Anonymous wrote:I've had to make this decision twice with my current ninth grader and sixth grader. And speaking to various middle school math teachers, they all agreed that doing algebra and sixth or even seventh grade is not a great idea. The issue so much is not algebra one, but that young brains are not developed enough for the abstract concepts in algebra II.

Pre-algebra teaches key concepts not offered in math 7H. They have changed all the naming conventions for the math classes, but there is a gap if you don't take pre-algebra.

My eldest took algebra honors in eighth grade and is taking geometry honors in ninth. As in both. He says it's a touch easy, but that's okay because it allows him to focus on the humanities classes which are harder for him.

Good grief! There are plenty of young brains that are perfectly developed and ready for this acceleration. Brains don't "age" the way you seem to think. The real issues for acceleration are that the kid may not have enough natural aptitude in math, the kid may have foundational holes, or the kid might not even like math that much.

My kid sailed through algebra I in 4th, Algebra II in 6th, and AP Calculus in 8th with zero issues. I'll have to go back and tell him that his brain wasn't "old" enough to handle the abstractions.

I've had to make this decision twice with my current ninth grader and sixth grader. And speaking to various middle school math teachers, they all agreed that doing algebra and sixth or even seventh grade is not a great idea. The issue so much is not algebra one, but that young brains are not developed enough for the abstract concepts in algebra II.

Pre-algebra teaches key concepts not offered in math 7H. They have changed all the naming conventions for the math classes, but there is a gap if you don't take pre-algebra.

My eldest took algebra honors in eighth grade and is taking geometry honors in ninth. As in both. He says it's a touch easy, but that's okay because it allows him to focus on the humanities classes which are harder for him.

Anonymous wrote:Still waiting for details on the percent of the 7th grade algebra cohort that drops down to a lower track after reaching algebra II.....

If the argument is that FCPS shouldn't be encouraging 6th grade Algebra, because the 7th grade algebra cohort was already struggling, then there should be more details or data.

Until this year there were less then 30 kids taking Algebra 1 before 7th grade, the sample size is low. There were few hundred who took Geometry in the summer to accelerate.

I don’t think that I have seen any data on kids grades in pretty much any class, never mind poor grades. FCPS doesn’t release that info. All we have to go on is anecdotal cases reported by teachers on this board. And there are Teachers posting that they have kids in A2H in 9th and 10th grade that are struggling who had B’s and C’s in A1H and Geometry. That tells us that there are 6th grade A1H kids, Summer Geometry kids, and 7th grade A1H kids who are not earning A’s in A1H and Geometry. You can argue that a B is a fine grade, and I do think a B is a fine grade, but maybe it is less of a fine grade when you have accelerated a kid by a year or 2 and they are earning a B. And those B’s in A1H and Geometry, or worse, are turning into lower grades in A2H because the kids don’t understand the earlier math.

I know my sons friends who took A1H in 7th grade and are in Geometry and are working hard to earn Bs. They are smart kids and they are putting in a lot of effort. The classes are challenging for them. Would they have been better off taking math 7H in 7th grade and then A1H? Probably. Their parents choose A1H and choose Geometry Honors and will probably choose A2H next year. The ones I know with Bs don’t love math, I am not sure why they took this math. It is not easy for them and they don’t enjoy the class but it was available and they meet the standards, so they took it.

Not my kid, not my call. My kid loves math and has had an easy time in A1H and GeoH. I suspect A2H is not going to be an issue. They compete in math competitions and enjoy math. Interesting, his friends that accelerated in math are not taking any APs in Freshman year of HS, that is seen as a leap by their parents. So accelerating in Social Studies and Computer Science is too much. Maybe the AP in front feels different then accelerating math by a year, who knows. I just find it interesting that they willing o accelerate in math but see similar paths forward in classes their kids find easier as not doable.

Anonymous wrote:Still waiting for details on the percent of the 7th grade algebra cohort that drops down to a lower track after reaching algebra II.....

If the argument is that FCPS shouldn't be encouraging 6th grade Algebra, because the 7th grade algebra cohort was already struggling, then there should be more details or data.

The data is there, just not possible to post due to backlash from FCPS Admin. It has to come from a FOIA request from a parent.

Do school teachers provide suggestions based on the data they have to help parents decide whether to push the kids to Algebra 1 HR?

Still waiting for details on the percent of the 7th grade algebra cohort that drops down to a lower track after reaching algebra II.....

If the argument is that FCPS shouldn't be encouraging 6th grade Algebra, because the 7th grade algebra cohort was already struggling, then there should be more details or data.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would absolutely not, I've heard it's a giant clusterf*** this year. Little brains aren't wired for Algebra in 6th grade. We are waiting.

Why do you think 6th grade brains aren't wired for algebra? Did you read an article or study supporting your opinion?

That's great that you recognize that your child's brain isn't wired for Algebra in 6th and have the option to wait. It's also great that the many kids whose brains are wired for Algebra in 6th have the opportunity to take it. Everyone wins here!

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Anonymous wrote:Bored or great at memorizing procedures. If you look at FCPS longitudinal data regarding student enrollment in mathematics, far too many students who accelerate and take Algebra earlier than 8th grade fall back and take a less rigorous path once they reach Algebra 2. But go ahead and tell me “not your child”. Hyper-acceleration in mathematics is detrimental to students, but apparently FCPS leadership doesn’t see it this way.

Can you share a link to this? Or is this internal info only?

The data is internal, but I am sure it can be acquired through FOIA. Decisions are being made in FCPS without taking this data into account.

Since you're privy to the information: What does this less rigorous path look like? Is it Honors Algebra I in 7th, Honors Geometry in 8th, regular or Honors Algebra II in 9th, regular pre-calculus in 10th, calculus AB in 11th, and then something else? Or are they not taking calculus at all? Did they have bad grades in Algebra II? What percent of the kids in the 7th grade algebra I cohort didn't take Calculus BC in 11th grade?

Teachers on the board have said that they had plenty of 9th graders is A2H who earned Cs and had started the class having earned Bs and Cs in A1H and Geometry. People want to dismiss those accounts but they are out there.

But this is a meaningless anecdote if you don't quantify how many is "plenty." Are these teachers saying that half of their 9th grade A2H students are getting Cs and did throughout? 25%? 10%? What percent are struggling? Also, what percent have earned As throughout? What percent took Calc BC in 11th and earned As in every math class through Calculus?

Then, the next obvious question is what FCPS should do with any of this data. If some small fraction of the accelerated kids are struggling, but another fraction is knocking it out of the park, would you restrict access to everyone? Would you gatekeep the accelerated track more strongly (and by doing so prevent some kids who would have been successful from accessing the acceleration)? No matter how you try to spin things, a lot of kids are perfectly successful on the accelerated track. Should they be denied that opportunity because some kids aren't ready?

IME once kids are tracked to algebra 1 honors they stay honors unless they get a D or F. The information requires some digging (there’s not a report I can pull easily for all kids in my class to see prior math grades that I’m aware of), but when I’ve gone looking in past years it feels like 60% of honors algebra 2 kids had As and Bs in algebra 1 honors/geometry honors, and 20% had Cs. (The desire to remain with cohort of peers is strong) The other 20% are kids who try to jump up from regular geometry to algebra 2 honors, and almost universally struggle to get a B or a C at the honors level, even with As in gen ed. It is a rare child who can make that jump and maintain a A. Frequently after first semester they drop back down due to Ds and Fs.

This year I only have gen ed algebra 2, but I have a handful of freshmen in the class. They all struggled with honors geometry (Cs and Ds) and so came back to gen ed for 9th grade. I was surprised there was no desire to expunge, but all families stated they didn’t want to redo geometry.

This is a pretty well regarded high school.

Then it sounds like the problem is not allowing for the acceleration, but rather allowing kids to remain in honors or on an accelerated track when the placement clearly isn't appropriate. A simple solution would be to require a retake of an accelerated class if the kid earned a C or lower. They could additionally require a B in a previous honors class to take it the following year, or an A plus teacher approval to jump from regular to honors. None of this has anything to do with allowing for Algebra in 7th or 6th grade.

Someone (you?) posted that far too many kids who take Algebra before 8th grade fall back into a less rigorous path after they reach Algebra 2. The implication was that school should be limiting acceleration much more than it already is. But no one has provided any numbers about the percent of kids in the Algebra cohort who are falling back. If a substantial number of kids are successful on the accelerated track, why hold them back because some other kids are unready?

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Anonymous wrote:Bored or great at memorizing procedures. If you look at FCPS longitudinal data regarding student enrollment in mathematics, far too many students who accelerate and take Algebra earlier than 8th grade fall back and take a less rigorous path once they reach Algebra 2. But go ahead and tell me “not your child”. Hyper-acceleration in mathematics is detrimental to students, but apparently FCPS leadership doesn’t see it this way.

Can you share a link to this? Or is this internal info only?

The data is internal, but I am sure it can be acquired through FOIA. Decisions are being made in FCPS without taking this data into account.

Since you're privy to the information: What does this less rigorous path look like? Is it Honors Algebra I in 7th, Honors Geometry in 8th, regular or Honors Algebra II in 9th, regular pre-calculus in 10th, calculus AB in 11th, and then something else? Or are they not taking calculus at all? Did they have bad grades in Algebra II? What percent of the kids in the 7th grade algebra I cohort didn't take Calculus BC in 11th grade?

Teachers on the board have said that they had plenty of 9th graders is A2H who earned Cs and had started the class having earned Bs and Cs in A1H and Geometry. People want to dismiss those accounts but they are out there.

But this is a meaningless anecdote if you don't quantify how many is "plenty." Are these teachers saying that half of their 9th grade A2H students are getting Cs and did throughout? 25%? 10%? What percent are struggling? Also, what percent have earned As throughout? What percent took Calc BC in 11th and earned As in every math class through Calculus?

Then, the next obvious question is what FCPS should do with any of this data. If some small fraction of the accelerated kids are struggling, but another fraction is knocking it out of the park, would you restrict access to everyone? Would you gatekeep the accelerated track more strongly (and by doing so prevent some kids who would have been successful from accessing the acceleration)? No matter how you try to spin things, a lot of kids are perfectly successful on the accelerated track. Should they be denied that opportunity because some kids aren't ready?

IME once kids are tracked to algebra 1 honors they stay honors unless they get a D or F. The information requires some digging (there’s not a report I can pull easily for all kids in my class to see prior math grades that I’m aware of), but when I’ve gone looking in past years it feels like 60% of honors algebra 2 kids had As and Bs in algebra 1 honors/geometry honors, and 20% had Cs. (The desire to remain with cohort of peers is strong) The other 20% are kids who try to jump up from regular geometry to algebra 2 honors, and almost universally struggle to get a B or a C at the honors level, even with As in gen ed. It is a rare child who can make that jump and maintain a A. Frequently after first semester they drop back down due to Ds and Fs.

This year I only have gen ed algebra 2, but I have a handful of freshmen in the class. They all struggled with honors geometry (Cs and Ds) and so came back to gen ed for 9th grade. I was surprised there was no desire to expunge, but all families stated they didn’t want to redo geometry.

This is a pretty well regarded high school.

Anonymous wrote:Before this pilot year, a very small group of 6th graders in the whole FCPS qualified for algebra 1. What was the criteria? Why was the pool of kids so limited before? Was it a staffing issue? Or a belief that a very high level of aptitude indicated readiness? If the latter, why are more students allowed to take algebra in 6th now?

It was small because it was up to individual principals to offer the acceleration/skipping in elementary, and most had no interest in entertaining it. There were only a handful of schools where it was possible.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Bored or great at memorizing procedures. If you look at FCPS longitudinal data regarding student enrollment in mathematics, far too many students who accelerate and take Algebra earlier than 8th grade fall back and take a less rigorous path once they reach Algebra 2. But go ahead and tell me “not your child”. Hyper-acceleration in mathematics is detrimental to students, but apparently FCPS leadership doesn’t see it this way.

Can you share a link to this? Or is this internal info only?

The data is internal, but I am sure it can be acquired through FOIA. Decisions are being made in FCPS without taking this data into account.

Since you're privy to the information: What does this less rigorous path look like? Is it Honors Algebra I in 7th, Honors Geometry in 8th, regular or Honors Algebra II in 9th, regular pre-calculus in 10th, calculus AB in 11th, and then something else? Or are they not taking calculus at all? Did they have bad grades in Algebra II? What percent of the kids in the 7th grade algebra I cohort didn't take Calculus BC in 11th grade?

Teachers on the board have said that they had plenty of 9th graders is A2H who earned Cs and had started the class having earned Bs and Cs in A1H and Geometry. People want to dismiss those accounts but they are out there.

But this is a meaningless anecdote if you don't quantify how many is "plenty." Are these teachers saying that half of their 9th grade A2H students are getting Cs and did throughout? 25%? 10%? What percent are struggling? Also, what percent have earned As throughout? What percent took Calc BC in 11th and earned As in every math class through Calculus?

Then, the next obvious question is what FCPS should do with any of this data. If some small fraction of the accelerated kids are struggling, but another fraction is knocking it out of the park, would you restrict access to everyone? Would you gatekeep the accelerated track more strongly (and by doing so prevent some kids who would have been successful from accessing the acceleration)? No matter how you try to spin things, a lot of kids are perfectly successful on the accelerated track. Should they be denied that opportunity because some kids aren't ready?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bored or great at memorizing procedures. If you look at FCPS longitudinal data regarding student enrollment in mathematics, far too many students who accelerate and take Algebra earlier than 8th grade fall back and take a less rigorous path once they reach Algebra 2. But go ahead and tell me “not your child”. Hyper-acceleration in mathematics is detrimental to students, but apparently FCPS leadership doesn’t see it this way.

Can you share a link to this? Or is this internal info only?

The data is internal, but I am sure it can be acquired through FOIA. Decisions are being made in FCPS without taking this data into account.

Since you're privy to the information: What does this less rigorous path look like? Is it Honors Algebra I in 7th, Honors Geometry in 8th, regular or Honors Algebra II in 9th, regular pre-calculus in 10th, calculus AB in 11th, and then something else? Or are they not taking calculus at all? Did they have bad grades in Algebra II? What percent of the kids in the 7th grade algebra I cohort didn't take Calculus BC in 11th grade?

Teachers on the board have said that they had plenty of 9th graders is A2H who earned Cs and had started the class having earned Bs and Cs in A1H and Geometry. People want to dismiss those accounts but they are out there.

Before this pilot year, a very small group of 6th graders in the whole FCPS qualified for algebra 1. What was the criteria? Why was the pool of kids so limited before? Was it a staffing issue? Or a belief that a very high level of aptitude indicated readiness? If the latter, why are more students allowed to take algebra in 6th now?

Anonymous wrote:I would absolutely not, I've heard it's a giant clusterf*** this year. Little brains aren't wired for Algebra in 6th grade. We are waiting.

Why do you think 6th grade brains aren't wired for algebra? Did you read an article or study supporting your opinion?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bored or great at memorizing procedures. If you look at FCPS longitudinal data regarding student enrollment in mathematics, far too many students who accelerate and take Algebra earlier than 8th grade fall back and take a less rigorous path once they reach Algebra 2. But go ahead and tell me “not your child”. Hyper-acceleration in mathematics is detrimental to students, but apparently FCPS leadership doesn’t see it this way.

Can you share a link to this? Or is this internal info only?

The data is internal, but I am sure it can be acquired through FOIA. Decisions are being made in FCPS without taking this data into account.

Since you're privy to the information: What does this less rigorous path look like? Is it Honors Algebra I in 7th, Honors Geometry in 8th, regular or Honors Algebra II in 9th, regular pre-calculus in 10th, calculus AB in 11th, and then something else? Or are they not taking calculus at all? Did they have bad grades in Algebra II? What percent of the kids in the 7th grade algebra I cohort didn't take Calculus BC in 11th grade?