Anonymous
10/30/2011 08:20
Subject: Re:Lulumon Murder: Apple Store Employees Testimony
I am sorry, but I think it is crazy that people are refusing to go to the Apple store because of this. How could you possibly boycott the store because of this incident? Apple has nothing to do with this people.
Anonymous
10/30/2011 02:51
Subject: Re:Lulumon Murder: Apple Store Employees Testimony
Anonymous wrote:I think that's what disturbs me most - calling 911 would not have endangered the Apple employees in the least. It's one thing to witness an assault and be afraid that if you intervene you will be hurt/killed, but here the options were
A- Do nothing and stay next door to possible violent assault, not knowing what attacker will do next; or
B- Bring police into the situation, which could aid both the victim AND you.
I mean, I guess if it's a false alarm the neighbors could get mad at you, but this is not an isolated area, the police could have been called by a passer-by, store on other side, etc.
I read this article and was thinking the same thing...what harm would it have done to call 911? I couldn't stop thinking about Jayna again after I read about that testimony...how could you hear words and sounds like that and not intervene in some way? It was haunting me last night when I went to bed...I guess I'm not the only one. That poor girl. Someone heard her asking for help. And they didn't do anything. I wonder if these employees are struggling with that.
Anonymous
10/29/2011 23:28
Subject: Re:Lulumon Murder: Apple Store Employees Testimony
I think that's what disturbs me most - calling 911 would not have endangered the Apple employees in the least. It's one thing to witness an assault and be afraid that if you intervene you will be hurt/killed, but here the options were
A- Do nothing and stay next door to possible violent assault, not knowing what attacker will do next; or
B- Bring police into the situation, which could aid both the victim AND you.
I mean, I guess if it's a false alarm the neighbors could get mad at you, but this is not an isolated area, the police could have been called by a passer-by, store on other side, etc.
A- Do nothing and stay next door to possible violent assault, not knowing what attacker will do next; or
B- Bring police into the situation, which could aid both the victim AND you.
I mean, I guess if it's a false alarm the neighbors could get mad at you, but this is not an isolated area, the police could have been called by a passer-by, store on other side, etc.
Anonymous
10/29/2011 23:11
Subject: Re:Lulumon Murder: Apple Store Employees Testimony
I got to speaking with an officer from the 2nd District once-that's the station closest to Bethesda Row. She told me that a lot of their calls end up being false alarms, but that people should always call if they have doubt and let someone with a gun check it out. That comment has stayed with me. There's no reason for the Apple managers to claim that their security guards should have handled it. The managers could have called 911 same as their security guards.
Anonymous
10/29/2011 22:37
Subject: Re:Lulumon Murder: Apple Store Employees Testimony
IDK. It happened in a busy, nice area where this kind of thing doesn't happen so easy to brush it off. OOH, maybe they should have been concerned for the same reason. *shrugs*
Anonymous
10/29/2011 22:24
Subject: Lulumon Murder: Apple Store Employees Testimony
I think it has to do with upbringing and being responsible, no? You don't have to put yourself in danger (going into the Lululemon store) but really, pick up the phone and call for help.
I know people who repeatedly call jurisdictional authorities for far less (knowing it is far from an emergency) - they should be fined for wasting community resources (many places have this in effect). Any probable cause that someone is being injured or killed should have been a no brainer.
Funny how it seems it is one extreme or another: obsessed unstable person or flat affect/pretend to be oblivious person.
I know people who repeatedly call jurisdictional authorities for far less (knowing it is far from an emergency) - they should be fined for wasting community resources (many places have this in effect). Any probable cause that someone is being injured or killed should have been a no brainer.
Funny how it seems it is one extreme or another: obsessed unstable person or flat affect/pretend to be oblivious person.
Anonymous
10/29/2011 22:18
Subject: Lulumon Murder: Apple Store Employees Testimony
The fact that they went to the wall and heard those words tells me they were concerned. They just lacked the courage to follow-through. A bet a decent number of people would have taken this course, but that doesn't make it right.
Let's be honest, when you don't have full information you are at risk of making a mistake whether you call or not. The problem is that calling the police when there is not a problem is only inconvenient, while not calling the police when there is a problem is tragic. That means that the worst-case outcomes of either decision is not even, so you have lean towards calling.
In the end, it takes guts, confidence, and concern for others to make the call. My experience in calling the police is that they will never get on your case, especially if you have a coherent story. "I heard loud noises and someone saying "God, please help me", is more than enough justification. It was flat out was wrong not to call the police. That doesn't mean they are murderers or even bad people, but they need to look in the mirror and really understand that they made a mistake. MYOB goes out the window if someone might be in immediate danger.
Let's be honest, when you don't have full information you are at risk of making a mistake whether you call or not. The problem is that calling the police when there is not a problem is only inconvenient, while not calling the police when there is a problem is tragic. That means that the worst-case outcomes of either decision is not even, so you have lean towards calling.
In the end, it takes guts, confidence, and concern for others to make the call. My experience in calling the police is that they will never get on your case, especially if you have a coherent story. "I heard loud noises and someone saying "God, please help me", is more than enough justification. It was flat out was wrong not to call the police. That doesn't mean they are murderers or even bad people, but they need to look in the mirror and really understand that they made a mistake. MYOB goes out the window if someone might be in immediate danger.
Anonymous
10/29/2011 22:14
Subject: Re:Lulumon Murder: Apple Store Employees Testimony
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It's freaking me out that employees heard what they heard and did not call the police. I'd read reports that they heard noises, but did not appreciate until yesterday that they could hear actual words, and that it was obvious from what they were hearing that something was really, really wrong.
I thought the exact same thing! What. In the fuck were these two people thinking? How difficult would it have been to dial 911 -- even if you're not that sure, maybe it was a joke, maybe they're just moving heavy furniture ....
This guy and this chick are the embodiment of what is wrong with the 'earbuds glued permanently into my ear canal, eyes down on a flickering screen 115% of the time' generation that has been "brought up on technology." Which of course is fostered by their employer, but does go beyond that. (ie, you can be oblivious to the bus about to run you over because you're staring at a text on your Droid, not iPhone).
No need to engage, ever, with your surroundings or reach out.
ITA, and I like how you've stated it. I'm so sick of Gen Y people constantly staring at their gadgets and plugged into their iPods. Something egregious happens right in front of them and they don't even blink an eye. I was walking in CH the other day when an old Latino woman fell down on the street. She was lying on the sidewalk and three young people just walked by her. I scrambled to go help her and raise her up. She was so glad of the assistance, and thanked me over and over. I'm not saying this to brag on myself, but WTH is wrong with the people that passed her? I'm 41, FWIW.
Just curious what her ethnicity has to do with your anecdote?
Nothing, really. I noticed it b/c she thanked me profusely in Spanish over and over. I understood all her words and fortunately it gave me an opportunity to use my Spanish.
For that matter, did you even need to mention that she was old? Or even that it was a woman? You could've just said" someone fell down in the street and nobody helped".
Honestly, folks, when people tell a story, sometimes describing a person's heritage helps convey the information so that someone else can put themselves in your shoes.
Anonymous
10/29/2011 22:14
Subject: Lulumon Murder: Apple Store Employees Testimony
21:30 OP here. That doesn't change everything. These were store managers. I would never cede authority to someone else. or shift into "it's not my department" thinking, if I thought someone was in danger. I just wouldn't. I'm not demonizing these two, but it is so far from my instincts. I've called the police tons of times, when I was a teenager, I intervened in a crazy fight where I could have been badly injured, etc. Anyway, it's a sad one.
Anonymous
10/29/2011 22:05
Subject: Lulumon Murder: Apple Store Employees Testimony
I am not sure how they can live with themselves. My neighbor was raped and screamed but I slept through it all. I felt terrible for years.
Anonymous
10/29/2011 21:30
Subject: Re:Lulumon Murder: Apple Store Employees Testimony
Anonymous wrote:I actually read that the Apple employees did alert the security guards in their store and asked them to investigate. The security guards did nothing though and were actually fired the following day. So the Apple employees weren't completely at fault..in hindsight, they should have been more proactive about following up with the guards. It appears the loser security guards (whose FUCKING job it is to provide security, right?) were the ones who dropped the ball. One apparently had his headphones in.
Is this true? because if so that changes everything.
Anonymous
10/29/2011 21:25
Subject: Re:Lulumon Murder: Apple Store Employees Testimony
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It's freaking me out that employees heard what they heard and did not call the police. I'd read reports that they heard noises, but did not appreciate until yesterday that they could hear actual words, and that it was obvious from what they were hearing that something was really, really wrong.
I thought the exact same thing! What. In the fuck were these two people thinking? How difficult would it have been to dial 911 -- even if you're not that sure, maybe it was a joke, maybe they're just moving heavy furniture ....
This guy and this chick are the embodiment of what is wrong with the 'earbuds glued permanently into my ear canal, eyes down on a flickering screen 115% of the time' generation that has been "brought up on technology." Which of course is fostered by their employer, but does go beyond that. (ie, you can be oblivious to the bus about to run you over because you're staring at a text on your Droid, not iPhone).
No need to engage, ever, with your surroundings or reach out.
ITA, and I like how you've stated it. I'm so sick of Gen Y people constantly staring at their gadgets and plugged into their iPods. Something egregious happens right in front of them and they don't even blink an eye. I was walking in CH the other day when an old Latino woman fell down on the street. She was lying on the sidewalk and three young people just walked by her. I scrambled to go help her and raise her up. She was so glad of the assistance, and thanked me over and over. I'm not saying this to brag on myself, but WTH is wrong with the people that passed her? I'm 41, FWIW.
Just curious what her ethnicity has to do with your anecdote?
Nothing, really. I noticed it b/c she thanked me profusely in Spanish over and over. I understood all her words and fortunately it gave me an opportunity to use my Spanish.
Anonymous
10/29/2011 21:15
Subject: Re:Lulumon Murder: Apple Store Employees Testimony
Anonymous wrote:Here is an article about one of the Apple employee's (former?) boyfriends. About halfway down, it starts describing how he enjoyed taking enough psychedelic drugs to kill a horse, in order to support his art. And yes, I know that has absolutely nothing to do directly with the fact that Jana Svrzo didn't call 911 after hearing a woman's hysterical screams and cries of "God, please help me."
http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/special/tolman081205.html
What on earth does this have to do with anything? I know everyone's upset about the gruesome murder, but there's no need to look for heads to roll or smear campaigns. It's clear who's responsible. What are you going to do next? Post every boyfriend/friend/relative of those employees. Try and focus.
Anonymous
10/29/2011 21:05
Subject: Re:Lulumon Murder: Apple Store Employees Testimony
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It's freaking me out that employees heard what they heard and did not call the police. I'd read reports that they heard noises, but did not appreciate until yesterday that they could hear actual words, and that it was obvious from what they were hearing that something was really, really wrong.
I thought the exact same thing! What. In the fuck were these two people thinking? How difficult would it have been to dial 911 -- even if you're not that sure, maybe it was a joke, maybe they're just moving heavy furniture ....
This guy and this chick are the embodiment of what is wrong with the 'earbuds glued permanently into my ear canal, eyes down on a flickering screen 115% of the time' generation that has been "brought up on technology." Which of course is fostered by their employer, but does go beyond that. (ie, you can be oblivious to the bus about to run you over because you're staring at a text on your Droid, not iPhone).
No need to engage, ever, with your surroundings or reach out.
ITA, and I like how you've stated it. I'm so sick of Gen Y people constantly staring at their gadgets and plugged into their iPods. Something egregious happens right in front of them and they don't even blink an eye. I was walking in CH the other day when an old Latino woman fell down on the street. She was lying on the sidewalk and three young people just walked by her. I scrambled to go help her and raise her up. She was so glad of the assistance, and thanked me over and over. I'm not saying this to brag on myself, but WTH is wrong with the people that passed her? I'm 41, FWIW.
Just curious what her ethnicity has to do with your anecdote?
Anonymous
10/29/2011 19:55
Subject: Re:Lulumon Murder: Apple Store Employees Testimony
Anonymous wrote:I agree with not demonizing the people who did not help. Certainly, they didn't think to themselves "clearly someone is being murdered, who gives a F?" Being stupid, or just acting stupidly in the moment is not a crime, nor evil. But, I think it is indicative of the fact that, as a society, many of us second-guess ourselves too much when we should take action, and the "better safe than sorry" instinct can be paralyzed when it is most important. I am sure that the Apple store employees are aware they could have saved a life, but they (and we) are only humans and we humans are all deeply flawed. Again, there are many, many reasons to act, and the biggest reason not to act is uncertainty. There should be more awareness, as we bring up our children, to ALWAYS ACT. We talk about how children need to be expressly taught not to be racist, we overthink how much we're praising our children, etc, and while it goes without saying that we should teach our children to watch out for one another, how to intervene safely, etc, it's obviously that something is not working.
I cannot imagine anyone not acting in that situation, as I heard it described to me, and I have to say that I also had a visceral response that was highly unfavorable to those employees, but I wasn't there.
I made the mistake of looking at those photos. The most heartbreaking one was of Jayna's parents going into the court. It makes you contemplate life. At some point, life goes on, the sun comes up and goes down, and you're without your daughter. The dad was carrying a starbucks coffee and I was thinking "at least he still enjoys coffee." I hope the parents find other things in life they can enjoy again, and that somehow, everyone connected to this terrible tragedy can find peace.
Totally agree. And, there is no point in demonizing these two. I absolutely think I would have called -and I've intervened in a domestic violence situation previously- but there was no way they knew someone was being brutally murdered. And, there is plenty of psychology out there about how people become paralyzed or act in strange ways in these situations. Finally, as someone said, this is not a "Gen Y" problem. The Kitty Genovese story was decades ago.
And, those two have a terrible punishment: they have to live with themselves and know that a woman died and they could have possibly done something to stop it but did not. Whether intentionally or not, I'd have a hard time living with myself.
The whole situation is sad, awful, terrible . . . and solely on the shoulders of Brittany Norwood.