Anonymous wrote:

I can testify to this as well. It's like a 32 kid ADHD festival most days

Indeed it is!

Ha ha, yes, that's true (particularly with the boys )!

But, it's great that these kids are getting the kind of education they really need. In another school district, these are exactly the kids that would fall through the cracks and maybe miss out on fulfilling their potential. So, I really didn't mind all the ADHD kids in my child's AAP class, because I knew they really needed the AAP program.

I seriously doubt people go around advertising that their kids file didn't even make it to the central committee. These files are probably the ones where the kid had 75th percentile scores and S-G report cards, but the parents referred them anyway. The committee would probably see that the kid is going to get a 4 on the GBRS and decide to save the central committee the trouble.

I can testify to this as well. It's like a 32 kid ADHD festival most days

Indeed it is!

And you may wish to refer your pretentious self to page 7 of the 2011-2012 FCPS AAP Parent Information Packet...

Local School Screening Committee:
The local school screening committee consists of at least three of the following: a teacher who works with the student, the advanced academic resource teacher, an administrator, English for Speakers of Other Languages (ESOL) teacher, and other specialists as needed. The local school committee completes the Gifted Behaviors Rating Scale with Commentary and prepares screening files for all second grade pool candidates, as well as referrals. Parents or guardians are notified if the local school screening committee does not refer the student to the central selection committee. If parents or guardians appeal the decision of the local screening committee, the file is forwarded for central selection committee review.

As a practical matter, does this ever happen? I have never heard of a teacher, principal & AART deciding NOT to forward files to the central selection committee. And what is the "appeal" process in this situation? They tell you they aren't sending it to the central selection committee, and you say, "oh, yes you are" and then they send it? That's what it sounds like to me.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I will go one step further. Yes, I want my snowflake in AAP. Badly. I will spend the bucks on WISC, endure the headaches of compiling outstanding work samples, and will grovel for letters of recommendation. I will do whatever I can to get him into the program (my daughter is in, via appeal, and here comes your favorite phrase for ridicule, she's thriving). Why do I want this so bad? Because hands down, it's a better education, with a more disciplined set of peers. If my desire to do this for my child ticks you off, then eff you. Come on, make my day, and rage on about how my child will water down the program for your profoundly gifted precious.

I don't know which AAP program your daughter is in, but 'more disciplined' is NOT the way that I would describe my daughter's class. There are some real characters in her class, some more disruptive than others. I wouldn't say that her class is anymore disciplined than any other class. I wouldn't say that about the other two AAP classes in her grade either.

I can testify to this as well. It's like a 32 kid ADHD festival most days.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In response to 7:48/53, she also said that some files stop at the local screening committee and are not sent on to the central screening committee. These files could be either parent referrals or in pool kids. But if they don't send it to the central screening committee, they have to notify the parents and the parents have the option of pushing it on through to the central committee.

You may wish to refer your AART to the Local Plan for the Gifted, which clearly outlines the referral process and where referrals go. The local screening committee does prepare the GBRS, but cannot "stop" the referral to the central screening committee.

http://www.fcps.edu/is/aap/pdfs/localplan/FinalLocalPlan.pdf

page 6:

Grades 3-8 Center Program (Level IV)
Schools administer the Naglieri Nonverbal Ability Test (NNATII) to all first grade students and
the Cognitive Abilities Test (CogAT) to all second grade students (Attachment I). Subtest
scores on the CogAT and the score on the NNATII are used to determine a second grade pool of
candidates who are automatically screened for Level IV services (Attachment J). In addition,
students in grades 2–8 may be screened upon referral from parents or legal guardians, teachers,
professionals, students, peers, self or others. (Attachment K). Referrals may be submitted in the
fall if students are new to the county. All other referrals are due in early February and the
deadline is posted on the FCPS web site, and shared through the keep in touch system, a press
release, and school newsletters. The local Advanced Academic Program (AAP) screening
committee at each local school completes the Gifted Behaviors Rating Scale (GBRS) with input
from the teachers who work with the child. The Advanced Academic Resource Teacher (AART)
prepares and submits the completed screening files to the AAP office for division-wide central
selection committee review. In schools with Local Level IV, the local AAP screening committee
reviews multiple criteria to determine which students, in addition to center eligible students who
decide to remain at their local school, will be placed in the local level IV class.

And you may wish to refer your pretentious self to page 7 of the 2011-2012 FCPS AAP Parent Information Packet...

Local School Screening Committee:
The local school screening committee consists of at least three of the following: a teacher who works with the student, the advanced academic resource teacher, an administrator, English for Speakers of Other Languages (ESOL) teacher, and other specialists as needed. The local school committee completes the Gifted Behaviors Rating Scale with Commentary and prepares screening files for all second grade pool candidates, as well as referrals. Parents or guardians are notified if the local school screening committee does not refer the student to the central selection committee. If parents or guardians appeal the decision of the local screening committee, the file is forwarded for central selection committee review.

Anonymous wrote:In response to 7:48/53, she also said that some files stop at the local screening committee and are not sent on to the central screening committee. These files could be either parent referrals or in pool kids. But if they don't send it to the central screening committee, they have to notify the parents and the parents have the option of pushing it on through to the central committee.

You may wish to refer your AART to the Local Plan for the Gifted, which clearly outlines the referral process and where referrals go. The local screening committee does prepare the GBRS, but cannot "stop" the referral to the central screening committee.

http://www.fcps.edu/is/aap/pdfs/localplan/FinalLocalPlan.pdf

page 6:

Grades 3-8 Center Program (Level IV)
Schools administer the Naglieri Nonverbal Ability Test (NNATII) to all first grade students and
the Cognitive Abilities Test (CogAT) to all second grade students (Attachment I). Subtest
scores on the CogAT and the score on the NNATII are used to determine a second grade pool of
candidates who are automatically screened for Level IV services (Attachment J). In addition,
students in grades 2–8 may be screened upon referral from parents or legal guardians, teachers,
professionals, students, peers, self or others. (Attachment K). Referrals may be submitted in the
fall if students are new to the county. All other referrals are due in early February and the
deadline is posted on the FCPS web site, and shared through the keep in touch system, a press
release, and school newsletters. The local Advanced Academic Program (AAP) screening
committee at each local school completes the Gifted Behaviors Rating Scale (GBRS) with input
from the teachers who work with the child. The Advanced Academic Resource Teacher (AART)
prepares and submits the completed screening files to the AAP office for division-wide central
selection committee review. In schools with Local Level IV, the local AAP screening committee
reviews multiple criteria to determine which students, in addition to center eligible students who
decide to remain at their local school, will be placed in the local level IV class.

Anonymous wrote:I will go one step further. Yes, I want my snowflake in AAP. Badly. I will spend the bucks on WISC, endure the headaches of compiling outstanding work samples, and will grovel for letters of recommendation. I will do whatever I can to get him into the program (my daughter is in, via appeal, and here comes your favorite phrase for ridicule, she's thriving). Why do I want this so bad? Because hands down, it's a better education, with a more disciplined set of peers. If my desire to do this for my child ticks you off, then eff you. Come on, make my day, and rage on about how my child will water down the program for your profoundly gifted precious.

I don't know which AAP program your daughter is in, but 'more disciplined' is NOT the way that I would describe my daughter's class. There are some real characters in her class, some more disruptive than others. I wouldn't say that her class is anymore disciplined than any other class. I wouldn't say that about the other two AAP classes in her grade either.

Not the PP, but our AART told me that the committee IS looking for overall ability, not just one high score. She said that since AAP is accelerated in all areas the committee often feels that kids who are advanced in just one area would be better served in level III services. Of course, a high GRBS would indicate high ability and the anectotal notes provided on the form would indicate the areas in which a child is advanced.

In response to 7:48/53, she also said that some files stop at the local screening committee and are not sent on to the central screening committee. These files could be either parent referrals or in pool kids. But if they don't send it to the central screening committee, they have to notify the parents and the parents have the option of pushing it on through to the central committee.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Agreed. One high score between NNAT, the three sections of the CogAT, and the composite CogAT will get a child into the pool, but those files sometimes don't even make it past the local screening committee and are often found ineligible.

Yet another example for why to parent refer.

Should have added -- if a child is in the pool, or the child has been referred by the parent, the file goes to the central screening committee.

Anonymous wrote:Agreed. One high score between NNAT, the three sections of the CogAT, and the composite CogAT will get a child into the pool, but those files sometimes don't even make it past the local screening committee and are often found ineligible.

Yet another example for why to parent refer.

19:14 and 23:29: I am the reverse engineer. From my experience (first and knowledge from DD), a profile of all tests around 120 (not in pool) coupled with strong GBRS (15) will result in the child being accepted.

From what I can tell, they are specifically not looking for a single good score, but rather the overall package. The committee is aware that some kids prep for the test, which can alter the scores (according to reports on the companies that sell the prep) by 15-20 points, particularly on some subtests. Such preparation does not really improve the childs ability. As such, a large disparity in the scores is not a plus, but not necessarily a negative. (they look at composite scores, not the highest subtest). This is also why WISC is considered better: the WISC is an intelligence test.

With the 3000-5000 applicants the committee evaluates, though, they have to just focus on the numbers.

Agreed. One high score between NNAT, the three sections of the CogAT, and the composite CogAT will get a child into the pool, but those files sometimes don't even make it past the local screening committee and are often found ineligible.

For example, a child has a 140 on NNAT, but cogat scores are 118, 109, and 120. A profile like this will typically be found ineligible. They'd much rather see a 130 on NNAT and all 3 CogATs above 120.

They are looking for kids who need the program, not just kids who could do well in the program.

What data are you basing this on and how did you come up with these hypothetical score profiles & likely outcomes?

I have seen kids with only one subtest score above the cutoff get in. And 140 is a very high score for the NNAT - I don't think those scores are often rejected. The reason for administering more than one test and for screening kids who have only one subtest score above the cutoff is to cast a wider net in identifying these kids, with the assumption being that a kid may not test well in all areas or may not be gifted/advanced in all areas but may still need to be in the Center. So I disagree with the bolded part of your post above. ( If you do have some data to back it up, I'd truly be interested in reading it, as I'm always interested in learning more about the screening process.)

This is NOT like a college application process where they are looking for the most "well-rounded" candidates or kids who score well on these tests across the board. To the contrary, a kid can be off-the-charts in one area, like math, but not in other areas, and still be found eligible. There are loads of "quirky" kids in the Center who are outstanding in just one particular subject area.

Both of my kids, who fit the score profiles you describe as "will typically be found ineligible" were found eligible in the first round, without appeals. One got into the pool based on one subtest score on the CogAT and the other was a parent referral, not even in the pool.

Also, you don't mention the GBRS, which is equally as important as the test scores. I know we are talking test scores here, but that's only half of the equation. So it's almost impossible to generalize that a certain test score "profile" will typically be found eligible or ineligible because the GBRS carries so much weight in this process.

Agreed. One high score between NNAT, the three sections of the CogAT, and the composite CogAT will get a child into the pool, but those files sometimes don't even make it past the local screening committee and are often found ineligible.

For example, a child has a 140 on NNAT, but cogat scores are 118, 109, and 120. A profile like this will typically be found ineligible. They'd much rather see a 130 on NNAT and all 3 CogATs above 120.

They are looking for kids who need the program, not just kids who could do well in the program.

WISC scores usually trump NNAT2 and CogAT