Anonymous wrote:I love Dr. Amy. I would never take any risks with my unborn child (proud recipient of 3 C-sections) but believe other women should have the right to choose. I don't think homebirthers are selfish and arrogant although I wonder about motivations when there are complicating factors like VBAC, gestational diabetes, etc. I figure that most people are comfortable with a higher degree of risk than I am.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:11:30, glad to hear you aren't 12:26. I suddenly felt I had experienced a bait and switch in the discussion.

Wait, I'm 12:26 and what did I do that made me so bad?! I realize I have an unusual position, but I am definitely not irrational or naive. I've been involved with childbirth both professionally and politically for a long time, and I've witnessed so many interesting, disturbing, heartbreaking, infuriating situations it would make your head spin. I really do respect others opinions but in this situation, I honestly believe that it is not simply a matter of a bad midwife getting investigated.

11:30 and I had been going back and forth. If she had written your post it would have been inconsistent with some of the content and the point of her earlier posts.

Anonymous wrote:12:26, you don't seem irrational, I didn't mean to suggest that. But can I ask, what rights do you think a full term baby has, if any, and who has the power to enforce those rights, if anyone, other than the mother?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:11:30, glad to hear you aren't 12:26. I suddenly felt I had experienced a bait and switch in the discussion.

Wait, I'm 12:26 and what did I do that made me so bad?! I realize I have an unusual position, but I am definitely not irrational or naive. I've been involved with childbirth both professionally and politically for a long time, and I've witnessed so many interesting, disturbing, heartbreaking, infuriating situations it would make your head spin. I really do respect others opinions but in this situation, I honestly believe that it is not simply a matter of a bad midwife getting investigated.

Anonymous wrote:11:30, glad to hear you aren't 12:26. I suddenly felt I had experienced a bait and switch in the discussion.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There's two issues being conflated here. Women have the right to choose to give birth at home, regardless of the circumstances, or that in some cases, it is ill-advised. Medical professionals (including midwives), on the other hand, are expected to adhere to well-known standards of care. In certain situations, that can require them to insist that the patient give birth at a hospital, or decline to provide care if they refuse to leave the home. Evelyn was suspended because of complaints that she failed to adhere to the standard of care. She's not being prosecuted (to my knowledge) - she faces licensing ramifications because the she failed to comply with the licensing board's standard of care.

Short version - I suppose it was inevitable, but there's no reason this discussion needed to turn into a debate about the relative merits of home v. hospital birth.

According to whom? Why does a doctor -- whose protocols are often based on liability issues, bad or ever-changing research, or personal opinions - get to dictate how a midwife must practice? Just because doctors have come up with a "standard of care" does NOT mean that this is best course of action for every woman giving birth. We deserve to make our own decisions and have the attendant of our choosing at our births, regardless of what ACOGs opinion is about various pregnancy or birth complications.

Evelyn was suspended because the doctors who witnessed these transfers got pissed off and jumped at the opportunity to take down an excellent, well-respected, highly-educated homebirth midwife. These doctors have without doubt experienced some of these same exact tragic outcomes in their own practice, yet they are not turning in their licenses. The reality of birth is that sometimes bad things happen - to midwives and doctors alike. However, doctors will use those tragedies against the midwives. It is insane and does not serve women at all, and encourages midwives to delay transport in potentially dire circumstances. Futhermore, the board that suspended her license does not even consist of her peers -- no homebirth midwives (and if I remember correctly, no midwives at all!) sit on that board. As with all other medical professionals, a provider should be reviewed by others who have the same credentials.

According to whom? The entity that gave her the license. Was that not clear?

I understand that you don’t feel this is the way things SHOULD be. You don’t think that doctors should have any input into how a midwife conducts her business. Fair enough, although I disagree. But – and I can’t emphasize this enough – that is not how things ARE. The fact is, the licensing board DOES define standards of care, and it is alleged that Evelyn violated them. Even if you do get the governing structure changed going forward (and I’m not sure how successful you’ll be) it’s not going to do anything for her. Isn’t it better to deal with reality, and not how you think things should be? Tru to change them, sure, but right now, deal with the circumstances that exist.

And to an outsider, the persecution complex is really off-putting. Assuming that doctors are out to get midwives is pretty insulting, and I’m not even a doctor. And saying “bad things happen” is so facile – of course they do, but there are procedures in place that are designed to limit the number of times that we have to shrug off the death of an infant with, “oh, well, shit happens.” If someone doesn’t follow the established standard of care, do you really think it’s appropriate to just excuse that failure with, “bad things happen?”

In any case, thanks for being rational about things

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm 11:30 and probably a couple other places on this thread. I am NOT 12:26 and do not agree with her position. I believe that there should be licensing requirements for midwives because I believe that regulation, training and and standards of care are the best ways that we as consumers have of evaluating a particular practitioner's ability. I think that NARM is a good start, but it's still got a ways to go.

That said, 12:58, I think it's really interesting that you feel there is some kind of home birth agenda on this board. Every time there is a thread about home birth, extremely angry posters seem to come out of the woodwork to tell women who birth at home (and women like me, who had babies at birth centers with midwives) that they're being irresponsible, arrogant, selfish, prioritize having a good birth story over having a healthy baby, etc. That has happened several times in this thread, and it's only 4 pages. I remember the Karen Carr thread and posted there a lot too - how long did that one get? 30 pages? 35?

I think that everyone coming on this board has some kind of personal axe to grind, and that is confusing to me. Why should I care where your baby was born? Why should I care if you had an epidural? Why would we even talk about it unless we both want to talk about it? One of my best friends strongly believes that all babies should be born in hospitals. She told me this once, long after my daughter was born. I felt judged, but I didn't respond, because every time people like me faced with situations like that respond, we get accused of having an agenda.

As for your comment that assuming doctors are out to get midwives being insulting, I agree that it is a blanket insult that ALL doctors are out to get ALL midwives, since that's certainly not true. However, there are doctors who are threatened by midwives, who don't like working with midwife clients, who are rude and condescending to midwife clients who need to transfer their care for whatever reasons. Just as you told the poster you were responding to, I understand that you don't feel this is the way things SHOULD be, but - and I can't emphasize this enough - that is how things sometimes ARE.

I am 12:58 – I agree that there’s a lot of venom going both ways. The anti-home-birth-at-all-costs crowd is as irrational as 12:26 and others. But I wasn’t responding to them, and my comments about the persecution complex were directed at the following statement, which I don’t believe serves anyone’s best interests:

"Evelyn was suspended because the doctors who witnessed these transfers got pissed off and jumped at the opportunity to take down an excellent, well-respected, highly-educated homebirth midwife. These doctors have without doubt experienced some of these same exact tragic outcomes in their own practice, yet they are not turning in their licenses. The reality of birth is that sometimes bad things happen - to midwives and doctors alike. However, doctors will use those tragedies against the midwives. It is insane and does not serve women at all, and encourages midwives to delay transport in potentially dire circumstances."

And while I appreciate the attempt to turn my own words against me, I don’t believe I ever said that all doctors welcomed midwives with open arms – go back and check if you don’t believe me. Such a statement would be incredibly naïve. What I said was that reflexively ascribing ulterior motives to every doctor who files a complaint against a midwife is insulting, intellectually lazy, and does your cause no service. Here, one baby died, and other mothers and babies arrived at the hospital in significant distress, and there are numerous allegations that the standard of care was not followed. Dismissing the complaints as, “well, they’re just out to get all midwives” leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Anonymous wrote:I'm 11:30 and probably a couple other places on this thread. I am NOT 12:26 and do not agree with her position. I believe that there should be licensing requirements for midwives because I believe that regulation, training and and standards of care are the best ways that we as consumers have of evaluating a particular practitioner's ability. I think that NARM is a good start, but it's still got a ways to go.

That said, 12:58, I think it's really interesting that you feel there is some kind of home birth agenda on this board. Every time there is a thread about home birth, extremely angry posters seem to come out of the woodwork to tell women who birth at home (and women like me, who had babies at birth centers with midwives) that they're being irresponsible, arrogant, selfish, prioritize having a good birth story over having a healthy baby, etc. That has happened several times in this thread, and it's only 4 pages. I remember the Karen Carr thread and posted there a lot too - how long did that one get? 30 pages? 35?

I think that everyone coming on this board has some kind of personal axe to grind, and that is confusing to me. Why should I care where your baby was born? Why should I care if you had an epidural? Why would we even talk about it unless we both want to talk about it? One of my best friends strongly believes that all babies should be born in hospitals. She told me this once, long after my daughter was born. I felt judged, but I didn't respond, because every time people like me faced with situations like that respond, we get accused of having an agenda.

As for your comment that assuming doctors are out to get midwives being insulting, I agree that it is a blanket insult that ALL doctors are out to get ALL midwives, since that's certainly not true. However, there are doctors who are threatened by midwives, who don't like working with midwife clients, who are rude and condescending to midwife clients who need to transfer their care for whatever reasons. Just as you told the poster you were responding to, I understand that you don't feel this is the way things SHOULD be, but - and I can't emphasize this enough - that is how things sometimes ARE.

Anonymous wrote:Midwifery is truly one of the oldest professions, and seeks to assist in a natural stage of life which will occur regardless of who is watching or assisting. It is also an event that in a few very rare cases - no matter who is assisting - will result in some tragedy.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There's two issues being conflated here. Women have the right to choose to give birth at home, regardless of the circumstances, or that in some cases, it is ill-advised. Medical professionals (including midwives), on the other hand, are expected to adhere to well-known standards of care. In certain situations, that can require them to insist that the patient give birth at a hospital, or decline to provide care if they refuse to leave the home. Evelyn was suspended because of complaints that she failed to adhere to the standard of care. She's not being prosecuted (to my knowledge) - she faces licensing ramifications because the she failed to comply with the licensing board's standard of care.

Short version - I suppose it was inevitable, but there's no reason this discussion needed to turn into a debate about the relative merits of home v. hospital birth.

According to whom? Why does a doctor -- whose protocols are often based on liability issues, bad or ever-changing research, or personal opinions - get to dictate how a midwife must practice? Just because doctors have come up with a "standard of care" does NOT mean that this is best course of action for every woman giving birth. We deserve to make our own decisions and have the attendant of our choosing at our births, regardless of what ACOGs opinion is about various pregnancy or birth complications.

Evelyn was suspended because the doctors who witnessed these transfers got pissed off and jumped at the opportunity to take down an excellent, well-respected, highly-educated homebirth midwife. These doctors have without doubt experienced some of these same exact tragic outcomes in their own practice, yet they are not turning in their licenses. The reality of birth is that sometimes bad things happen - to midwives and doctors alike. However, doctors will use those tragedies against the midwives. It is insane and does not serve women at all, and encourages midwives to delay transport in potentially dire circumstances. Futhermore, the board that suspended her license does not even consist of her peers -- no homebirth midwives (and if I remember correctly, no midwives at all!) sit on that board. As with all other medical professionals, a provider should be reviewed by others who have the same credentials.