Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Alarmed by rising failure and remediation rates, professors argue that test-blind policies obscure preparation gaps, leading vulnerable students to struggle in rigorous gateway courses.

https://ucstudentsuccess.org/

That's great news and much needed. Wish they had done so before this year. We're in-state and my DS wanted to go to a UC (he would have gone to any out of his top 4-5 choices). He has a 1550 but wasn't able to submit it because of test-blind. He did not get into any of his top 5 UC choices (he was guaranteed a UC since he was in in the top 9% of CA HS seniors by GPA, but only got into UC Riverside and UC Santa Cruz, which aren't great for his intended major). He is going to a private (to a so-called "new ivy") but we're frustrated by UC's test-blind policy and hearing how they have needed to create remedial sections for math at UC San Diego (where my DS didn't get in despite a 790 in math on the SAT and A in AP calculus). We are happy that it might get better for others.

Are you from an upper middle class area? If so, you likely still would have the same issue due to regional admission. UCs aren’t really made to be solely elite kids. That’s what private schools, like the ones your kid is going to, are for.

Actually, they are supposed to be for the academically elite. Community college, Cal State system, UC System, flagship of the UC system. This isn't a regional thing. It is a high school dependent thing. However so few blacks and Hispanics would be selected for UC Berkeley that UC's look at the HIGH SCHOOL instead of the general applicant pool.

Uh no… the top UCs are still supposed to represent the state. They aren’t just the output of the bay’s private schools. No one but privileged people want this.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Alarmed by rising failure and remediation rates, professors argue that test-blind policies obscure preparation gaps, leading vulnerable students to struggle in rigorous gateway courses.

https://ucstudentsuccess.org/

That's great news and much needed. Wish they had done so before this year. We're in-state and my DS wanted to go to a UC (he would have gone to any out of his top 4-5 choices). He has a 1550 but wasn't able to submit it because of test-blind. He did not get into any of his top 5 UC choices (he was guaranteed a UC since he was in in the top 9% of CA HS seniors by GPA, but only got into UC Riverside and UC Santa Cruz, which aren't great for his intended major). He is going to a private (to a so-called "new ivy") but we're frustrated by UC's test-blind policy and hearing how they have needed to create remedial sections for math at UC San Diego (where my DS didn't get in despite a 790 in math on the SAT and A in AP calculus). We are happy that it might get better for others.

Are you from an upper middle class area? If so, you likely still would have the same issue due to regional admission. UCs aren’t really made to be solely elite kids. That’s what private schools, like the ones your kid is going to, are for.

Actually, they are supposed to be for the academically elite. Community college, Cal State system, UC System, flagship of the UC system. This isn't a regional thing. It is a high school dependent thing. However so few blacks and Hispanics would be selected for UC Berkeley that UC's look at the HIGH SCHOOL instead of the general applicant pool.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"For example, for three consecutive year, 20-30% of UC Berkeley first-semester calculus students who participated in mathematical diagnostic testing displayed severe[b][u] preparation deficits."

Ouch.

How is this going to be fixed by SAT scores if it is the HS math instruction that sucks?

Most likely by admitting fewer unprepared students. Right now UC's admit by high school. The lower SES, URM high schools have the same admissions chances as high performing ones. Presumably the SAT will provide cover to deviate from this and pick more Asian and white students.

This sounds like a lot of extrapolation. The professors aren’t interested in picking and choosing demographics for their classes. They just want students entering Calc 2 who have actually taken and performed, as expected by exams, well in calc 1. Berkeley has an institutional mission to give opportunity to a wide population of California residents, not just the Bay Area and SoCal elites.

What’s really happening is professors do not have the levers necessary to improve the k-12 system, so the only tool they do have is the one standardized exam.

Unfortunately California produces so few well-qualified black and Hispanic students in California public high schools that while the SAT might give them a better, fighting chance, at selecting a decent student, it will never be implemented. The cry of help from faculty and isn't just from the math faculty, it's across all STEM disciplines. This endeavor will run into the inevitable political brick wall and go nowhere. The mission of UC's officially states that Diversity, Equity and Inclusion is the critical component underlying scholarship and research. The UC's will not stray from that mission.

The UC system is a testament that DEI doesn’t have to mean lowering standards, the issue people have is purely political issues from the k-12 system. The UC system is all about DEI, but still most of the professors are white, most of the students are white and Asian, and the rigor is real.

In general, black students are way over talked about in these discussions. California has been bleeding out black families for decades. A lot of the issues stem with Latino majority districts. There’s a whole host of issues unique to that demographic seen across the American southwest

Not true. There are far more Hispanic students than white students. UC's are trying to get Hispanic undergraduate enrollment up to 53%. So far they are up to 30% with increases every year. They have that as the official policy: UC's are to reflect the demographics of the state.

The UC system SHOULD be more hispanic, and over time, it naturally will be. The massive gaps between white and Latino citizens is mostly due to immigration. These gaps are much smaller once you account for higher generational households.

SAT data says otherwise. Hispanics across all income and generational (first, second, third) levels perform worse than the poorest whites and Asians.

Says more about the SAT than anything else. Life outcomes show that the gap closes.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"For example, for three consecutive year, 20-30% of UC Berkeley first-semester calculus students who participated in mathematical diagnostic testing displayed severe[b][u] preparation deficits."

Ouch.

How is this going to be fixed by SAT scores if it is the HS math instruction that sucks?

Most likely by admitting fewer unprepared students. Right now UC's admit by high school. The lower SES, URM high schools have the same admissions chances as high performing ones. Presumably the SAT will provide cover to deviate from this and pick more Asian and white students.

This sounds like a lot of extrapolation. The professors aren’t interested in picking and choosing demographics for their classes. They just want students entering Calc 2 who have actually taken and performed, as expected by exams, well in calc 1. Berkeley has an institutional mission to give opportunity to a wide population of California residents, not just the Bay Area and SoCal elites.

What’s really happening is professors do not have the levers necessary to improve the k-12 system, so the only tool they do have is the one standardized exam.

Unfortunately California produces so few well-qualified black and Hispanic students in California public high schools that while the SAT might give them a better, fighting chance, at selecting a decent student, it will never be implemented. The cry of help from faculty and isn't just from the math faculty, it's across all STEM disciplines. This endeavor will run into the inevitable political brick wall and go nowhere. The mission of UC's officially states that Diversity, Equity and Inclusion is the critical component underlying scholarship and research. The UC's will not stray from that mission.

The UC system is a testament that DEI doesn’t have to mean lowering standards, the issue people have is purely political issues from the k-12 system. The UC system is all about DEI, but still most of the professors are white, most of the students are white and Asian, and the rigor is real.

In general, black students are way over talked about in these discussions. California has been bleeding out black families for decades. A lot of the issues stem with Latino majority districts. There’s a whole host of issues unique to that demographic seen across the American southwest

Not true. There are far more Hispanic students than white students. UC's are trying to get Hispanic undergraduate enrollment up to 53%. So far they are up to 30% with increases every year. They have that as the official policy: UC's are to reflect the demographics of the state.

The UC system SHOULD be more hispanic, and over time, it naturally will be. The massive gaps between white and Latino citizens is mostly due to immigration. These gaps are much smaller once you account for higher generational households.

SAT data says otherwise. Hispanics across all income and generational (first, second, third) levels perform worse than the poorest whites and Asians.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Alarmed by rising failure and remediation rates, professors argue that test-blind policies obscure preparation gaps, leading vulnerable students to struggle in rigorous gateway courses.

https://ucstudentsuccess.org/

That's great news and much needed. Wish they had done so before this year. We're in-state and my DS wanted to go to a UC (he would have gone to any out of his top 4-5 choices). He has a 1550 but wasn't able to submit it because of test-blind. He did not get into any of his top 5 UC choices (he was guaranteed a UC since he was in in the top 9% of CA HS seniors by GPA, but only got into UC Riverside and UC Santa Cruz, which aren't great for his intended major). He is going to a private (to a so-called "new ivy") but we're frustrated by UC's test-blind policy and hearing how they have needed to create remedial sections for math at UC San Diego (where my DS didn't get in despite a 790 in math on the SAT and A in AP calculus). We are happy that it might get better for others.

Are you from an upper middle class area? If so, you likely still would have the same issue due to regional admission. UCs aren’t really made to be solely elite kids. That’s what private schools, like the ones your kid is going to, are for.

Anonymous wrote:Alarmed by rising failure and remediation rates, professors argue that test-blind policies obscure preparation gaps, leading vulnerable students to struggle in rigorous gateway courses.

https://ucstudentsuccess.org/

That's great news and much needed. Wish they had done so before this year. We're in-state and my DS wanted to go to a UC (he would have gone to any out of his top 4-5 choices). He has a 1550 but wasn't able to submit it because of test-blind. He did not get into any of his top 5 UC choices (he was guaranteed a UC since he was in in the top 9% of CA HS seniors by GPA, but only got into UC Riverside and UC Santa Cruz, which aren't great for his intended major). He is going to a private (to a so-called "new ivy") but we're frustrated by UC's test-blind policy and hearing how they have needed to create remedial sections for math at UC San Diego (where my DS didn't get in despite a 790 in math on the SAT and A in AP calculus). We are happy that it might get better for others.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"For example, for three consecutive year, 20-30% of UC Berkeley first-semester calculus students who participated in mathematical diagnostic testing displayed severe[u] preparation deficits."

Ouch.

How is this going to be fixed by SAT scores if it is the HS math instruction that sucks?

Most likely by admitting fewer unprepared students. [b]Right now UC's admit by high school. The lower SES, URM high schools have the same admissions chances as high performing ones. Presumably the SAT will provide cover to deviate from this and pick more Asian and white students.

UCs do not admit by high school. They do admit proportionally by region to a certain extent which has the effect of capping admits from high schools in high performing areas like the bay area and parts of SoCal. Also, for highly impacted majors the regional impact is reduced so fewer kids from low SES areas end up in majors like engineering and CS.

You are so very, very wrong. UC's admit by high school. You are compared to your high school cohort. This is the end run around Prop 209. I'm guessing you aren't married to a California public high school counselor?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"For example, for three consecutive year, 20-30% of UC Berkeley first-semester calculus students who participated in mathematical diagnostic testing displayed severe[b][u] preparation deficits."

Ouch.

How is this going to be fixed by SAT scores if it is the HS math instruction that sucks?

Most likely by admitting fewer unprepared students. Right now UC's admit by high school. The lower SES, URM high schools have the same admissions chances as high performing ones. Presumably the SAT will provide cover to deviate from this and pick more Asian and white students.

This sounds like a lot of extrapolation. The professors aren’t interested in picking and choosing demographics for their classes. They just want students entering Calc 2 who have actually taken and performed, as expected by exams, well in calc 1. Berkeley has an institutional mission to give opportunity to a wide population of California residents, not just the Bay Area and SoCal elites.

What’s really happening is professors do not have the levers necessary to improve the k-12 system, so the only tool they do have is the one standardized exam.

Unfortunately California produces so few well-qualified black and Hispanic students in California public high schools that while the SAT might give them a better, fighting chance, at selecting a decent student, it will never be implemented. The cry of help from faculty and isn't just from the math faculty, it's across all STEM disciplines. This endeavor will run into the inevitable political brick wall and go nowhere. The mission of UC's officially states that Diversity, Equity and Inclusion is the critical component underlying scholarship and research. The UC's will not stray from that mission.

The UC system is a testament that DEI doesn’t have to mean lowering standards, the issue people have is purely political issues from the k-12 system. The UC system is all about DEI, but still most of the professors are white, most of the students are white and Asian, and the rigor is real.

In general, black students are way over talked about in these discussions. California has been bleeding out black families for decades. A lot of the issues stem with Latino majority districts. There’s a whole host of issues unique to that demographic seen across the American southwest

Not true. There are far more Hispanic students than white students. UC's are trying to get Hispanic undergraduate enrollment up to 53%. So far they are up to 30% with increases every year. They have that as the official policy: UC's are to reflect the demographics of the state.

The UC system SHOULD be more hispanic, and over time, it naturally will be. The massive gaps between white and Latino citizens is mostly due to immigration. These gaps are much smaller once you account for higher generational households.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"For example, for three consecutive year, 20-30% of UC Berkeley first-semester calculus students who participated in mathematical diagnostic testing displayed severe[u] preparation deficits."

Ouch.

How is this going to be fixed by SAT scores if it is the HS math instruction that sucks?

Most likely by admitting fewer unprepared students. [b]Right now UC's admit by high school. The lower SES, URM high schools have the same admissions chances as high performing ones. Presumably the SAT will provide cover to deviate from this and pick more Asian and white students.

UCs do not admit by high school. They do admit proportionally by region to a certain extent which has the effect of capping admits from high schools in high performing areas like the bay area and parts of SoCal. Also, for highly impacted majors the regional impact is reduced so fewer kids from low SES areas end up in majors like engineering and CS.

280 is a really paltry number for the size of UC. This is simply rage bait for anti CA MAGAs.

1. UCs require placement tests, so the unprepared students aren’t walking into Calculas.
2. UCs focus on conceptual math and don’t allow calculators which is the exact opposite of what is happening in high school. You can get a 750+ on the math SAT, a 5 on AP Calculus, score high enough to place into Calculus and still struggle. This is great and I’m glad they do it this way.
3. Some UCs have math professors and TAs with such strong accents that no one outside their region can understand them.
4. Math courses are weeder courses for STEM and economics. You have top students and cheaters at the top but then #2 /#3 drop too many to the bottom. The school wants a bell curve for distribution but they have a K.

The reality in CA is that there isn’t a bell curve if your class is representative of the geography, race and socioeconomic groups in CA. UCs could reinstate the SAT but that doesn’t mean that they would scrap the geographic and socioeconomic goals. Using the SAT would not reopen seats for high performing Asians and Whites.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"For example, for three consecutive year, 20-30% of UC Berkeley first-semester calculus students who participated in mathematical diagnostic testing displayed severe[b][u] preparation deficits."

Ouch.

How is this going to be fixed by SAT scores if it is the HS math instruction that sucks?

Most likely by admitting fewer unprepared students. Right now UC's admit by high school. The lower SES, URM high schools have the same admissions chances as high performing ones. Presumably the SAT will provide cover to deviate from this and pick more Asian and white students.

This sounds like a lot of extrapolation. The professors aren’t interested in picking and choosing demographics for their classes. They just want students entering Calc 2 who have actually taken and performed, as expected by exams, well in calc 1. Berkeley has an institutional mission to give opportunity to a wide population of California residents, not just the Bay Area and SoCal elites.

What’s really happening is professors do not have the levers necessary to improve the k-12 system, so the only tool they do have is the one standardized exam.

Unfortunately California produces so few well-qualified black and Hispanic students in California public high schools that while the SAT might give them a better, fighting chance, at selecting a decent student, it will never be implemented. The cry of help from faculty and isn't just from the math faculty, it's across all STEM disciplines. This endeavor will run into the inevitable political brick wall and go nowhere. The mission of UC's officially states that Diversity, Equity and Inclusion is the critical component underlying scholarship and research. The UC's will not stray from that mission.

The UC system is a testament that DEI doesn’t have to mean lowering standards, the issue people have is purely political issues from the k-12 system. The UC system is all about DEI, but still most of the professors are white, most of the students are white and Asian, and the rigor is real.

In general, black students are way over talked about in these discussions. California has been bleeding out black families for decades. A lot of the issues stem with Latino majority districts. There’s a whole host of issues unique to that demographic seen across the American southwest

Not true. There are far more Hispanic students than white students. UC's are trying to get Hispanic undergraduate enrollment up to 53%. So far they are up to 30% with increases every year. They have that as the official policy: UC's are to reflect the demographics of the state.

So at least 60% of students are white and Asian, no?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"For example, for three consecutive year, 20-30% of UC Berkeley first-semester calculus students who participated in mathematical diagnostic testing displayed severe[b][u] preparation deficits."

Ouch.

How is this going to be fixed by SAT scores if it is the HS math instruction that sucks?

Most likely by admitting fewer unprepared students. Right now UC's admit by high school. The lower SES, URM high schools have the same admissions chances as high performing ones. Presumably the SAT will provide cover to deviate from this and pick more Asian and white students.

This sounds like a lot of extrapolation. The professors aren’t interested in picking and choosing demographics for their classes. They just want students entering Calc 2 who have actually taken and performed, as expected by exams, well in calc 1. Berkeley has an institutional mission to give opportunity to a wide population of California residents, not just the Bay Area and SoCal elites.

What’s really happening is professors do not have the levers necessary to improve the k-12 system, so the only tool they do have is the one standardized exam.

Unfortunately California produces so few well-qualified black and Hispanic students in California public high schools that while the SAT might give them a better, fighting chance, at selecting a decent student, it will never be implemented. The cry of help from faculty and isn't just from the math faculty, it's across all STEM disciplines. This endeavor will run into the inevitable political brick wall and go nowhere. The mission of UC's officially states that Diversity, Equity and Inclusion is the critical component underlying scholarship and research. The UC's will not stray from that mission.

The UC system is a testament that DEI doesn’t have to mean lowering standards, the issue people have is purely political issues from the k-12 system. The UC system is all about DEI, but still most of the professors are white, most of the students are white and Asian, and the rigor is real.

In general, black students are way over talked about in these discussions. California has been bleeding out black families for decades. A lot of the issues stem with Latino majority districts. There’s a whole host of issues unique to that demographic seen across the American southwest

Not true. There are far more Hispanic students than white students. UC's are trying to get Hispanic undergraduate enrollment up to 53%. So far they are up to 30% with increases every year. They have that as the official policy: UC's are to reflect the demographics of the state.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The SAT is a racist test. There is no reason to go back to it.

The SAT is the best measure to identify and elevate smart and brilliant minority kids who are otherwised overlooked and ignored by test optional.

Test optional specifically benefits mediocre wealthy students of all colors and races.

Can you explain how they’re overlooked? If you don’t have good grades, you are not qualified.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"For example, for three consecutive year, 20-30% of UC Berkeley first-semester calculus students who participated in mathematical diagnostic testing displayed severe[b][u] preparation deficits."

Ouch.

How is this going to be fixed by SAT scores if it is the HS math instruction that sucks?

Most likely by admitting fewer unprepared students. Right now UC's admit by high school. The lower SES, URM high schools have the same admissions chances as high performing ones. Presumably the SAT will provide cover to deviate from this and pick more Asian and white students.

This sounds like a lot of extrapolation. The professors aren’t interested in picking and choosing demographics for their classes. They just want students entering Calc 2 who have actually taken and performed, as expected by exams, well in calc 1. Berkeley has an institutional mission to give opportunity to a wide population of California residents, not just the Bay Area and SoCal elites.

What’s really happening is professors do not have the levers necessary to improve the k-12 system, so the only tool they do have is the one standardized exam.

Unfortunately California produces so few well-qualified black and Hispanic students in California public high schools that while the SAT might give them a better, fighting chance, at selecting a decent student, it will never be implemented. The cry of help from faculty and isn't just from the math faculty, it's across all STEM disciplines. This endeavor will run into the inevitable political brick wall and go nowhere. The mission of UC's officially states that Diversity, Equity and Inclusion is the critical component underlying scholarship and research. The UC's will not stray from that mission.

The UC system is a testament that DEI doesn’t have to mean lowering standards, the issue people have is purely political issues from the k-12 system. The UC system is all about DEI, but still most of the professors are white, most of the students are white and Asian, and the rigor is real.

In general, black students are way over talked about in these discussions. California has been bleeding out black families for decades. A lot of the issues stem with Latino majority districts. There’s a whole host of issues unique to that demographic seen across the American southwest

Anonymous wrote:The SAT is a racist test. There is no reason to go back to it.

The SAT is the best measure to identify and elevate smart and brilliant minority kids who are otherwised overlooked and ignored by test optional.

Test optional specifically benefits mediocre wealthy students of all colors and races.