Honesty without compassion is not a virtue. And what you're talking about is not honesty, but biased, inflammatory rhetoric designed to hurt vulnerable people. If you want to have a conversation about the tone of discussions on internet boards, we can do that, but don't think for a minute that what you are doing is brave. It's deliberately harming people who are already hurting, and it means that you are a disgusting coward.

How is disagreeing with someone's choice that they made out of free will harming them?

We're not talking about mere disagreement and you know it. We're talking about (a) the choice to voice your disagreement when your opinion was not sought AND (b) the choice to do so using biased, inflammatory rhetoric designed to hurt and disgust. The Westboro Baptist folks "disagree" too, you know.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you can feel your baby move, have heard the heartbeat, and interact with it- but you still think it's a good idea to rip it apart by it's limbs, throw it on a table, and piece it back together; as opposed to letting things occur naturally...then there is something wrong with you.

Well, it kind of depends what you mean with "letting things occur naturally" if that means giving birth to a T18 child that will die within a few days after giving birth. Unlike some of the anti-abortion posters I will not go into too much graphic detail, but T18 is a very, very tragic syndrome.

It is not about "something is wrong with you". It is about making choices a parent has to make: what is in the best interest of the unborn child.

From reading your response, you would make another decision -- that is your right. But don't make it sound like it's an easy choice.

You cannot say that the child with T18 WILL die.

http://www.myspace.com/alyssascause
http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/briannabotts
http://www.littleclaire.com/
http://www.angelfire.com/pro/johnnys_journal/
http://www.caringbridge.org/mn/kayden/
http://www.caringbridge.org/mn/mieko/

And even if passing is imminent, I guess you are right. The mother has to make the choice if it's more humane and compassionate to rip the child apart, or to let them go naturally.

THIS is why these posts should be removed and this is why I'm leaving this thread. Trying to shame or hurt women by making a decision YOU are comfortable with is a horrible thing to do. Your evil preaching is disgusting to me and I don't want to be a part of this anymore. This should be a safe place for women to voice their opinions and ask for resources and compassion, not to be so disgustingly judged by someone like you.

Again, this is treating this subject with kid gloves. In no other thread here, in equally sensitive areas such as divorce, SN children, medical issues, other, do we evicerate people with diff points of view. Don't limit information on any topic. That's not the DCUM way. If you don't like it, fine, but you don't have to flounce out of here with a hair flip. Best of luck to you.

Honesty without compassion is not a virtue. And what you're talking about is not honesty, but biased, inflammatory rhetoric designed to hurt vulnerable people. If you want to have a conversation about the tone of discussions on internet boards, we can do that, but don't think for a minute that what you are doing is brave. It's deliberately harming people who are already hurting, and it means that you are a disgusting coward.

D&E is a brutal procedure on mother and child. The mother's cervix is forced open, and the child--who has a heartbeat, brain waves, dreams, swallows, sucks her thumb, swims, and recognizes her mother's voice--is dismembered without anesthesia. Then the skull is crushed with the same forceps used to rip off limbs. A doctor who performs these procedures frequently stated publicly that he feels the baby struggle to get away from his grip (see Everything Conceivable).

This is the truth. I could use medical terminology, but that would not change the truth.

The mother and her child deserve compassion and loving support. Death is a part of life. Dismemberment, however, is not, necessarily.

If a mother was surprised at a preterm birth with a T18 baby, no one here would say the doctor should cut the baby into pieces while still alive. Just because the same actions happen out of sight does not make them acceptable.

Alright, I am not exactly sure why I am wading into this except that I wanted to make a point to my fellow pro-lifers, which is that you aren't taking into consideration the emotional toll that it can take on a mother, other parent and older children to carry to term a child who has a very small chance of survival. Are you visibly pregnant right now? Think of how many times a day an acquitance or stranger asks you if you know what you are having, if you are excited, if you have the nursery ready? When your older children are with you, how frequently someone asks them if they are excited to be a big brother or sister? Now imagine that younhave a less than 5% chance of giving birth to a live baby and a much less than that chance of bringing a baby home. Could you do it? I wish I could say that I could, that i could allow my child to die in my arms, but I really, honestly could not. Maybe in a world where i coukd live i a cave and not see people and be reminded that I could miscarry my baby any day and that longing prayed for and awaited child is destined to die. And I don't think I could ask my 3 year old to do it either.

Anonymous wrote:
THIS is why these posts should be removed and this is why I'm leaving this thread. Trying to shame or hurt women by making a decision YOU are comfortable with is a horrible thing to do. Your evil preaching is disgusting to me and I don't want to be a part of this anymore. This should be a safe place for women to voice their opinions and ask for resources and compassion, not to be so disgustingly judged by someone like you.

Facts are nothing to be ashamed of or hurt by. Nor did I judge anyone. I presented facts- every child with T18 does not die so people really should stop saying "the child is just going to die in a day anyway", and if the child does pass- I agree, it's your choice to choose how that happens. You can decide which option is more compassionate. There is nothing judgmental about that. If you don't like that I pointed out how the procedure is done, I'm sorry, but you should know that anyway, so there is nothing evil about stating the obvious. Yes, I do feel compassion that you or someone else feels that this is the choice they have to make. That is why I am posting.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you can feel your baby move, have heard the heartbeat, and interact with it- but you still think it's a good idea to rip it apart by it's limbs, throw it on a table, and piece it back together; as opposed to letting things occur naturally...then there is something wrong with you.

Well, it kind of depends what you mean with "letting things occur naturally" if that means giving birth to a T18 child that will die within a few days after giving birth. Unlike some of the anti-abortion posters I will not go into too much graphic detail, but T18 is a very, very tragic syndrome.

It is not about "something is wrong with you". It is about making choices a parent has to make: what is in the best interest of the unborn child.

From reading your response, you would make another decision -- that is your right. But don't make it sound like it's an easy choice.

You cannot say that the child with T18 WILL die.

http://www.myspace.com/alyssascause
http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/briannabotts
http://www.littleclaire.com/
http://www.angelfire.com/pro/johnnys_journal/
http://www.caringbridge.org/mn/kayden/
http://www.caringbridge.org/mn/mieko/

And even if passing is imminent, I guess you are right. The mother has to make the choice if it's more humane and compassionate to rip the child apart, or to let them go naturally.

THIS is why these posts should be removed and this is why I'm leaving this thread. Trying to shame or hurt women by making a decision YOU are comfortable with is a horrible thing to do. Your evil preaching is disgusting to me and I don't want to be a part of this anymore. This should be a safe place for women to voice their opinions and ask for resources and compassion, not to be so disgustingly judged by someone like you.

Again, this is treating this subject with kid gloves. In no other thread here, in equally sensitive areas such as divorce, SN children, medical issues, other, do we evicerate people with diff points of view. Don't limit information on any topic. That's not the DCUM way. If you don't like it, fine, but you don't have to flounce out of here with a hair flip. Best of luck to you.

Honesty without compassion is not a virtue. And what you're talking about is not honesty, but biased, inflammatory rhetoric designed to hurt vulnerable people. If you want to have a conversation about the tone of discussions on internet boards, we can do that, but don't think for a minute that what you are doing is brave. It's deliberately harming people who are already hurting, and it means that you are a disgusting coward.

How is disagreeing with someone's choice that they made out of free will harming them?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you can feel your baby move, have heard the heartbeat, and interact with it- but you still think it's a good idea to rip it apart by it's limbs, throw it on a table, and piece it back together; as opposed to letting things occur naturally...then there is something wrong with you.

Well, it kind of depends what you mean with "letting things occur naturally" if that means giving birth to a T18 child that will die within a few days after giving birth. Unlike some of the anti-abortion posters I will not go into too much graphic detail, but T18 is a very, very tragic syndrome.

It is not about "something is wrong with you". It is about making choices a parent has to make: what is in the best interest of the unborn child.

From reading your response, you would make another decision -- that is your right. But don't make it sound like it's an easy choice.

You cannot say that the child with T18 WILL die.

http://www.myspace.com/alyssascause
http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/briannabotts
http://www.littleclaire.com/
http://www.angelfire.com/pro/johnnys_journal/
http://www.caringbridge.org/mn/kayden/
http://www.caringbridge.org/mn/mieko/

And even if passing is imminent, I guess you are right. The mother has to make the choice if it's more humane and compassionate to rip the child apart, or to let them go naturally.

THIS is why these posts should be removed and this is why I'm leaving this thread. Trying to shame or hurt women by making a decision YOU are comfortable with is a horrible thing to do. Your evil preaching is disgusting to me and I don't want to be a part of this anymore. This should be a safe place for women to voice their opinions and ask for resources and compassion, not to be so disgustingly judged by someone like you.

Again, this is treating this subject with kid gloves. In no other thread here, in equally sensitive areas such as divorce, SN children, medical issues, other, do we evicerate people with diff points of view. Don't limit information on any topic. That's not the DCUM way. If you don't like it, fine, but you don't have to flounce out of here with a hair flip. Best of luck to you.

And yet this is exactly what you are doing. And no, SN, divorce, etc, none of these subjects are as sensitive and painful as losing a baby. And yes, leaving this thread is the best to be done. If the "DCUM way" is this psychologically abusive, than I'm definitely better off without it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you can feel your baby move, have heard the heartbeat, and interact with it- but you still think it's a good idea to rip it apart by it's limbs, throw it on a table, and piece it back together; as opposed to letting things occur naturally...then there is something wrong with you.

Well, it kind of depends what you mean with "letting things occur naturally" if that means giving birth to a T18 child that will die within a few days after giving birth. Unlike some of the anti-abortion posters I will not go into too much graphic detail, but T18 is a very, very tragic syndrome.

It is not about "something is wrong with you". It is about making choices a parent has to make: what is in the best interest of the unborn child.

From reading your response, you would make another decision -- that is your right. But don't make it sound like it's an easy choice.

You cannot say that the child with T18 WILL die.

http://www.myspace.com/alyssascause
http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/briannabotts
http://www.littleclaire.com/
http://www.angelfire.com/pro/johnnys_journal/
http://www.caringbridge.org/mn/kayden/
http://www.caringbridge.org/mn/mieko/

And even if passing is imminent, I guess you are right. The mother has to make the choice if it's more humane and compassionate to rip the child apart, or to let them go naturally.

THIS is why these posts should be removed and this is why I'm leaving this thread. Trying to shame or hurt women by making a decision YOU are comfortable with is a horrible thing to do. Your evil preaching is disgusting to me and I don't want to be a part of this anymore. This should be a safe place for women to voice their opinions and ask for resources and compassion, not to be so disgustingly judged by someone like you.

Again, this is treating this subject with kid gloves. In no other thread here, in equally sensitive areas such as divorce, SN children, medical issues, other, do we evicerate people with diff points of view. Don't limit information on any topic. That's not the DCUM way. If you don't like it, fine, but you don't have to flounce out of here with a hair flip. Best of luck to you.

Honesty without compassion is not a virtue. And what you're talking about is not honesty, but biased, inflammatory rhetoric designed to hurt vulnerable people. If you want to have a conversation about the tone of discussions on internet boards, we can do that, but don't think for a minute that what you are doing is brave. It's deliberately harming people who are already hurting, and it means that you are a disgusting coward.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you can feel your baby move, have heard the heartbeat, and interact with it- but you still think it's a good idea to rip it apart by it's limbs, throw it on a table, and piece it back together; as opposed to letting things occur naturally...then there is something wrong with you.

Well, it kind of depends what you mean with "letting things occur naturally" if that means giving birth to a T18 child that will die within a few days after giving birth. Unlike some of the anti-abortion posters I will not go into too much graphic detail, but T18 is a very, very tragic syndrome.

It is not about "something is wrong with you". It is about making choices a parent has to make: what is in the best interest of the unborn child.

From reading your response, you would make another decision -- that is your right. But don't make it sound like it's an easy choice.

You cannot say that the child with T18 WILL die.

http://www.myspace.com/alyssascause
http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/briannabotts
http://www.littleclaire.com/
http://www.angelfire.com/pro/johnnys_journal/
http://www.caringbridge.org/mn/kayden/
http://www.caringbridge.org/mn/mieko/

And even if passing is imminent, I guess you are right. The mother has to make the choice if it's more humane and compassionate to rip the child apart, or to let them go naturally.

THIS is why these posts should be removed and this is why I'm leaving this thread. Trying to shame or hurt women by making a decision YOU are comfortable with is a horrible thing to do. Your evil preaching is disgusting to me and I don't want to be a part of this anymore. This should be a safe place for women to voice their opinions and ask for resources and compassion, not to be so disgustingly judged by someone like you.

Again, this is treating this subject with kid gloves. In no other thread here, in equally sensitive areas such as divorce, SN children, medical issues, other, do we evicerate people with diff points of view. Don't limit information on any topic. That's not the DCUM way. If you don't like it, fine, but you don't have to flounce out of here with a hair flip. Best of luck to you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you can feel your baby move, have heard the heartbeat, and interact with it- but you still think it's a good idea to rip it apart by it's limbs, throw it on a table, and piece it back together; as opposed to letting things occur naturally...then there is something wrong with you.

Well, it kind of depends what you mean with "letting things occur naturally" if that means giving birth to a T18 child that will die within a few days after giving birth. Unlike some of the anti-abortion posters I will not go into too much graphic detail, but T18 is a very, very tragic syndrome.

It is not about "something is wrong with you". It is about making choices a parent has to make: what is in the best interest of the unborn child.

From reading your response, you would make another decision -- that is your right. But don't make it sound like it's an easy choice.

You cannot say that the child with T18 WILL die.

http://www.myspace.com/alyssascause
http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/briannabotts
http://www.littleclaire.com/
http://www.angelfire.com/pro/johnnys_journal/
http://www.caringbridge.org/mn/kayden/
http://www.caringbridge.org/mn/mieko/

And even if passing is imminent, I guess you are right. The mother has to make the choice if it's more humane and compassionate to rip the child apart, or to let them go naturally.

THIS is why these posts should be removed and this is why I'm leaving this thread. Trying to shame or hurt women by making a decision YOU are comfortable with is a horrible thing to do. Your evil preaching is disgusting to me and I don't want to be a part of this anymore. This should be a safe place for women to voice their opinions and ask for resources and compassion, not to be so disgustingly judged by someone like you.

Anonymous wrote:And even if passing is imminent, I guess you are right. The mother has to make the choice if it's more humane and compassionate to rip the child apart, or to let them go naturally.

Which, again, shows that this is a very difficult choice. According to Wikipedia: "One percent of children live to age 10, typically in less severe cases of the mosaic Edwards syndrome." and "It is impossible to predict an exact prognosis during pregnancy or the neonatal period."

Some people believe that "live" is ALWAYS better, and it seems like you are in that category. Me, I am not so sure -- there is suffering that is so severe, so end-less, that death can be the compassionate option.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You can't speak for all people of a certain viewpoint. I consider my 22 week old fetus to be a baby - he moves around, has had a strong heartbeat for 16 weeks now, and even responds when I press on him with his own pusch back. But I also understand that some babies are very sick and their mothers believe it is in both of their best interests to terminate the life sooner rather than after a full term of pregnancy. It is a tough decision that I pray I never have to make. Abortion is not so black and white.

If you can feel your baby move, have heard the heartbeat, and interact with it- but you still think it's a good idea to rip it apart by it's limbs, throw it on a table, and piece it back together; as opposed to letting things occur naturally...then there is something wrong with you. If it's not a baby, and there is no bonding, etc- then okay. I could see how you would just discard it and move on. Not that I think it is right, but that makes more sense. The first viewpoint would make me question your sanity.

I'm not the poster you quoted, but I've been questioning your sanity since you started posting.

Seriously. And while we're questioning people's sanity, I'd be concerned about the mental health of someone who would demonize women who choose not to go through months of agony carrying a fetus that has no hope of survival beyond a few hours of pain.

See the above post from 13:19.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You can't speak for all people of a certain viewpoint. I consider my 22 week old fetus to be a baby - he moves around, has had a strong heartbeat for 16 weeks now, and even responds when I press on him with his own pusch back. But I also understand that some babies are very sick and their mothers believe it is in both of their best interests to terminate the life sooner rather than after a full term of pregnancy. It is a tough decision that I pray I never have to make. Abortion is not so black and white.

If you can feel your baby move, have heard the heartbeat, and interact with it- but you still think it's a good idea to rip it apart by it's limbs, throw it on a table, and piece it back together; as opposed to letting things occur naturally...then there is something wrong with you. If it's not a baby, and there is no bonding, etc- then okay. I could see how you would just discard it and move on. Not that I think it is right, but that makes more sense. The first viewpoint would make me question your sanity.

I'm not the poster you quoted, but I've been questioning your sanity since you started posting.

Seriously. And while we're questioning people's sanity, I'd be concerned about the mental health of someone who would demonize women who choose not to go through months of agony carrying a fetus that has no hope of survival beyond a few hours of pain.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you can feel your baby move, have heard the heartbeat, and interact with it- but you still think it's a good idea to rip it apart by it's limbs, throw it on a table, and piece it back together; as opposed to letting things occur naturally...then there is something wrong with you.

Well, it kind of depends what you mean with "letting things occur naturally" if that means giving birth to a T18 child that will die within a few days after giving birth. Unlike some of the anti-abortion posters I will not go into too much graphic detail, but T18 is a very, very tragic syndrome.

It is not about "something is wrong with you". It is about making choices a parent has to make: what is in the best interest of the unborn child.

From reading your response, you would make another decision -- that is your right. But don't make it sound like it's an easy choice.

You cannot say that the child with T18 WILL die.

http://www.myspace.com/alyssascause
http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/briannabotts
http://www.littleclaire.com/
http://www.angelfire.com/pro/johnnys_journal/
http://www.caringbridge.org/mn/kayden/
http://www.caringbridge.org/mn/mieko/

And even if passing is imminent, I guess you are right. The mother has to make the choice if it's more humane and compassionate to rip the child apart, or to let them go naturally.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I am not the PP above to whom you are responding, but I quetion the sanity of any woman who would do the above, and not let things progress naturally.

Right, because everyone should handle a horrifying, difficult situation exactly the way you would. OMG. Why hadn't I thought of that before?

YOu could say the same thing to your response to the PP whose sanity you questioned.

i think we need to just ignore the posts. do not feed the piranhas.