Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:both. But I have noticed it usually takes until 3 kids+ for parents to realize "for real" it's not them. Parents of 2 or 1 kid have an outblown sense of their impact esp. if they don't have a harder to parent kid.

This. Parenting does play a role, but some kids are just difficult and problematic. Mothers with 3+ kids all know this. If you have at least 3 kids, chances are high at least one of them is more difficult than the others. While they may not be a total train wreck, it definitely enforces that how you kids behave and turn out isn’t all because of your parenting and influence.

You have this backwards. Parenting plays the biggest role in the kids who are "difficult and problematic." That's the difference between very good parents and mediocre or bad parents.

Most parents can raise an easy kid with few challenges. The key there is just not to screw it up (which even some parents can't manage). But you don't have to *work* that hard at it if the kid is just kind of naturally flexible and easy going with no special needs or learning challenges.

But some kids have real challenges and then parents have to work at it, and it's hard. And if you do it well, the kids with challenges can be great. If you do it poorly, it can in fact be a total train wreck. The job is harder and not everyone is up to the task. And this is what people are talking about when they say they thought they understood what it meant to be a good parent, and then had an additional kid who had more challenges. That's when you *really* find out what it is to be a good parent, when you realize the level of patience, emotional maturity, creativity, dedication, and faith it takes to to raise some kids to adulthood.

When I encounter a parent who says "oh parenting can only do so much, so kids are just problematic," that's when I know I've encountered a parent who just isn't up to the task.

Some kids are difficult and problematic no matter how good the parenting is. What you end up seeing is “the best” that kid can be. It may seem pretty bad to you as an outsider, but it could be so much worse with poor parents.

One of my good friends has a very difficult kid. They work so hard for him: therapy, parenting support, psychological treatment, on top of his school work. He still gets in a lot of trouble and isn’t passing all his classes. I have no doubt without such dedicated parents he would be a drug addict and in juvy or jail right now.

Yes but this is proving my point. Without dedicated, hardworking parents, that kid would be much worse off. Instead he's just a troublemaker with some academic problems. Would his parents say "oh well, parenting really only impacts kids around the margins"? Or would they acknowledge that the work they put in is the difference between their kid being a functioning (if challenged) member of society, or a criminal? The work they are doing is essential and it's not easy.

It's both nature and nurture but parents can have an enormous impact on a child. Anyone who tells you otherwise is generally trying to justify their own ambivalence about parenting.

Yes, but someone that doesn’t know the parent or kid well (like OP) assumes the kid is bad because their parents have poor parenting skills. And their own kids are amazing because they are the best parents- when then it’s not exactly how it works.

Anonymous wrote:I once heard someone say that people either flee from the dysfunction that is present within their family or they lean into it. That’s what causes the difference that you’re seeing.

Anonymous wrote:DH and I were "golden" children who went to the best schools, made money, became famous in our respective fields. Our first child is off the charts brilliant but ASD, aggressive and has numerous health problems. His childhood has been something that most DCUM parents (and I say "most" because *thank you* SN forum and there is a huge spectrum on this board) have never dreamed of. I make my living being clever and an out of the box thinker but nothing has compared to trying to help DS. He will always lead a different life. And DH and I have a second child who is not such an outlier but as we have "parenting on hard mode" (shall I say expert mode, honestly?) it is a challenge to balance it all and be human.

I have lots of first-world problems in my professional life, but I have been reading DCUM for 10+ years. I simply and more and more amazed and how lucky people are with their children. May you never need to visit a psychiatric hospital for your elementary school aged child. And may you never judge me for having to have had to do so. May you never have to worry that your child who weights 35 lbs could hurt someone and fear sending them to school.

It's been a hard road, but I'm delighted to be the Ivy professor who gives your child the guidance to make it to the next level. It's what's keeping me sane in my own personal fate, which, cruel as it seems often, is nothing like that of parents watching their children die of cancer. There are no guarantees on this Earth.

And to those of you who are still quick to judge in middle age, all I can say is that probably haven't learned much. I hope you have spent the spare time the world has given you without life sh*tting on you on some pretty seriously good work for the world. Tell us about eradicating Polio or a poem you wrote that kept a political prisoner alive or a nursing home population that finds new meaning. Or a rainforest you are saving or documenting or both. Because otherwise please do not talk to me unless it is to offer to take DS for care for a week. (I am fine if you are just chilling, or life has dealt you shitty cards, but if you are judging me, come prepared to play on karma and metaphysics front or stay home.) I'm still trying to cure cancer, but some weeks it is hard with a child who threatens to kill you when asked to do his homework.

Thanks OP for this topic.

Anonymous wrote:4 kids. All good, even great. But man my husband and I have worked hard. And we have put in time. Nature trumps but we see it as our job to nurture them to be good citizens. I'm glad it hasn't been super easy so I have appreciation for the end result. Last one is in college. And as we come to the end of our parenting job we enjoy spending time with them so we feel "successful".

Anonymous wrote:I have four kids. Three are in various places in the spectrum. My oldest is incredibly difficult and has been since he was a baby. Of course, I didn’t know it because he was my oldest. I believed what everyone told me ie. that I was a terrible parent. But everything from getting him to sleep through the night to toilet training to homework to learning to drive to interviewing for a job has been a huge challenge.
On a positive note, it’s made me kind of a super parent to my younger kids. I took two weeks off to teach my other kids to toilet train, and they got it in a day and we got to just have fun the rest of the time. I used the tricks I figured out to help my oldest do okay on the HSPT and the SAT with my younger kids, and they ended up with scholarships to high school and college.
But yeah. A difficult kid is a difficult kid. And there is no getting past the idea that maybe you are just a terrible mother.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:both. But I have noticed it usually takes until 3 kids+ for parents to realize "for real" it's not them. Parents of 2 or 1 kid have an outblown sense of their impact esp. if they don't have a harder to parent kid.

This. Parenting does play a role, but some kids are just difficult and problematic. Mothers with 3+ kids all know this. If you have at least 3 kids, chances are high at least one of them is more difficult than the others. While they may not be a total train wreck, it definitely enforces that how you kids behave and turn out isn’t all because of your parenting and influence.

You have this backwards. Parenting plays the biggest role in the kids who are "difficult and problematic." That's the difference between very good parents and mediocre or bad parents.

Most parents can raise an easy kid with few challenges. The key there is just not to screw it up (which even some parents can't manage). But you don't have to *work* that hard at it if the kid is just kind of naturally flexible and easy going with no special needs or learning challenges.

But some kids have real challenges and then parents have to work at it, and it's hard. And if you do it well, the kids with challenges can be great. If you do it poorly, it can in fact be a total train wreck. The job is harder and not everyone is up to the task. And this is what people are talking about when they say they thought they understood what it meant to be a good parent, and then had an additional kid who had more challenges. That's when you *really* find out what it is to be a good parent, when you realize the level of patience, emotional maturity, creativity, dedication, and faith it takes to to raise some kids to adulthood.

When I encounter a parent who says "oh parenting can only do so much, so kids are just problematic," that's when I know I've encountered a parent who just isn't up to the task.

Some kids are difficult and problematic no matter how good the parenting is. What you end up seeing is “the best” that kid can be. It may seem pretty bad to you as an outsider, but it could be so much worse with poor parents.

One of my good friends has a very difficult kid. They work so hard for him: therapy, parenting support, psychological treatment, on top of his school work. He still gets in a lot of trouble and isn’t passing all his classes. I have no doubt without such dedicated parents he would be a drug addict and in juvy or jail right now.

Yes but this is proving my point. Without dedicated, hardworking parents, that kid would be much worse off. Instead he's just a troublemaker with some academic problems. Would his parents say "oh well, parenting really only impacts kids around the margins"? Or would they acknowledge that the work they put in is the difference between their kid being a functioning (if challenged) member of society, or a criminal? The work they are doing is essential and it's not easy.

It's both nature and nurture but parents can have an enormous impact on a child. Anyone who tells you otherwise is generally trying to justify their own ambivalence about parenting.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:both. But I have noticed it usually takes until 3 kids+ for parents to realize "for real" it's not them. Parents of 2 or 1 kid have an outblown sense of their impact esp. if they don't have a harder to parent kid.

This. Parenting does play a role, but some kids are just difficult and problematic. Mothers with 3+ kids all know this. If you have at least 3 kids, chances are high at least one of them is more difficult than the others. While they may not be a total train wreck, it definitely enforces that how you kids behave and turn out isn’t all because of your parenting and influence.

You have this backwards. Parenting plays the biggest role in the kids who are "difficult and problematic." That's the difference between very good parents and mediocre or bad parents.

Most parents can raise an easy kid with few challenges. The key there is just not to screw it up (which even some parents can't manage). But you don't have to *work* that hard at it if the kid is just kind of naturally flexible and easy going with no special needs or learning challenges.

But some kids have real challenges and then parents have to work at it, and it's hard. And if you do it well, the kids with challenges can be great. If you do it poorly, it can in fact be a total train wreck. The job is harder and not everyone is up to the task. And this is what people are talking about when they say they thought they understood what it meant to be a good parent, and then had an additional kid who had more challenges. That's when you *really* find out what it is to be a good parent, when you realize the level of patience, emotional maturity, creativity, dedication, and faith it takes to to raise some kids to adulthood.

When I encounter a parent who says "oh parenting can only do so much, so kids are just problematic," that's when I know I've encountered a parent who just isn't up to the task.

Some kids are difficult and problematic no matter how good the parenting is. What you end up seeing is “the best” that kid can be. It may seem pretty bad to you as an outsider, but it could be so much worse with poor parents.

One of my good friends has a very difficult kid. They work so hard for him: therapy, parenting support, psychological treatment, on top of his school work. He still gets in a lot of trouble and isn’t passing all his classes. I have no doubt without such dedicated parents he would be a drug addict and in juvy or jail right now.

I really appreciate this. My kids are great kids but have a couple really significant struggles. One has a pretty limited diet despite YEARS of feeding therapy, working out butts off to do everything “right”. And sometimes it’s discouraging that we can’t go to many restaurants and I still have a lot of worries about how their social life will be affected by this. But they are a healthy weight with no nutritional deficiencies and have a food in every food group. I’m in some groups of children who have the same eating issues (ARFID) and it helps me realize these are huge wins. Many of those parents are also trying their best- they are posting and gathering ideas and trying all sorts of things. It’s just a good reminder to have some perspective- I hope the years of interventions HAVE made a difference! We will never really know. But I do know before we got professional help we were definitely making things worse for this child by trying to do the things that worked for us as typical eaters growing up. So I think we easily could have continued down the path of making things worse instead of better.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's nature and nurture. I also think sometimes parents are well suited to their kids natural personalities and other times not, and when there is conflict, it can all go wrong.

But I also think that people who are more flexible and adaptable tend to make better parents in general, because this enables them to be the parent their kids need. Then you don't have to just get lucky with kids suited to your personality, because you have the skills to make it work with any kids.

I completely agree with this. I am rather rigid by nature, and belatedly realized that my kids are the worse for it. They're good people - they're all young adults now and they're law-abiding and kind -- but the oldest is struggling with his mental health (recent college grad, no FT job, worried about the future of the US), middle is inattentive ADHD and underemployed. I think if I had modeled more flexibility and adaptability for them, they would be struggling less.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:both. But I have noticed it usually takes until 3 kids+ for parents to realize "for real" it's not them. Parents of 2 or 1 kid have an outblown sense of their impact esp. if they don't have a harder to parent kid.

This. Parenting does play a role, but some kids are just difficult and problematic. Mothers with 3+ kids all know this. If you have at least 3 kids, chances are high at least one of them is more difficult than the others. While they may not be a total train wreck, it definitely enforces that how you kids behave and turn out isn’t all because of your parenting and influence.

You have this backwards. Parenting plays the biggest role in the kids who are "difficult and problematic." That's the difference between very good parents and mediocre or bad parents.

Most parents can raise an easy kid with few challenges. The key there is just not to screw it up (which even some parents can't manage). But you don't have to *work* that hard at it if the kid is just kind of naturally flexible and easy going with no special needs or learning challenges.

But some kids have real challenges and then parents have to work at it, and it's hard. And if you do it well, the kids with challenges can be great. If you do it poorly, it can in fact be a total train wreck. The job is harder and not everyone is up to the task. And this is what people are talking about when they say they thought they understood what it meant to be a good parent, and then had an additional kid who had more challenges. That's when you *really* find out what it is to be a good parent, when you realize the level of patience, emotional maturity, creativity, dedication, and faith it takes to to raise some kids to adulthood.

When I encounter a parent who says "oh parenting can only do so much, so kids are just problematic," that's when I know I've encountered a parent who just isn't up to the task.

Some kids are difficult and problematic no matter how good the parenting is. What you end up seeing is “the best” that kid can be. It may seem pretty bad to you as an outsider, but it could be so much worse with poor parents.

One of my good friends has a very difficult kid. They work so hard for him: therapy, parenting support, psychological treatment, on top of his school work. He still gets in a lot of trouble and isn’t passing all his classes. I have no doubt without such dedicated parents he would be a drug addict and in juvy or jail right now.

Anonymous wrote:Since becoming a parent, the one thing that I have completely changed my mind on, and about which I have no doubts, is that there is very little correlation between parenting quality and child behavior.

You have the privilege of having three easy children.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:both. But I have noticed it usually takes until 3 kids+ for parents to realize "for real" it's not them. Parents of 2 or 1 kid have an outblown sense of their impact esp. if they don't have a harder to parent kid.

This. Parenting does play a role, but some kids are just difficult and problematic. Mothers with 3+ kids all know this. If you have at least 3 kids, chances are high at least one of them is more difficult than the others. While they may not be a total train wreck, it definitely enforces that how you kids behave and turn out isn’t all because of your parenting and influence.

You have this backwards. Parenting plays the biggest role in the kids who are "difficult and problematic." That's the difference between very good parents and mediocre or bad parents.

Most parents can raise an easy kid with few challenges. The key there is just not to screw it up (which even some parents can't manage). But you don't have to *work* that hard at it if the kid is just kind of naturally flexible and easy going with no special needs or learning challenges.

But some kids have real challenges and then parents have to work at it, and it's hard. And if you do it well, the kids with challenges can be great. If you do it poorly, it can in fact be a total train wreck. The job is harder and not everyone is up to the task. And this is what people are talking about when they say they thought they understood what it meant to be a good parent, and then had an additional kid who had more challenges. That's when you *really* find out what it is to be a good parent, when you realize the level of patience, emotional maturity, creativity, dedication, and faith it takes to to raise some kids to adulthood.

When I encounter a parent who says "oh parenting can only do so much, so kids are just problematic," that's when I know I've encountered a parent who just isn't up to the task.

Some kids are difficult and problematic no matter how good the parenting is. What you end up seeing is “the best” that kid can be. It may seem pretty bad to you as an outsider, but it could be so much worse with poor parents.

One of my good friends has a very difficult kid. They work so hard for him: therapy, parenting support, psychological treatment, on top of his school work. He still gets in a lot of trouble and isn’t passing all his classes. I have no doubt without such dedicated parents he would be a drug addict and in juvy or jail right now.