Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm troubled by the fact that you think this is unique and intrinsic to women. What you're describing - a dynamic where women are mean, toxic shrews and men are cool and "chill" - is so regressive and anti-woman that it feels like something you'd hear 20 years ago.

My guess is that you're giving off "I'm not like the other girls!" vibes that other women find offensive and off-putting. I love women and I'm certainly not going to forge a relationship with someone who thinks women suck and are inherently inferior to men.

OP does not claim this is "intrinsic" to women, nor dues she call women "mean, toxic shrews." Thats all your projection.

OP is describing a personal experience where other moms have been competitive or conformist which is not a behavior she notices in men around her. There are multiple explanations for this, including the idea that women tend to be more competitive or harder on each other *because* of internalized misogyny. Nothing OP has said indicates that she thinks women are intrinsically inferior to men, only that she's noticed a behavior among women in her life that is not present in the men and is asking why.

It is a behavior many women have noticed in groups of women, this isn't a new line of inquiry, it's a documented phenomenon, even if you personally have not experienced it.

The irony here is wild. I know this isn't your intent, but you're describing precisely what the OP is doing in this post.

I disagree that's what she's doing. If you read all of OP's posts, she's talking about specific behaviors this group of moms have engaged in that have led to her feeling judged and hurt (behaviors like criticizing her directly for choices like not dying her hair). I also think it's obvious she's not talking about individual women being chill or nice, but about the dynamics between women. She's asking why, when women are in groups together, is it hard for them to just be accepting and tolerant of each other without judgment and competition.

OP could have framed this better but this isn't a novel observation. Many, many women have expressed frustration with the way women interact with each other, and complained about the exact same dynamics OP describes -- enforced conformity, judgment of any deviation, an emphasis on physical appearance and performance of motherhood. I don't think women do any of this because women just intrinsically are bad. I think we do it because we are all participating in the misogynist pastime of constantly measuring and comparing women in order to find them wanting, so that we may criticize and judge them. All women have experienced this. When it happens at the hands of other women it feels like a betrayal, and when it happens at the hands of an entire group of women it is worse. Admitting this is not misogyny. Women participate in the patriarchy every day. Pointing that out is not misogyny.

It isn't. If that's the only experience you have with groups of women, I feel sorry for you. You're either a terrible judge of character or you're seeing/perceiving these situations in a distorted way.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m always dubious when an adult claims they’ve been bullied by another adult. I’m sure it happens on rare occasions, but I tend to think the person claiming to have been bullied is just upset they haven’t been made to feel welcome by a social group.
The meaning of the word bully has been totally watered down as well as become shorthand for “not included”.

Let me help, because I think you just don't know what bullying is.

Bullying requires engagement. If someone just isn't inclusive of you or doesn't want to be your friend, that's not bullying. That's a person expressing a social preference. It can hurt, and it can even be done in a hurtful way, but it's not bullying. It's just rejection.

Bullies engage and use that engagement to harm. Usually bullies befriend (in order to learn about you and collect info) and THEN reject. This happened to me in a workplace once. When I started, these women were *so* friendly -- they'd invite me to lunch or to parties at their homes, they'd swing by my office to chat, etc. But then they started gossiping about me, using things I'd shared with them (not secrets but just details about my life that they only knew because they'd gone out of their way to befriend me) to talk a bunch of s**t about me. They continued to act friendly to my face and never said anything to indicate to me that they had an issue with me. So I heard about everything second hand from other colleagues. They stopped inviting me to things but then would discuss these events during work meetings or in the hallway outside my office so that I knew I hadn't been invited. They had this way of looking at me and then at each other -- they had clearly decided I wasn't good enough for them and were enjoying how their shared dislike of me made them more of a unit. I think they also liked the feeling of power that came from judging me and finding me wanting. It was affirming for them.

They could have just... not befriended me. I watched them do this with another woman who joined the office after me -- they'd come on really strong and adopt the new person and then turn on her. There was also someone else who joined and they befriended her but didn't turn on her. I guess they decided she was one of them. But this is not just social rejection. It is aggressive behavior and I don't know how to describe it other than to call it bullying. It's the adult version of Mean Girls, the same weird social aggression masked as friendship. It definitely happens.

You sound paranoid. I don't think people are thinking about you as much as you think they are. You are weaving quite a story there in your own mind about the motivations and thoughts and invisible actions of others. Not PP

I don't know how you could read that and think the behavior it describes is simply being misinterpreted. That's textbook bullying, even if the behavior wasn't intentional.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m always dubious when an adult claims they’ve been bullied by another adult. I’m sure it happens on rare occasions, but I tend to think the person claiming to have been bullied is just upset they haven’t been made to feel welcome by a social group.
The meaning of the word bully has been totally watered down as well as become shorthand for “not included”.

Let me help, because I think you just don't know what bullying is.

Bullying requires engagement. If someone just isn't inclusive of you or doesn't want to be your friend, that's not bullying. That's a person expressing a social preference. It can hurt, and it can even be done in a hurtful way, but it's not bullying. It's just rejection.

Bullies engage and use that engagement to harm. Usually bullies befriend (in order to learn about you and collect info) and THEN reject. This happened to me in a workplace once. When I started, these women were *so* friendly -- they'd invite me to lunch or to parties at their homes, they'd swing by my office to chat, etc. But then they started gossiping about me, using things I'd shared with them (not secrets but just details about my life that they only knew because they'd gone out of their way to befriend me) to talk a bunch of s**t about me. They continued to act friendly to my face and never said anything to indicate to me that they had an issue with me. So I heard about everything second hand from other colleagues. They stopped inviting me to things but then would discuss these events during work meetings or in the hallway outside my office so that I knew I hadn't been invited. They had this way of looking at me and then at each other -- they had clearly decided I wasn't good enough for them and were enjoying how their shared dislike of me made them more of a unit. I think they also liked the feeling of power that came from judging me and finding me wanting. It was affirming for them.

They could have just... not befriended me. I watched them do this with another woman who joined the office after me -- they'd come on really strong and adopt the new person and then turn on her. There was also someone else who joined and they befriended her but didn't turn on her. I guess they decided she was one of them. But this is not just social rejection. It is aggressive behavior and I don't know how to describe it other than to call it bullying. It's the adult version of Mean Girls, the same weird social aggression masked as friendship. It definitely happens.

You sound paranoid. I don't think people are thinking about you as much as you think they are. You are weaving quite a story there in your own mind about the motivations and thoughts and invisible actions of others. Not PP

Anonymous wrote:I’m always dubious when an adult claims they’ve been bullied by another adult. I’m sure it happens on rare occasions, but I tend to think the person claiming to have been bullied is just upset they haven’t been made to feel welcome by a social group.
The meaning of the word bully has been totally watered down as well as become shorthand for “not included”.

+1000

This reminds me of people who will say "Larla yelled at me," and they get all kinds of sympathy, but then it turns out Larla didn't "yell" at all, she just had to say something constructive and the person didn't like it.

Same thing here -- people will use the word "bully" when there is a group of moms who enjoy hanging out at the pool together and have a monthly book club, and they didn't want to invite you. People aren't bullying you just because they don't want to be your friend, and they do want to be friends with others.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm 46 and have literally never met anyone like this, OP. I've lived in Europe and the US, and attended grade schools and universities in multiple countries. I know some comments can be interpreted in many different ways, and I always choose to take what people say ina. constructive manner.

If this keeps happening to you... consider you might be part of the problem, as in: you always gravitate towards the same toxic personalities, or you interpret innocuous comments in negative ways, or you actively do things to warrant criticism. Probably mostly #2, wouldn't you say?

Most people are kind and tolerant. Some of high-strung but well-meaning and definitely not looking to bully anyone. I'm willing to believe a few are bullies... but I haven't met anyone who goes out of their way to be mean.

Not OP but is this comment meant as a specific troll? I can never tell with stuff like this. Are you expressing your real opinion on the subject or did you sit down to write a post that would embody exactly the sort of not chill, not nice OP is referring to?

The part where you accuse OP, a person you do not know at all, of something you couldn't possibly know about her with "Probably mostly #2, wouldn't you say?" (unreal condescension there), but then claim "most people are kind and tolerant"? Chef's kiss, so perfect.

If this was a joke, well done. If it was in earnest, ugh.

PP you replied to. I was being honest, because on DCUM, this is what helps people to change and better themselves. If I met you face to face, I would be more diplomatic. I am generally seen as a polite, gentle person, because I am petite, non-threatening and have a soft voice None of those physical attributes come across online.

And no, I was not being condescending in any way. I genuinely suspect that OP tends to take things too personally, because this is usually what happens.

Well then please let me return the favor: yes, your post was condescending. OP didn't say "this keeps happening to me" or even go into any detail about what she is experiencing. But you jumped right into this authoritative position of telling her what her problem must be, and you said it in a very condescending way.

Also why would living in Europe or your college or grad (I'm assuming that was a typo) experiences be relevant? OP was specifically talking about experiences with fellow moms, almost certainly in the US. I'm sure your study abroad experience was very valuable to you but I'm not sure it will provide you with any extra insight into the experience of the average middle-age American mom.

You sound incredibly insecure. That's probably why you are feeling the need to lash out anonymously on the internet. Not PP.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because of your past you may be coming across as defensive. You may take offensive when people are just joking around.

Nah, I've been just fine for 30 years and have many other friends. It's a them, not me, situation.

This is how people with personality disorders think. Just saying.

+1

Because women truly suck. This site is proof.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm 46 and have literally never met anyone like this, OP. I've lived in Europe and the US, and attended grade schools and universities in multiple countries. I know some comments can be interpreted in many different ways, and I always choose to take what people say ina. constructive manner.

If this keeps happening to you... consider you might be part of the problem, as in: you always gravitate towards the same toxic personalities, or you interpret innocuous comments in negative ways, or you actively do things to warrant criticism. Probably mostly #2, wouldn't you say?

Most people are kind and tolerant. Some of high-strung but well-meaning and definitely not looking to bully anyone. I'm willing to believe a few are bullies... but I haven't met anyone who goes out of their way to be mean.

Not OP but is this comment meant as a specific troll? I can never tell with stuff like this. Are you expressing your real opinion on the subject or did you sit down to write a post that would embody exactly the sort of not chill, not nice OP is referring to?

The part where you accuse OP, a person you do not know at all, of something you couldn't possibly know about her with "Probably mostly #2, wouldn't you say?" (unreal condescension there), but then claim "most people are kind and tolerant"? Chef's kiss, so perfect.

If this was a joke, well done. If it was in earnest, ugh.

I'm not the PP, but it seemed to be in earnest to me -- and I agree with all of it. You sound triggered.

Some seem to think people complaining about fellow parents being mean, signifies they were left out when its often the product of being too included and involved. Some view that as a threat and start bad mouthing you. Like many a post here about PTA parents. As others point out, this is common in sports groups especially when a loud mouth is vying for something.

I have found lots of nice moms in the suburbs.

There is a certain dynamic that all people fall prey to, women maybe more so. I told my girls about this when they hit MS. For some reason our minds are programmed to be atracted to the popular girls. The ones that are pretty and well dressed and standing in a big circle having fun and chatting and laughing. We flock to them like moths to flame. But those girls/women already have friends and a group and an established dynamic. It is hard to break into that. If you look around and find the girls/women who are kind of off to the sides maybe on their own or in a smaller group, that’s probably more fertile ground for you. Some of them might be introverts that just want to be on their own. But some may be just waiting to make a friend.

I’m wondering if you’re flocking to the queen bee group and unconsciously ignoring the silent majority that are the nice, chill moms.

I do think there are some smaller (private?) schools where there is one group that dominates, and that is hard. But if you have a public school with 150 kids per grade, it’s hard to believe that all 150 moms are bullies.

I do not engage with other parents beyond the coordination of our kid's activities and when they are old enough to coordinate themselves I won't even do that. Disengage.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know but I was at a dinner last night with a group of moms and walked away feeling horribly bullied. I haven't felt this bad about a social interaction since high school.

Ugh. I’m sorry. What happened? Were these people you consider friends?

OP, it varies and is luck of the draw. Steer clear of Queen types.

These are folks who are supposed to be friends, though I no longer put them in that category. The dynamic has been trending this way for a while and I'm done.

I'm very comfortable making my own decisions while this group likes to focus on everyone having made the same choices. I've chosen not to dye my grays, go to the same Pilates classes, learn to play mahjong, have the same rules for my tween's phone use, buy the same type of cars or clothes or jewelry, etc. I didn't care to conform in middle school and I'm certainly not in 40s, no matter how you speak to me. I have never criticized any aspect of their appearance or their choices, but here we are. They seem to think that I'm fair game for criticism.

OP, were they always like this though? You say you used to be friends with them but then your choices diverged and they started judging you. Were you conforming before? Were they previously welcoming to people who didn't conform?

IME women like this have always been this way and always will be. I have never been this way and learned a long time ago that I can't really hack it. I don't want to dress the same and do all the same stuff. It feels stifling to me. I'd rather have fewer friends and have to do things on my own more often than be a part of a cohesive group that enforces cohesion through conformity. It's just not for me. It sounds to me like you've outgrown this group and are more comfortable new just being yourself and making your own choices, and they are doing what groups like this do and closing ranks against you because your individuality is a threat to the cohesion of the group.

Our kids are on the same team so we'd all been friendly for a while, though never really a friend group per se. This is the first season I've seen clique behavior really develop and I don't like it. I'm out. I'll keep a couple of 1:1 relationships, but will not be a part of the group.

How is this bullying behavior? Ok so some moms have become closer and hang out beyond just being soccer friends. Are they being rude or mean to u

Sorry hit submit. Are they being rude or mean to you? Or just not inviting you when they hang out outside of soccer? Do they ignore you on purpose or do they just talk amongst themselves and not necessarily include you?

OP expressly said that these women judge her for not dying her hair, following the same exercise regimen, making different parenting choices, etc. I think that counts as "being rude or mean."

Op, some men are MUCH worse and many women are very chill. You will eventually learn this. Everyone thinks they themselves are the cool and kind, if not always inclusive. They will become frustrated or judgmental about somebody and feel the need to spread some judgment/gossip for entertainment, as a way to feign concern, boredom, inner need to inform or because they are simply pissed/jealous/judgy at someone and feel justified to do so.

I think we've all read enough cruel/racist/sexist/ablist posts here to know cruel people exist in parenting communities and they take some pleasure in making others feel bad. It boosts their spirit to bring others down whether behind their back or to their face with snide comments while pretending they are innocent of causing strife. We all may have been guilty of this at least once without ever remembering such behavior. Ethics, as seen in many posts, vary wildly and those with higher moral standards are dragged as autistic black and white thinkers.

There is a defensiveness of you are too black and white or "not everyone needs to be liked and included" as the backlash statement to any social issue, even if the complaint is not about someone wanting to be included but simply not wanting lies or aggression directed at them.

I used to think everyone in our community was easy and we all wanted the best for all the kids, especially in elementary. I still think most of us are like this but I have learned some few are not and some good people have lapses in judgment that hurt others.

Communities are different, schools are different and classes are too so you may end up with a good one or an intolerable one and some people roll and thrive with the gossip and see it as normal life while others see it as an extreme affront to another person's character. Most of us are in the middle. I can't believe all these posters who are blind to bad behaviors have not even had a relative or friend from another community share some story of rude or bad behavior towards other parents. Go read posts about hate towards boys, girls, special needs, kids who are at the top and those at the bottom. Some people cannot handle variety.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm troubled by the fact that you think this is unique and intrinsic to women. What you're describing - a dynamic where women are mean, toxic shrews and men are cool and "chill" - is so regressive and anti-woman that it feels like something you'd hear 20 years ago.

My guess is that you're giving off "I'm not like the other girls!" vibes that other women find offensive and off-putting. I love women and I'm certainly not going to forge a relationship with someone who thinks women suck and are inherently inferior to men.

OP does not claim this is "intrinsic" to women, nor dues she call women "mean, toxic shrews." Thats all your projection.

OP is describing a personal experience where other moms have been competitive or conformist which is not a behavior she notices in men around her. There are multiple explanations for this, including the idea that women tend to be more competitive or harder on each other *because* of internalized misogyny. Nothing OP has said indicates that she thinks women are intrinsically inferior to men, only that she's noticed a behavior among women in her life that is not present in the men and is asking why.

It is a behavior many women have noticed in groups of women, this isn't a new line of inquiry, it's a documented phenomenon, even if you personally have not experienced it.

The irony here is wild. I know this isn't your intent, but you're describing precisely what the OP is doing in this post.

I disagree that's what she's doing. If you read all of OP's posts, she's talking about specific behaviors this group of moms have engaged in that have led to her feeling judged and hurt (behaviors like criticizing her directly for choices like not dying her hair). I also think it's obvious she's not talking about individual women being chill or nice, but about the dynamics between women. She's asking why, when women are in groups together, is it hard for them to just be accepting and tolerant of each other without judgment and competition.

OP could have framed this better but this isn't a novel observation. Many, many women have expressed frustration with the way women interact with each other, and complained about the exact same dynamics OP describes -- enforced conformity, judgment of any deviation, an emphasis on physical appearance and performance of motherhood. I don't think women do any of this because women just intrinsically are bad. I think we do it because we are all participating in the misogynist pastime of constantly measuring and comparing women in order to find them wanting, so that we may criticize and judge them. All women have experienced this. When it happens at the hands of other women it feels like a betrayal, and when it happens at the hands of an entire group of women it is worse. Admitting this is not misogyny. Women participate in the patriarchy every day. Pointing that out is not misogyny.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know but I was at a dinner last night with a group of moms and walked away feeling horribly bullied. I haven't felt this bad about a social interaction since high school.

Ugh. I’m sorry. What happened? Were these people you consider friends?

OP, it varies and is luck of the draw. Steer clear of Queen types.

These are folks who are supposed to be friends, though I no longer put them in that category. The dynamic has been trending this way for a while and I'm done.

I'm very comfortable making my own decisions while this group likes to focus on everyone having made the same choices. I've chosen not to dye my grays, go to the same Pilates classes, learn to play mahjong, have the same rules for my tween's phone use, buy the same type of cars or clothes or jewelry, etc. I didn't care to conform in middle school and I'm certainly not in 40s, no matter how you speak to me. I have never criticized any aspect of their appearance or their choices, but here we are. They seem to think that I'm fair game for criticism.

OP, were they always like this though? You say you used to be friends with them but then your choices diverged and they started judging you. Were you conforming before? Were they previously welcoming to people who didn't conform?

IME women like this have always been this way and always will be. I have never been this way and learned a long time ago that I can't really hack it. I don't want to dress the same and do all the same stuff. It feels stifling to me. I'd rather have fewer friends and have to do things on my own more often than be a part of a cohesive group that enforces cohesion through conformity. It's just not for me. It sounds to me like you've outgrown this group and are more comfortable new just being yourself and making your own choices, and they are doing what groups like this do and closing ranks against you because your individuality is a threat to the cohesion of the group.

Our kids are on the same team so we'd all been friendly for a while, though never really a friend group per se. This is the first season I've seen clique behavior really develop and I don't like it. I'm out. I'll keep a couple of 1:1 relationships, but will not be a part of the group.

How is this bullying behavior? Ok so some moms have become closer and hang out beyond just being soccer friends. Are they being rude or mean to u

Sorry hit submit. Are they being rude or mean to you? Or just not inviting you when they hang out outside of soccer? Do they ignore you on purpose or do they just talk amongst themselves and not necessarily include you?