Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just pull your kid out and tell them he cannot sing anything that has anything to do with Christmas. Then, you should put him in an all Hebrew school where he will never be around another Christian again. Tolerance isn't your strong suit, is it?

Oh boy, "tolerance" lady is back again. I'll spare you the definition of religious tolerance, because you won't get it this time, either. But you still haven't answered this question: why doesn't anyone say to Christians, "Why don't you put your child in a Christian school so he can sing all the religious songs he wants?"

Because it's a lot easier to just get the minorities to conform to the majority, right?

To date, Christians are the majority in public schools. Majority rules in a democracy so if you don't want your kids exposed to Christianity, then educate them in a school of their own religion and they will not be exposed to Christians. Of course, this changes when you get out of school. But maybe they can find a profession where everyone is of the same religion and live in an area where everyone is the same religion. These used to be called Ghettos and they weren't particularly good, were they?

This is incredibly offensive and anti-semetic. We all need to learn to live peacefully together, and democracy is not characterized by the majority ruling over the minority, but rather by decisions made by the whole to ideally benefit the greatest good. Although the lines are not perfect, there is a reasonable expectation of separation of church and state in public institutions. The question here is whether or not it is appropriate to have any type of non-secular music or activities in public schools, or where the line is drawn (balance with other cultural songs? Holiday themed but not religious?). I think that despite discomfort about this sensitive issue on either side, no one is saying that it is unhealthy for kids (and all of us, really) to learn about other religions and cultures. The question is rather what the appropriate context, time, and place is for that. PP, your anti-semetic comment and light reference to the Holocaust is scary. Hate is bad for all of us, regardless of faith.

I think calling it an advent carol and not a Christmas carol is splitting hairs, a little. It's about Jesus and waiting for him to be born.

I agree it's a beautiful song. I think it would be ok in conjunction with other songs from other traditions.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Yes, it was much better in the good old days when Jews knew their place, wasn't it, PP? Thanks for warning OP to act like a good little Jew instead of one of the bad ones.

yes
Once upon a time people of different religions lived in different neighbourhoods, went to different schools, even occationally had separate cities
then someone invented communism and all religions were treated equally (banned) and christman was replaced with new year celebrations.
In those days everyone knew their place.
Funny how now to know your place means you should complain and freighten the majority and ban them from singing songs that are relevant to them in the context of their own culture in their own land.
I see now why some minorities are not liked

"In their own land", huh? This (mistaken) perception of yours is the crux of the conflict. It's not any one group's "own land", government, or school. If you're really so immersed in such nonsense that you're spouting such spittle-flecked silliness, you're taking yourself out of the rational discussion. Not that this troubles an increasingly vocal bunch of idiots these days, but it should be very scary for those of us who manage to keep our monitors dry when we discuss politics and religion online.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Yes, it was much better in the good old days when Jews knew their place, wasn't it, PP? Thanks for warning OP to act like a good little Jew instead of one of the bad ones.

yes
Once upon a time people of different religions lived in different neighbourhoods, went to different schools, even occationally had separate cities
then someone invented communism and all religions were treated equally (banned) and christman was replaced with new year celebrations.
In those days everyone knew their place.
Funny how now to know your place means you should complain and freighten the majority and ban them from singing songs that are relevant to them in the context of their own culture in their own land.
I see now why some minorities are not liked

Let me guess, you're White and Christian. I am too, but I at least recognize that some people may not like "their place" very much.

Anonymous wrote:
Yes, it was much better in the good old days when Jews knew their place, wasn't it, PP? Thanks for warning OP to act like a good little Jew instead of one of the bad ones.

yes
Once upon a time people of different religions lived in different neighbourhoods, went to different schools, even occationally had separate cities
then someone invented communism and all religions were treated equally (banned) and christman was replaced with new year celebrations.
In those days everyone knew their place.
Funny how now to know your place means you should complain and freighten the majority and ban them from singing songs that are relevant to them in the context of their own culture in their own land.
I see now why some minorities are not liked

I am Jewish and would not be happy. However, the rule is that if the song is part of a secular program it is permitted. For example, if another class is signing dreidel dreidel or if the song is a single religious one among a group of winter songs, it is okay. If all of the songs have a religious overtone or if a religion is being celebrated (as opposed to being taught), it is unlawful.

Oh, and... +1 for not cool.

Anonymous wrote:SUE THEM! SUE THEM!

it is a song, pick your battles. why act like a jerk and perpetuate stereotypes?

Yes, it was much better in the good old days when Jews knew their place, wasn't it, PP? Thanks for warning OP to act like a good little Jew instead of one of the bad ones.

it is time for these religious posts to die

If there's balance, is it OK? One Hannukah song for each Christmas song? (And this regardless of the actual composition of the student body.)

OP, do they sing a Hannukah song too at your kid's school, so that there's balance?

(Unfortunately, I'm not convinced OP is what you'd call a reliable narrator in a novel.)

so at what point is it too much? How many times have you heard the Cat Stevens song A os for Allah sung during a school program (or any Islamic songs?)

The bottom line is that the courts have decided. If you have issue raise it.

Anonymous wrote:Likewise; I don't like it, but it's not a big enough deal to complain about.

At my school (which was a Christian religious school) they always sang the hymn Onward, Christian Soldiers on Yom Kippur ... and never any other time. Coincidence perhaps. I always wanted to complain about that one (as I am Jewish) but I recognized that I was at a Christian school and they could do whatever they wanted, no matter how insensitive to the 10% of the student body that was not Christian. If they sang Onward, Christian Soldiers at a public school, I'd be livid. But somehow O Come, O Come Emanuel doesn't seem as bad to me, particularly if it's just one of several songs.

If it's any consolation, many churches don't sing Onward Christian Soldiers at any time of the year anymore. It's considered too militant, and it probably is too militant....

Likewise; I don't like it, but it's not a big enough deal to complain about.

At my school (which was a Christian religious school) they always sang the hymn Onward, Christian Soldiers on Yom Kippur ... and never any other time. Coincidence perhaps. I always wanted to complain about that one (as I am Jewish) but I recognized that I was at a Christian school and they could do whatever they wanted, no matter how insensitive to the 10% of the student body that was not Christian. If they sang Onward, Christian Soldiers at a public school, I'd be livid. But somehow O Come, O Come Emanuel doesn't seem as bad to me, particularly if it's just one of several songs.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just pull your kid out and tell them he cannot sing anything that has anything to do with Christmas. Then, you should put him in an all Hebrew school where he will never be around another Christian again. Tolerance isn't your strong suit, is it?

Oh boy, "tolerance" lady is back again. I'll spare you the definition of religious tolerance, because you won't get it this time, either. But you still haven't answered this question: why doesn't anyone say to Christians, "Why don't you put your child in a Christian school so he can sing all the religious songs he wants?"

Because it's a lot easier to just get the minorities to conform to the majority, right?

To date, Christians are the majority in public schools. Majority rules in a democracy so if you don't want your kids exposed to Christianity, then educate them in a school of their own religion and they will not be exposed to Christians. Of course, this changes when you get out of school. But maybe they can find a profession where everyone is of the same religion and live in an area where everyone is the same religion. These used to be called Ghettos and they weren't particularly good, were they?

Um.... wow.

And FYI, I am the person you are responding to, and I am Christian. FTR, you scare me.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Exposure to other cultures is a good thing, not a bad thing. My kids have attended several schools between them, and at every school they have sung Hannukah and Kwanza songs as well as maybe one (and not always one) Christmas song.

I never even thought of complaining about the Hannukah and Kwanza songs. I doubt any of you would come on here complaining about the Hanukkah songs, either (that's because I think some of you are hypocrites).

Do you not see the difference between a holiday song (which might be about the holiday of Christmas, Thanksgiving, Hanukkah or Kwanzaa) and a religious song (which is essentially a musical prayer), or are you intentionally ignoring the difference. I can tell you that I don't think it's appropriate to be singing religious songs in elementary school no matter what the religion is.

I agree that exposing kids to other cultures is a good thing, but think the suggestion that Christianity (or Christmas) is a culture to which non-Christians need more exposure is a little silly. I can tell you that Jewish kids in my neighborhood usually knew more about Christianity than the Christian kids.

It sounds like you're saying that if my kids sang a Channukah song it must have been secular, but that any Christmas song is by definition religious, either in explicit content (Oh come, oh come, Emmanuel) or by association (Jingle Bells).

Really? That's absurd!!!! If you really need an explanation from me, a non-Jew, my kids sang Hannukah songs about lighting the menorah in school. They didn't sing anything by Adam Sandler, and I'd be really suprised to hear that any non-Jewish school is doing Adam Sandler or his secular ilk.

And congrats that your kids know all about Christianity (although I totally think you're wrong about this and exaggerating). Like another PP said, you really do sound like you want your kids in a little cave of you own religion where they never learn anything about Christianity, Islam, Kwanzaa, Buddhism, atheism, or anything you don't teach them yourself.

That would be absurd (almost as absurd as saying any Advent or Christmas carol cannot be religious), but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying some songs, like Come O Emanuel are religious, and some songs, like Jingle Bells or Santa Claus is coming to town, are not. Likewise the "dreidl song" is not religious but Maoz Tzur/Rock of Ages is religious. A lot of posters in this thread can tell the difference, not sure why it seems so hard.

I am certainly not exaggerating when I say that in my experience Jewish kids are taught much more about Christianity than Christian kids are taught about Judaism, and I certainly don't want my kids in a "little cave" but you are free to believe whatever you want to believe.

Anyway, I'm in the camp of "not cool" but personally I wouldn't complain about it.