ago. A corporate list would be different from an FDA list from a patent list from an ITC list...etc. I'd say whoever wrote the original list is a litigator.
Anonymous
02/23/2013 10:21
Subject: If your spouse was a big law counsel/senior associate & did not make partner the first time up, then
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I know in DH's biglaw firm it is not unheard of for an associate to make it the second time. Think big 3.
There is no such thing as a "Big 3" law firm. You have spent too much time on the private school boards.
+1
Okay sorry- Top 3. Just don't want to say the exact name. Basically it's the top 1. Do a survey- look at Above the Law, Washingtonian, whatever. Tip top.
I bet your husband's lover knows more about his field than you do. There is no "tip top" ranking in DC. Sure there is in NY, as it is an industry town and that industry has cash. Here it is all about the practice area, the rankings come next. The law student -and at this point- wanna be law student -blog you frequent probably doesn't get into that though, and I'm sure your husband doesn't respect your opinion enough to discuss it with you.
Anonymous
02/23/2013 09:51
Subject: If your spouse was a big law counsel/senior associate & did not make partner the first time up, then
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The top firm on most lists does not have offices in DC.
With respect to OP's question, what kind of feedback did he get about why he wasn't partner? He should know based on those conversations whether he's got a good chance next year and the revenue/business case just isn't quite there, or whether it's really time to look around.
If he doesn't have a confidante in the partner ranks who can give him this kind of frank info, he's probably not in a position to make it, honestly.
OP here. Thanks everyone for their posts relating to my topic.
My spouse is a counsel/senior associate and is not eligible yet for partnership, but it is on the horizon and there is a feeling that our livelihood is tied to making partner (home, schools, lifestyle, extracurricular activities, etc). As each year passes and we are closer to finding out we have pits in our stomachs. I am trying to be supportive and not show my anxiety because my spouse is stressed and working a lot.
My spouse has been told there is a good chance of making partner, but that you never know until the vote. It seems the voting is very secretive and involves much politics. Is this right?
My husband and I have never based our financial lives on him making partner. Talk about pressure and risk! But then I'm also an attorney myself so I don't have to pressure the guy. Unless your husband has a portable book of business I'd say making partner is a risk, especially depending on the broader economy. Most places seem to make counsel until rainmaking is proven unless you're coming in from high up in the government. I'd suggest you make some lifestyle adjustments now. We've been saving a ton for years so that the shift will be less painful and we don't live on that full income.
Anonymous
02/22/2013 21:03
Subject: Re:If your spouse was a big law counsel/senior associate & did not make partner the first time up, t
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Wilmer Cutler Pickering Hale and Dorr LLP,
Arnold & Porter LLP
Covington & Burling
Williams Connelly
It depends on what specialty.
Is this in order?
There is no order. Ask 10 people and you'll get that many answers. And remember, Howrey was on this list 3 years ago.
Let me guess, you listed the top on vault.com
The real attys here know that you need to know the specialty to get the real answer for top-3.
I wouldn't put Arnold and Porter in my list of top five DC firms.
Or Wilmer and noooo definitely not Howrey. The person who came up with this list has been spending too much time with their nose in a Washingtonian magazine and not enough time in the real world. And it's true, it depends on specialty...so if you're talking corporate law, none of these firms are "top."
Why not Arnold & Porter? If the question is corporate law, you'd want to look into New York. And I hope no one would put Howrey on the list today, except if you are living in a time warp.
What would your top five DC firms be? And why? Obviously, firms vary in terms of specialties, but if you had to pick five DC BigLaw firms generally, what would you choose?
I thought vault.com was something that gave law students something to do. I didn't realize people actually in the field paid much attention to it.
Anonymous
02/22/2013 17:42
Subject: Re:If your spouse was a big law counsel/senior associate & did not make partner the first time up, t
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Wilmer Cutler Pickering Hale and Dorr LLP,
Arnold & Porter LLP
Covington & Burling
Williams Connelly
It depends on what specialty.
Is this in order?
There is no order. Ask 10 people and you'll get that many answers. And remember, Howrey was on this list 3 years ago.
Let me guess, you listed the top on vault.com
The real attys here know that you need to know the specialty to get the real answer for top-3.
I wouldn't put Arnold and Porter in my list of top five DC firms.
Or Wilmer and noooo definitely not Howrey. The person who came up with this list has been spending too much time with their nose in a Washingtonian magazine and not enough time in the real world. And it's true, it depends on specialty...so if you're talking corporate law, none of these firms are "top."
Anonymous
02/22/2013 16:13
Subject: Re:If your spouse was a big law counsel/senior associate & did not make partner the first time up, t
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Wilmer Cutler Pickering Hale and Dorr LLP,
Arnold & Porter LLP
Covington & Burling
Williams Connelly
It depends on what specialty.
Is this in order?
There is no order. Ask 10 people and you'll get that many answers. And remember, Howrey was on this list 3 years ago.
Let me guess, you listed the top on vault.com
The real attys here know that you need to know the specialty to get the real answer for top-3.
I wouldn't put Arnold and Porter in my list of top five DC firms.
Anonymous
02/22/2013 15:25
Subject: Re:If your spouse was a big law counsel/senior associate & did not make partner the first time up, t
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Wilmer Cutler Pickering Hale and Dorr LLP,
Arnold & Porter LLP
Covington & Burling
Williams Connelly
It depends on what specialty.
Is this in order?
There is no order. Ask 10 people and you'll get that many answers. And remember, Howrey was on this list 3 years ago.
Let me guess, you listed the top on vault.com
The real attys here know that you need to know the specialty to get the real answer for top-3.
Anonymous
02/22/2013 15:14
Subject: If your spouse was a big law counsel/senior associate & did not make partner the first time up, then
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I know in DH's biglaw firm it is not unheard of for an associate to make it the second time. Think big 3.
There is no such thing as a "Big 3" law firm. You have spent too much time on the private school boards.
+1
Okay sorry- Top 3. Just don't want to say the exact name. Basically it's the top 1. Do a survey- look at Above the Law, Washingtonian, whatever. Tip top.
Oh, pathetic SAHM, trying to ride your husband's professional (and financial) coattails.
I am a SAHM and we made the decision together. Suck it.
Bizarre, I am the one who made the comment and am not a SAHM!
Anonymous
02/22/2013 12:45
Subject: If your spouse was a big law counsel/senior associate & did not make partner the first time up, then
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I know in DH's biglaw firm it is not unheard of for an associate to make it the second time. Think big 3.
There is no such thing as a "Big 3" law firm. You have spent too much time on the private school boards.
+1
Okay sorry- Top 3. Just don't want to say the exact name. Basically it's the top 1. Do a survey- look at Above the Law, Washingtonian, whatever. Tip top.
Oh, pathetic SAHM, trying to ride your husband's professional (and financial) coattails.
I am a SAHM and we made the decision together. Suck it.
Anonymous
02/22/2013 12:38
Subject: If your spouse was a big law counsel/senior associate & did not make partner the first time up, then
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The best situation I can equate to partnership voting is fraternity/sorority rush deliberations. If he has heard he has a good shot, then he'll probably make it. The money gets SO much better as a partner, but the work demands are intense.
It took DH about 5 years as partner/slave before the money really started on the uptick. But his firm's capital requirement is huge.
These are interesting statements concerning capital requirements and the money you earn once becoming partner. I heard once you are a partner your salary (or draw) is reduced by at least 25%, you must buy into the partnership via a low interest loan to fulfill your capital contribution requirement, but that you receive a percentage of the firm's profits either quarterly, semi-annually, or at the end of the year. I viewed an article a few months ago where newly crowned partners said they did not realize how much their total take-home pay would be reduced even with the profits distributions. The new partners says that noone wants to discuss this because people assume once you are partner you are raking in tons of money. Has anyone experienced this?