Anonymous
Post 02/16/2012 08:31     Subject: Re:DON'T answer the question, but Why is the SAHM and WOH issue so touchy?
"I'm not saying all children of divorce are in this predicament, simply that kids are just expected to adapt and deal with whatever their parents decide while we, as parents, tell ourselves that they are doing just fine. "

I must say that this is simply the way it is. No one today argues that unhappily married people should stay together for the sake of the children. It's the same with some other major parenting choices - I'm sure my kids would prefer being able to be with a parent at all times that they are not in school, but DH and I prefer to work. I truly believe it's okay and/or inevitable that it's the parents' right to choose, ultimately, even if the kids would prefer a different choice.
Anonymous
Post 02/16/2012 08:28     Subject: DON'T answer the question, but Why is the SAHM and WOH issue so touchy?
Everyone wants to feel that they are doing the right thing. And they will propagate their beliefs and force them on others just to make themselves feel righteous for the choice they made.

To each their own. Who really fucking cares anyway?
Anonymous
Post 02/16/2012 08:26     Subject: Re:DON'T answer the question, but Why is the SAHM and WOH issue so touchy?
" I mean, I know that I am in the camp of a SAHM who had an abusive childhood and is determined to offer something entirely different to my child coupled with having strong preferences for non-conventional parenting (lots of nature, no TV, organic, extended breastfeeding, etc.). I see my choice as offering a particular family set-up to my child because it's important to me at this moment in my life, but that doesn't extend to thinking other people are making a wrong choice..."

Beautiful. I can completely appreciate where you are coming from. I had a truly blissful childhood with a mom who loved SAH until all her kids were older and then was sorry she didn't have a career to fall back on. She encouraged me to combine work that is meaningful to me with mothering. And lol, I'm about the most conventional parent there is So even though we have had different life experiences, and are living very different lives, I feel absolutely no need to comment negatively on your choices. My youngest is 8, so not much of what you mention would affect our family life at this stage anyway. Enjoy!
Anonymous
Post 02/16/2012 08:02     Subject: DON'T answer the question, but Why is the SAHM and WOH issue so touchy?
The only correction to the nanny's post I could possibly make is that when a kid actually shows up, the best laid plans can blow up.

Remember, folks, guys don't really get a choice (see the various threads about SAHD's who're treated radioactively.)
Anonymous
Post 02/16/2012 07:51     Subject: DON'T answer the question, but Why is the SAHM and WOH issue so touchy?
Anonymous wrote:I am a nanny, with no kids of my own yet, so let me comment as someone who has no stake in this.

I think there are a few different reasons for this fight. While I think that the stereotype ("You are ragging on SAHMs/WOHMs because you are so insecure about your choice to WOH/SAH!") is true for a segment of the population, I think there are two other categories to consider.

First are the moms who would openly prefer to make a different choice, but it isn't possible. These women are sometimes peacekeepers as they recognize the difficulties in life, but just as often they respond to circumstances by being particularly nasty and vicious. Think of the SAHM who had to give up a career she loved because her SN child needed so much attention from her. Think of the WOHM who would quit tomorrow if they weren't so deep in debt.

Last there are the women who truly do think all the nasty things, not because they are bitches, but because their circumstances in life leave them strongly biased against one choice or another.

Think of the woman who's SAHM was abusive or severely depressed. Think of the mom who finds children (even her own, who she loves) to be absolutely miserable and draining, or who suffered through dreadful PPD during maternity leave. Think of the woman who truly believes that one-year-olds NEED to be socialized and taught to listen to a teacher so that they will have a leg up on kindergarten. These women have had experiences in life that lead them to draw these conclusions, and they truly believe that SAHMs must have something "wrong" with them, and that staying home to raise kids is "bad" for those children.

OTOH, think of the SAHM who waited until 40 to conceive, but wanted 4 kids, and now wants to cherish EVERY MOMENT with her kid, to make up for her grief about not being able to have more. Think of the mom who's working mother left her in a hell-hole daycare that neglected her as a child. Think of the mom who views children and family as her most important role in life (not just one important role, as every mother believes, but THE most important) and is terrified to fail. Think of the mom who has strong views about atypical parenting (whole foods, cloth diapering, free range kids, nap-protecting) and knows that she would have to choose between these values and working because it is so difficult to find affordable childcare that would allow for any of these. For varying reasons, these women truly believe that WOHMs are making the "wrong" choice and that what they are doing is "bad" for their children.

I believe that most moms (even those in the insecure-about-my-choices category) have some of these feelings. I plan to go back to work when my kids are young by splitting the schedule with DH and/or looking for jobs that allow me to bring my kid. That said, I also truly believe that daycare is not ideal for kids under 2 or 3, because I put a premium on sleep, nutrition and bonding-with-caregivers. So when there is a thread on here assuring a new WOHM that it's "not a big deal" if her 6-month-old only naps 1 1/2 hours at daycare, my gut response is that these women are deluding themselves into believing that this is okay, when in reality, they are just prioritizing different things--socialization, exposure to diversity, etc. over a good nap schedule. I say this not to judge, but to give an example of how our subconcious assumptions cause us to judge.



This is a great post.
Anonymous
Post 02/16/2012 07:44     Subject: DON'T answer the question, but Why is the SAHM and WOH issue so touchy?
Anonymous wrote:We hover and buzz around our children so much that we forget that they are the most resilient beings on earth. No matter what decision you make, WOH or SAHM, breastfeed or formula, they will adjust and adapt just fine.


That's what we'd like to believe but I think that our decisions do affect our children, sometimes negative. Of course they adapt and carry on but sometimes it's because they simply have no choice. We don't exactly ask their opinion before we take our decisions. We just assume that they'll be fine. I'll never forget listening to a young lady grieve over her parents' divorce. She was in so much pain and I remember her saying that no one included her in the decision to break up her family. It was just done to her. Putting her in therapy only served to further alienate her because her parents thought that by doing that they were helping her so she just smiled to please her parents and carried on. She had carried such pain and confusion with her through to her adult years yet, on the face of it, she appeared happy and successful. she however had severe anxiety, depression, attachment and other issues that she believed stemmed from what she saw as a traumatic childhood that disenfranchised her from both households as both parents took on new partners and families and she shuttled between the two trying the please her parents.
I'm not saying all children of divorce are in this predicament, simply that kids are just expected to adapt and deal with whatever their parents decide while we, as parents, tell ourselves that they are doing just fine.
Anonymous
Post 02/16/2012 01:01     Subject: DON'T answer the question, but Why is the SAHM and WOH issue so touchy?
Well, I think it comes down to people feeling that the value of their own choice/non-choice/imposed situation is threatened by people who choose or live the counterfactual.

I chose blue drapes over white; you chose white over blue. Therefore, you must think my choice sucks and you hate my blue drapes. It then follows that I must hate your white drapes and everything about you. And now, because I've been such an ass about defending how awesome my blue drapes are (when you never even said you hated by blue drapes in the first place) and how sucky white drapes are, that now you hate my blue drapes and everything about me. Etc.

That, and as an anonymous person on the internet, it's fun to get all bent out of shape about stupid stuff.


Anonymous
Post 02/15/2012 22:58     Subject: DON'T answer the question, but Why is the SAHM and WOH issue so touchy?
Anonymous wrote:
I agree that people have these feelings, but I always get hung up on the part about how people leap to infer that the opposite choice is "wrong." I guess most people are not that self-aware. I mean, I know that I am in the camp of a SAHM who had an abusive childhood and is determined to offer something entirely different to my child coupled with having strong preferences for non-conventional parenting (lots of nature, no TV, organic, extended breastfeeding, etc.). I see my choice as offering a particular family set-up to my child because it's important to me at this moment in my life, but that doesn't extend to thinking other people are making a wrong choice (except maybe people who stay up until the middle of the night felting party favors for their 2 year old's birthday party ). Seriously, though, it's not automatic that having strong opinions about your own family leads to a judgment of others, but people seem to all too frequently infer that judgment. I know people aren't like me (thank goodness, given all the experiences that went into shaping who I am and why I feel strongly about some of these things), so why would the specific arrangement that works for me also work for them?


I'm the PP you quoted, and I certainly don't mean to imply that anyone with strong opinions is going to be judgmental. For starters, it sounds like you are missing a key piece of what I'm describing, in that you don't seem to believe that your choices are "the right way to raise a child" merely that they are right for you and your child. But my real point is that sometimes people paint any judgmental mom as a bitch, but we all make judgments. If you saw a mom beating her child with a stick, or ignoring them next to heavy traffic, or any other dangerous parenting choice, you make a judgement, and you may even choose to comment your disapproval. There's no real difference between that and a mom who believes that daycares are all dens of neglect and abuse tsk-ing at working mothers. We all want the best for our kids, but we also want the best for kids in general.
Anonymous
Post 02/15/2012 22:44     Subject: DON'T answer the question, but Why is the SAHM and WOH issue so touchy?
Anonymous wrote:I am a nanny, with no kids of my own yet, so let me comment as someone who has no stake in this.

I think there are a few different reasons for this fight. While I think that the stereotype ("You are ragging on SAHMs/WOHMs because you are so insecure about your choice to WOH/SAH!") is true for a segment of the population, I think there are two other categories to consider.

First are the moms who would openly prefer to make a different choice, but it isn't possible. These women are sometimes peacekeepers as they recognize the difficulties in life, but just as often they respond to circumstances by being particularly nasty and vicious. Think of the SAHM who had to give up a career she loved because her SN child needed so much attention from her. Think of the WOHM who would quit tomorrow if they weren't so deep in debt.

Last there are the women who truly do think all the nasty things, not because they are bitches, but because their circumstances in life leave them strongly biased against one choice or another.

Think of the woman who's SAHM was abusive or severely depressed. Think of the mom who finds children (even her own, who she loves) to be absolutely miserable and draining, or who suffered through dreadful PPD during maternity leave. Think of the woman who truly believes that one-year-olds NEED to be socialized and taught to listen to a teacher so that they will have a leg up on kindergarten. These women have had experiences in life that lead them to draw these conclusions, and they truly believe that SAHMs must have something "wrong" with them, and that staying home to raise kids is "bad" for those children.

OTOH, think of the SAHM who waited until 40 to conceive, but wanted 4 kids, and now wants to cherish EVERY MOMENT with her kid, to make up for her grief about not being able to have more. Think of the mom who's working mother left her in a hell-hole daycare that neglected her as a child. Think of the mom who views children and family as her most important role in life (not just one important role, as every mother believes, but THE most important) and is terrified to fail. Think of the mom who has strong views about atypical parenting (whole foods, cloth diapering, free range kids, nap-protecting) and knows that she would have to choose between these values and working because it is so difficult to find affordable childcare that would allow for any of these. For varying reasons, these women truly believe that WOHMs are making the "wrong" choice and that what they are doing is "bad" for their children.

I believe that most moms (even those in the insecure-about-my-choices category) have some of these feelings. I plan to go back to work when my kids are young by splitting the schedule with DH and/or looking for jobs that allow me to bring my kid. That said, I also truly believe that daycare is not ideal for kids under 2 or 3, because I put a premium on sleep, nutrition and bonding-with-caregivers. So when there is a thread on here assuring a new WOHM that it's "not a big deal" if her 6-month-old only naps 1 1/2 hours at daycare, my gut response is that these women are deluding themselves into believing that this is okay, when in reality, they are just prioritizing different things--socialization, exposure to diversity, etc. over a good nap schedule. I say this not to judge, but to give an example of how our subconcious assumptions cause us to judge.


I agree that people have these feelings, but I always get hung up on the part about how people leap to infer that the opposite choice is "wrong." I guess most people are not that self-aware. I mean, I know that I am in the camp of a SAHM who had an abusive childhood and is determined to offer something entirely different to my child coupled with having strong preferences for non-conventional parenting (lots of nature, no TV, organic, extended breastfeeding, etc.). I see my choice as offering a particular family set-up to my child because it's important to me at this moment in my life, but that doesn't extend to thinking other people are making a wrong choice (except maybe people who stay up until the middle of the night felting party favors for their 2 year old's birthday party ). Seriously, though, it's not automatic that having strong opinions about your own family leads to a judgment of others, but people seem to all too frequently infer that judgment. I know people aren't like me (thank goodness, given all the experiences that went into shaping who I am and why I feel strongly about some of these things), so why would the specific arrangement that works for me also work for them?
Anonymous
Post 02/15/2012 22:25     Subject: DON'T answer the question, but Why is the SAHM and WOH issue so touchy?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:If someone has an opinion about my working/non-working status, I honestly don't give a fuck. Why? Because I've been parenting for 10+ years. Is it because I'm more confident in my ability to parent or that I simply don't have the time and energy to spent on it? Again, I don't give a fuck. I've found that parents are more likely to give props, instead of criticism, at this stage.


Yes. By the time our youngest children are 10, we are all a bit weary.


And by the time your oldest is in college you say "wow, I guess I did some things right... or maybe I didn't and my kid thrived anyway." In either case you're golden.
Anonymous
Post 02/15/2012 22:17     Subject: Re:DON'T answer the question, but Why is the SAHM and WOH issue so touchy?
I know when it has come up in real life, it makes me really mad. And yes, it does come up in real life. The twain don't really mix until elementary school. So all of you who are sitting around doe eyed wondering how this could ever come up in real life since it has never happened to you at the park or at daycare drop off, it's real, it does happen and it happens every day. It is pretty easy to avoid each other before elementary school that's why you don't see it.
Anonymous
Post 02/15/2012 22:10     Subject: DON'T answer the question, but Why is the SAHM and WOH issue so touchy?
Anonymous wrote:If someone has an opinion about my working/non-working status, I honestly don't give a fuck. Why? Because I've been parenting for 10+ years. Is it because I'm more confident in my ability to parent or that I simply don't have the time and energy to spent on it? Again, I don't give a fuck. I've found that parents are more likely to give props, instead of criticism, at this stage.


Yes. By the time our youngest children are 10, we are all a bit weary.
Anonymous
Post 02/15/2012 21:56     Subject: Re:DON'T answer the question, but Why is the SAHM and WOH issue so touchy?
I WAH and am happy with my decision to send DS to daycare. Yet, I still get really angry when someone on here makes a comment like "you're not raising your kids." It just really strikes a nerve, even though no part of me wishes I could SAH or thinks it's best for my son (based on my temperament). So, I'm not sure why I get so upset. ...


I feel the same way when someone accuses me of "letting a stranger raise my child" - it puts me on the defensive before the conversation even gets started.

I honestly admire SAHMs b/c I don't feel remotely capable to do what they do. But I try as best I can and am lucky to have an extremely social kid who adores going to see his friends and teachers everyday.

I also admit that for me it was never a choice to not work, therefore I worry less over it. Simply not an option, not on the table.
Anonymous
Post 02/15/2012 21:53     Subject: Re:DON'T answer the question, but Why is the SAHM and WOH issue so touchy?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Because both bitches are jealous of me- WAH mom !


Me too, baby. They don't know how to categorize us. We see school kids as much as sahms and pull a paycheck like wohm. Hard to find fault with that.


Do you get to dress up, see your coworkers, flirt? Nah.


I work for the Feds. There isn't anyone at my office that I'd want to flirt with!
Anonymous
Post 02/15/2012 21:49     Subject: DON'T answer the question, but Why is the SAHM and WOH issue so touchy?
If someone has an opinion about my working/non-working status, I honestly don't give a fuck. Why? Because I've been parenting for 10+ years. Is it because I'm more confident in my ability to parent or that I simply don't have the time and energy to spent on it? Again, I don't give a fuck. I've found that parents are more likely to give props, instead of criticism, at this stage.