Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is race being brought into sexuality? Why can't these be separated?

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

+1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Why do they need to be?

You seriously have to ask this?

If we're talking about Jewish people, should we bring up the disabled?

Sure, if there are parallels that we can all learn from. Why not?

Not PP but I think it takes away from the original fight. For instance, there are LGBT people who do not believe racism is still alive or active today. Then the LGBT minorities begin to argue against racism and racial discrimination because of their experiences. The other side says the minorities are playing the race card and no one agrees. When people are fighting for two causes, one will take a backseat to another. You start to dedicate more time to one than the other, people start to question which is more important to them.

jsteele wrote:
Perhaps I am not understanding you, or perhaps you did not understand me. But, where did I "dismiss the sentiments and opinions expressed in this discussion"? I replied to one specific message which I quoted. Can you honestly read that quote -- which is still included above -- and not see that the poster is engaging in Oppression Olympics? Far from dismissing sentiments and opinions expressed in this discussion, my post makes a point that is very similar to points made in a number of other posts. Why would I hate that you agree with me that racism and homophobia have the same root causes, but different histories? I mentioned the different histories myself in an earlier post. Why would I hate your reinforcement of the same point I made?

I am baffled why you and I can be in near total agreement, but you find me insulting?

I took your dislike of the "Victimization Olympics" to not only apply to the PP you quoted, but also to those of whom you spoke in your post at 12:00, when you said "But, there is probably more in common then many posters seem to realize."

My point is that even those who are aware of the horrible, extreme anti-gay violence and hatred such as that you detailed in your post at 12:00 can still dislike the equation of the American Civil Rights Movement with the gay rights movement. Yes, there are similarities. My discomfort with it comes from how dismissive many are of the nuances of both movements. I'm not sure I can articulate it, but 11:42's post demonstrates why it can be hurtful to me and others from my culture.

S/he said "I do not understand how denying gay people the same rights as straight people under the eyes of the law is any different than denying African American the same rights as white people under the eyes of the law. "

The thing is, there are differences. And I'm not interested in playing the Oppression Olympics, but there is a difference. So many people have gone beyond simply making comparisons (which are valid) to equating the two and saying it's the same thing.

Anonymous wrote:Please don't equate opposition to gay marriage, which until a few short years ago would have been considered an extremely radical social concept, with "gay bashing" and, uh, "gaytred." While I agree that society is moving in that direction, most people aren't there yet, so don't vilify legislators who vote against this agenda. Frankly, because this effects such fundamental social change, it should be put on the ballot as in New Jersey.

By the way, I don't hear a lot of gay marriage advocates supporting the re-legalization of polygamy, but conceptually there's not a principled distinction between the two. They are both alternative forms of social relationships, that go beyond the traditional man-woman marriage construct.

Yoo-hoo! Hi! Over here! I have no problem with the legalization of polygamous marriage!

And can you please explain how opposition to gay marriage isn't gay bashing? Giving women the vote was "fundamental social change" -- is there any way that people who were against suffrage weren't anti-women?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is race being brought into sexuality? Why can't these be separated?

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

+1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Why do they need to be?

You seriously have to ask this?

If we're talking about Jewish people, should we bring up the disabled?

Sure, if there are parallels that we can all learn from. Why not?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please don't equate opposition to gay marriage, which until a few short years ago would have been considered an extremely radical social concept, with "gay bashing" and, uh, "gaytred." While I agree that society is moving in that direction, most people aren't there yet, so don't vilify legislators who vote against this agenda. Frankly, because this effects such fundamental social change, it should be put on the ballot as in New Jersey.

By the way, I don't hear a lot of gay marriage advocates supporting the re-legalization of polygamy, but conceptually there's not a principled distinction between the two. They are both alternative forms of social relationships, that go beyond the traditional man-woman marriage construct.

Just because something is "traditional" doesn't make it "correct." It's that kind of thinking that got us into this mess to begin with. And I'm sorry, I'm not gay but I find it off-putting that I would get to vote on whether gay people should be allowed to get married. Why do I get a say in that?? If I'm gay, I'm not all that in favor of putting my love-life up to someone else's vote.

This is my point exactly!. 14:03, why do you get to vote on the life choices of another EQUAL human being? Are gay people minors or sub-human? Why do YOU get to be the one to lay down the laws by which they should live?

Anonymous wrote:Please don't equate opposition to gay marriage, which until a few short years ago would have been considered an extremely radical social concept, with "gay bashing" and, uh, "gaytred." While I agree that society is moving in that direction, most people aren't there yet, so don't vilify legislators who vote against this agenda. Frankly, because this effects such fundamental social change, it should be put on the ballot as in New Jersey.

By the way, I don't hear a lot of gay marriage advocates supporting the re-legalization of polygamy, but conceptually there's not a principled distinction between the two. They are both alternative forms of social relationships, that go beyond the traditional man-woman marriage construct.

Just because something is "traditional" doesn't make it "correct." It's that kind of thinking that got us into this mess to begin with. And I'm sorry, I'm not gay but I find it off-putting that I would get to vote on whether gay people should be allowed to get married. Why do I get a say in that?? If I'm gay, I'm not all that in favor of putting my love-life up to someone else's vote.

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Is this to excuse the murders during the civil rights era? Prior to the civil rights area? The KKK? I do not see how one movement is greater based on what you are saying.

Nobody said anything about excusing. I really hate the "Victimization Olympics" in which some like to engage. Pointing out comparisons is just pointing out comparisons. Nothing more.

If a 19 year old gay black male walks into a store, the store owner may regard him with suspicion not accorded to a 19 year old gay white male. That is discrimination based on race. If the same 19 year old gay black male is jumped leaving a gay bar, that is discrimination based on sexual orientation. I am not sure that this hypothetical person cares which type of discrimination is worse. He would probably just hate being discriminated against.

Well, Boss, I'se sorry you'se hates that while I agree that racism and homophobia have the same root causes, the history of the two in this nation are different. Is one worse? I don't think it's helpful to engage in the Oppression Olympics, but I haven't seen much evidence of that in this thread. It is insulting for you to dismiss the sentiments and opinions expressed in this discussion as an example of people playing the Oppression Olympics.

Perhaps I am not understanding you, or perhaps you did not understand me. But, where did I "dismiss the sentiments and opinions expressed in this discussion"? I replied to one specific message which I quoted. Can you honestly read that quote -- which is still included above -- and not see that the poster is engaging in Oppression Olympics? Far from dismissing sentiments and opinions expressed in this discussion, my post makes a point that is very similar to points made in a number of other posts. Why would I hate that you agree with me that racism and homophobia have the same root causes, but different histories? I mentioned the different histories myself in an earlier post. Why would I hate your reinforcement of the same point I made?

I am baffled why you and I can be in near total agreement, but you find me insulting?

Please don't equate opposition to gay marriage, which until a few short years ago would have been considered an extremely radical social concept, with "gay bashing" and, uh, "gaytred." While I agree that society is moving in that direction, most people aren't there yet, so don't vilify legislators who vote against this agenda. Frankly, because this effects such fundamental social change, it should be put on the ballot as in New Jersey.

By the way, I don't hear a lot of gay marriage advocates supporting the re-legalization of polygamy, but conceptually there's not a principled distinction between the two. They are both alternative forms of social relationships, that go beyond the traditional man-woman marriage construct.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No it is just someone trolling with an agenda. I actually think is someone who is pro-Gay rights stirring the pot to make the other side look like idiots.

By giving them the opportunity to talk?

It's not that hard to make them look like idiots. They do it all on their own most of the time.

Anonymous wrote:No it is just someone trolling with an agenda. I actually think is someone who is pro-Gay rights stirring the pot to make the other side look like idiots.

By giving them the opportunity to talk?

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Is this to excuse the murders during the civil rights era? Prior to the civil rights area? The KKK? I do not see how one movement is greater based on what you are saying.

Nobody said anything about excusing. I really hate the "Victimization Olympics" in which some like to engage. Pointing out comparisons is just pointing out comparisons. Nothing more.

If a 19 year old gay black male walks into a store, the store owner may regard him with suspicion not accorded to a 19 year old gay white male. That is discrimination based on race. If the same 19 year old gay black male is jumped leaving a gay bar, that is discrimination based on sexual orientation. I am not sure that this hypothetical person cares which type of discrimination is worse. He would probably just hate being discriminated against.

Well, Boss, I'se sorry you'se hates that while I agree that racism and homophobia have the same root causes, the history of the two in this nation are different. Is one worse? I don't think it's helpful to engage in the Oppression Olympics, but I haven't seen much evidence of that in this thread. It is insulting for you to dismiss the sentiments and opinions expressed in this discussion as an example of people playing the Oppression Olympics.

Who says that you cannot be both lgbt and racist? Or lgbt and hold racial prejudice(s) towards minorities? Are the lgbt couples that don't support interracial lgbt relationships homophobic? No.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I suspect there is an issue of "my struggle is bigger than your struggle" going on here, especially when people are adamant about separating gay and race issues.

No, it's more a matter of "The struggles of Blacks in this country date back HUNDREDS of years. Blacks were disciminated against up until the 1960's....and still experience discrimination today. Blacks were enslaved for hundreds of years, raped, separated from family, treated as property, whipped, beaten, lynched, murdered, maimed, and made to feel less than for HUNDREDS of years".

To then turn around and equate this with gays' right to marriage is a HUGE insult.

If the gay rights struggle/movement is an important issue, there is NO NEED to latch onto the Blacks Civil Rights Movement. Does this indicate that without it, the argument is very weak?

This is exactly it. I am 100% in support of equal rights for LGBT people. But I think the fight for gay rights has enough merit on its own that you don't have to diminish both causes by trying to push it as the "new American Civil Rights Movement."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I suspect there is an issue of "my struggle is bigger than your struggle" going on here, especially when people are adamant about separating gay and race issues.

Nope. I'm adamant about separating the issues not because I think "my struggle is bigger than your struggle" (especially since I belong to both groups), but because they are not the same thing.

+1 You can be gay and be fighting for equal marriage but also be a minority (Asian lesbian, Black gay man, etc...) and fighting against racial discrimination. It is more than just equal marriage that minority glbt people are fighting for.

Anonymous wrote:Anyone who bristles when the gay rights movement is compared to the civil rights movement is homophobic, pure and simple.

And if you bristle at being called homophobic, then reconsider why you have so much trouble accepting gay rights.

Are you truly aware of what homophobia is? There are black (and white, and Asian, and so on) LGBT people who are (obviously) pro-gay marriage but anti- equating the fight for gay rights with the Civil Rights Movement. Are we homophobic as well?