Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And yet, we have no common sense gun laws.

Or requirements that people take mental competency tests and parenting classes before they procreate.

Anonymous wrote:And yet, we have no common sense gun laws.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is worse than forgetting your child in a car on a hot day, surely the consequences should be worse. But it’s America so…

So, here's my problem with that mindset: heavy punishment of parents in these cases might feel good, but it won't actually deter the bad behavior of others. It ultimately distracts from the need for changes that otherwise could have a positive effect.

But if you’d kid shot themselves at your neighbor’s house you’d be in favor of punishment no? We don’t own our children.

It's fine to say support harsh prosecution as an act of vengeance. You could even argue it is important for maintaining credibility in the legal system as a whole.

But it is ridiculous to claim it has a deterrent effect.

Punishment won't fix this problem. We need something else.

So you’d be ok if your neighbor left a gun out and your kid shot themselves. I mean why imprison people who kill their children? It happens all the time and doesn’t seem to stop anyone.

First of all, that's a different situation.

Second of all, read my post again. I'm not saying there isn't some value to imprisoning them. But I am saying you shouldn't kid yourself into thinking it would do anything to help prevent incidents like these in the future.

Well we almost never put parents in prison for leaving their kids in hot cars and they’re still doing it like gang busters. We need to value our children as full people. If someone was acting negligently with a gun and killed another adult we would charge them with manslaughter because we punish people who kill people. We need to punish people who kill kids too.

OK. I think that's a defensible position. I just think it is important to acknowledge that is based on a need for vengeance, not deterrence. The threat of prison won't deter parents from leaving guns unsecured or forgetting kids in cars. So, if in addition to satisfying your desire for vengeance you also want reduce these incidents in the future, then we'll need to do other things, too.

Vengeance is not a valid goal of the justice system. Protecting the public. Making victims whole. Those are valid.

Of course it is. The threat of imprisonment can deter bad acts. It just doesn't deter things like this situation.

Imprisonment in this case also doesn't "protect the public" nor does it make the victims "whole."

If there are other children in the family it would protect them.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is worse than forgetting your child in a car on a hot day, surely the consequences should be worse. But it’s America so…

So, here's my problem with that mindset: heavy punishment of parents in these cases might feel good, but it won't actually deter the bad behavior of others. It ultimately distracts from the need for changes that otherwise could have a positive effect.

But if you’d kid shot themselves at your neighbor’s house you’d be in favor of punishment no? We don’t own our children.

It's fine to say support harsh prosecution as an act of vengeance. You could even argue it is important for maintaining credibility in the legal system as a whole.

But it is ridiculous to claim it has a deterrent effect.

Punishment won't fix this problem. We need something else.

So you’d be ok if your neighbor left a gun out and your kid shot themselves. I mean why imprison people who kill their children? It happens all the time and doesn’t seem to stop anyone.

First of all, that's a different situation.

Second of all, read my post again. I'm not saying there isn't some value to imprisoning them. But I am saying you shouldn't kid yourself into thinking it would do anything to help prevent incidents like these in the future.

Well we almost never put parents in prison for leaving their kids in hot cars and they’re still doing it like gang busters. We need to value our children as full people. If someone was acting negligently with a gun and killed another adult we would charge them with manslaughter because we punish people who kill people. We need to punish people who kill kids too.

OK. I think that's a defensible position. I just think it is important to acknowledge that is based on a need for vengeance, not deterrence. The threat of prison won't deter parents from leaving guns unsecured or forgetting kids in cars. So, if in addition to satisfying your desire for vengeance you also want reduce these incidents in the future, then we'll need to do other things, too.

Vengeance is not a valid goal of the justice system. Protecting the public. Making victims whole. Those are valid.

Of course it is. The threat of imprisonment can deter bad acts. It just doesn't deter things like this situation.

Imprisonment in this case also doesn't "protect the public" nor does it make the victims "whole."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is worse than forgetting your child in a car on a hot day, surely the consequences should be worse. But it’s America so…

So, here's my problem with that mindset: heavy punishment of parents in these cases might feel good, but it won't actually deter the bad behavior of others. It ultimately distracts from the need for changes that otherwise could have a positive effect.

But if you’d kid shot themselves at your neighbor’s house you’d be in favor of punishment no? We don’t own our children.

It's fine to say support harsh prosecution as an act of vengeance. You could even argue it is important for maintaining credibility in the legal system as a whole.

But it is ridiculous to claim it has a deterrent effect.

Punishment won't fix this problem. We need something else.

So you’d be ok if your neighbor left a gun out and your kid shot themselves. I mean why imprison people who kill their children? It happens all the time and doesn’t seem to stop anyone.

First of all, that's a different situation.

Second of all, read my post again. I'm not saying there isn't some value to imprisoning them. But I am saying you shouldn't kid yourself into thinking it would do anything to help prevent incidents like these in the future.

Well we almost never put parents in prison for leaving their kids in hot cars and they’re still doing it like gang busters. We need to value our children as full people. If someone was acting negligently with a gun and killed another adult we would charge them with manslaughter because we punish people who kill people. We need to punish people who kill kids too.

OK. I think that's a defensible position. I just think it is important to acknowledge that is based on a need for vengeance, not deterrence. The threat of prison won't deter parents from leaving guns unsecured or forgetting kids in cars. So, if in addition to satisfying your desire for vengeance you also want reduce these incidents in the future, then we'll need to do other things, too.

Vengeance is not a valid goal of the justice system. Protecting the public. Making victims whole. Those are valid.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The headlines should really be more like,

"Yet another child dies in the US from guns"

No headline is really a shock.

It's just like, which child this week.

+1 In Japan, before you get a gun license, they do a background checks, a mental health evaluation, make sure you have attended hours of gun training and require that you buy a regulation gun safe. And they don't have 6 year olds there getting shot "accidentally" on the regular.

‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens
https://theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1848971668/

Anonymous wrote:My heart goes out to the first responder who performed CPR on a child shot in the face. That sounds so horribly traumatic.

And yeah I think whoever failed to secure the gun should be harshly prosecuted. If it turns out to be a third party like a babysitter, household guest, repairman, etc. would we just say oh they’ve suffered enough. Whoopsie move along?

The fact someone is a parent does not excuse them from criminal negligence.

And how do we know it won’t have a deterrent effect? Perhaps some major headlines about harsh prosecution and some good ole public shaming are in order. Stop coddling irresponsible gun owners.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The headlines should really be more like,

"Yet another child dies in the US from guns"

No headline is really a shock.

It's just like, which child this week.

+1 In Japan, before you get a gun license, they do a background checks, a mental health evaluation, make sure you have attended hours of gun training and require that you buy a regulation gun safe. And they don't have 6 year olds there getting shot "accidentally" on the regular.